I don't need to play with someone to judge them when they have so little HP that they get one shotted by AOEs.
All player stats should be visible. Because the game will have combat chat nobody can hide it forever. Shortly there will be parsers and then the stats can be reconstructed. Maybe not exactly but good enough.
Greetings
Niien said:Liav said:I don't need to play with someone to judge them when they have so little HP that they get one shotted by AOEs.
No one is disagreeing that you can't see someone else's health.
Health is just one example of a relevant stat check.
In EQ you have MR as well. In some games some AAs are completely worthless or very obviously inferior to other choices.
Basically, people will invariably make bad decisions with their characters and be physically unable to do certain content. I shouldn't be forced to invite someone who would otherwise be blatantly obviously not at the minimum gear/AA/whatever check. It wastes both of our time.
I personally would like to see the MMO genere move away from features that promote the need to track gear score, stat requirements or anything of that nature. I feel it encourges poor attitudes towards players and if Pantheon is trying to bring back the social aspect to MMOs its probably not something they should be looking into. But with that said this is just my own personal opinion.
To answer the OP original question, seeing a players resource bars is enough for me.
Valadin said:I personally would like to see the MMO genere move away from features that promote the need to track gear score, stat requirements or anything of that nature.
I feel it encourges poor attitudes towards players and if Pantheon is trying to bring back the social aspect to MMOs its probably not something they should be looking into. But with that said this is just my own personal opinion.
To answer the OP original question, seeing a players resource bars is enough for me.
How do you do that without eliminating gear progression, which is one of the biggest driving forces in the MMORPG genre?
The only time I see this being absolutely neccessary is for high level raiding. In that case a 'post STATS' command can be sent to the raid leader to verify pertinent information about players and their specific build. Otherwise I see no reason why some other player needs access to that information.
OakKnower said:The only time I see this being absolutely neccessary is for high level raiding. In that case a 'post STATS' command can be sent to the raid leader to verify pertinent information about players and their specific build. Otherwise I see no reason why some other player needs access to that information.
It seems like it would take more effort to implement this than to just... display the stats.
Liav said:OakKnower said:The only time I see this being absolutely neccessary is for high level raiding. In that case a 'post STATS' command can be sent to the raid leader to verify pertinent information about players and their specific build. Otherwise I see no reason why some other player needs access to that information.
It seems like it would take more effort to implement this than to just... display the stats.
I'm not sure how you measure 'more effort'. Seems it would be a rather benign programming detail.
Valadin said:I personally would like to see the MMO genere move away from features that promote the need to track gear score, stat requirements or anything of that nature. I feel it encourges poor attitudes towards players and if Pantheon is trying to bring back the social aspect to MMOs its probably not something they should be looking into. But with that said this is just my own personal opinion.
To answer the OP original question, seeing a players resource bars is enough for me.
Agreed, the tiered gear progression is what I believe turned adventuring and questing with your friends into a contest against anyone that wasn't in your group/guild. Heck I've even witnessed the same classes hating each other for no other reason than one of them rolling against them on their class loot... Just sad that that's what we think MMOs are all about today.
Aena said: ..
You must be my lost sibling! At last we meet!?.. This is going to be confusing..
On topic, i'm not fussed either way, so am all up for full /inspect functions, as i know this at least will probably satisfy most of you :)
(you CAN however expect me to say no to damage meters, e-peen mechanics, achievements and assorted bull that serve no purpose other than ego feeding. Am kinda tired of that. Your ego you get to feed out there. Where it matters. Not in games)
Niien said:Agreed, the tiered gear progression is what I believe turned adventuring and questing with your friends into a contest against anyone that wasn't in your group/guild. Heck even I've even witnessed the same classes hated each other for no other reason than one of them rolling against them on their class loot... Just sad that that's what we think MMOs are all about today.
Niien, we disagree on darn near everything but this. And I think you've hit the nail on the head. Somewhere we turned away from defeating the game as the main challenge. The main challenge has become the "Quezt for Epic Lewtz". It is sad - sad because game mechanics in most MMOs these days are all centered around building a player/gear treadmill; what they aren't centered around is building a better actual game.
xtnpd said:Niien said:Agreed, the tiered gear progression is what I believe turned adventuring and questing with your friends into a contest against anyone that wasn't in your group/guild. Heck even I've even witnessed the same classes hated each other for no other reason than one of them rolling against them on their class loot... Just sad that that's what we think MMOs are all about today.
Niien, we disagree on darn near everything but this. And I think you've hit the nail on the head. Somewhere we turned away from defeating the game as the main challenge. The main challenge has become the "Quezt for Epic Lewtz". It is sad - sad because game mechanics in most MMOs these days are all centered around building a player/gear treadmill; what they aren't centered around is building a better actual game.
I still love you though. :)
I agree with you on this point obviously, something was lost over the years and it turned our fun into a competition for no other reason than to compete with one another. I want to work together with friends not against everyone I see that's not wearing my colors. If I wanted competition I would go play a game like CS: Go with my son or LoL with my brother.
Niien said:I still love you though. :)
I agree with you on this point obviously, something was lost over the years and it turned our fun into a competition for no other reason than to compete with one another. I want to work together with friends not against everyone I see that's not wearing my colors. If I wanted competition I would go play a game like CS: Go with my son or LoL with my brother.
The issue is that this is all fine and good, but supporting the removal of the stats just alienates people who do care about those things.
It seems reasonable that if you don't want to play like that you could just simply ignore the fact that they're there.
Competition will also exist anyway independent of whether or not there is a gear treadmill or whatever.
Ultima EQ EQ2 and every other MMO has always been more about socializing. Its about playing a game some people want to play with friends some players don't care and others will only group with there guild. Everyone plays the game different but This game is bringing back more then a social game even though I feel thats one of the few things that hasnt been left behind in current MMO. It is about bringing back those hard encounters that frustrated people. Its about bringing back the hard work to get your gear not the instant gratifcation of WOW.
Seeing stats affects a lot. Some group zones should be next to impossible for all bout the best 6 man groups. Those zones You should be able to know weither the people you invite can handle it. With a death penelty it is only fair to everyone. Stats are also useful in raids as well. If you feel gear and stats leads to some anti social behavior just don't use them and group with whoever you want nothing would be stopping you. Just like nothing stops you from grouping with people outside your guild except yourself.
Much like the option to hide your class/guild/location with /roleplay or /anon, if all your stats can be seen by others just allow people the option to make them private. If joining a guild requires the guildleader or recruiter to see all your stats and where you've spent your AAs and what to which zones you have keys all just to determine how l33t you are then have the developers provide an API key akin to what EVE Online has for its characters.
But just because some random pubby wants to see my stats to join his failure-in-waiting group? Nah...he doesn't need to see it.
Liav said:Disabling the ability for people to inspect you and see your stats seems to fine to be. Worthless, but fine.
I just don't want my stats to be hidden from me, that's all I really care about.
I am fine with inspecting to see the gear and its stats but my characters personal stats should be available to oneself alone.
I dont think OP was suggesting hiding player stats from there own character.
Liav said:Disabling the ability for people to inspect you and see your stats seems to fine to be. Worthless, but fine.
I just don't want my stats to be hidden from me, that's all I really care about.
Are you meaning the equations associated with the stats and not just the numbers themselves? Like knowing that for everyone 5 points in STR above 100 for a warrior you get a 1.0015% increase in the base damage multiplier of your weapon?
Vandraad said:Liav said:Disabling the ability for people to inspect you and see your stats seems to fine to be. Worthless, but fine.
I just don't want my stats to be hidden from me, that's all I really care about.
Are you meaning the equations associated with the stats and not just the numbers themselves? Like knowing that for everyone 5 points in STR above 100 for a warrior you get a 1.0015% increase in the base damage multiplier of your weapon?
I'd like it to be as explicit as possible in the description of what the stats do. At the end of the day, if they don't, we'll be using spreadsheets, calculators, and thousands of hours of parsing to do it anyway.
Guess I should clarify as well. When it comes to viewing my own stats, then yes I should be able to see them. But not to the point in Vandraad's example. That should be left as meta play for min/max mathemagicians. I found it a nice extra for theory crafters. So while I agree what Liav says will probably happen. I dont view it as a bad thing. And I know plenty of people hate that, but I think its neat.
I will say that when examining a specific piece of gear on another player you should be able to see those stats. You know in case you are curious what the stats are on that cool looking set of boots or something. But not all of that persons stats. Other than that, resource bars (not in numbers), faction (when examined), and class (though I think this should always be obvious visually). Anything else, you can ask about.
Im also thinking if you are doing any high end content, it wont be like modern games where you take or go with anyone with a pulse. So you will more than likely only go with folks you know pretty well or with Guild mates. So you are almost asured to know what type of gear/skill they have already anyway. Thats at least the way it was in XI for me. I did high end content with Linkshell Members and trusted friends only for the most part. Might do some low or mid level content with people I dont know. Might do public events with a bunch of people I dont know. And I might get xp party with a bunch of people I dont know. I might join a trusted friend that vouches for the other people Im helping. This also sort of touches into the concept of community reputation too I think. Because if I am partied up with some well known players (have a good rep for kicking ass and taking names), then its not an issue either. Like partying up with rival guilds members for taking on story missions. You know their rep and its not competitive content so why not.
Lastly, I realize people dont always have the time for it. But in XI and Im sure must have been the case in EQ as well, people were helpful and would give advise. And many of the more experienced players took it upon themselves to educate their juniors either directly or indirectly through "How to" posts on the forums. And that gets back to community and working together. Now I will say it seems every server has one of "those" people that either cant learn or wont learn how to gear and play their class. But those people are very few and far between. Most people will learn if they dont already know with guidance and a bit of practice. I guess what Im saying is I hope this doesnt turn into the type of game where people drop out of party or raid at the smallest sign of trouble.
Amsai said:Guess I should clarify as well. When it comes to viewing my own stats, then yes I should be able to see them. But not to the point in Vandraad's example. That should be left as meta play for min/max mathemagicians. I found it a nice extra for theory crafters. So while I agree what Liav says will probably happen. I dont view it as a bad thing. And I know plenty of people hate that, but I think its neat.
I already said this in another thread but I'll say it here.
The only thing that will happen as a result of this is that it will only serve to further the discrepancy between elite players and casual players.
Player skill and knowing what buttons to push already serves this purpose. Adding several layers of math on top of the already-existing factors that exist is just pointless ambiguity. I mean, EQ2 has their stats spelled out in very concise terms, yet people still post on the forums saying that strikethrough affects mob mitigation. Obscuring the information that's already there will just serve to worsen the already existing ignorance, but at least it'll be willful ignorance instead.
Liav said:Amsai said:Guess I should clarify as well. When it comes to viewing my own stats, then yes I should be able to see them. But not to the point in Vandraad's example. That should be left as meta play for min/max mathemagicians. I found it a nice extra for theory crafters. So while I agree what Liav says will probably happen. I dont view it as a bad thing. And I know plenty of people hate that, but I think its neat.
I already said this in another thread but I'll say it here.
The only thing that will happen as a result of this is that it will only serve to further the discrepancy between elite players and casual players.
Player skill and knowing what buttons to push already serves this purpose. Adding several layers of math on top of the already-existing factors that exist is just pointless ambiguity. I mean, EQ2 has their stats spelled out in very concise terms, yet people still post on the forums saying that strikethrough affects mob mitigation. Obscuring the information that's already there will just serve to worsen the already existing ignorance, but at least it'll be willful ignorance instead.
I thought I kind of covered that in my last 2 paragraphs. Though you might disagree with me. Dont want to be left behind? Research it! Someone doesnt have a clue? Help Them!
Some mystery = good.
Theory crafting = good.
Elites = good ........ provided knowlegde and advise are shared.
Creating chance for community interactiveness = priceless.