Ten minutes still seems excessive to me even under the assumption of 0-100%. I think 5 minutes is a pretty reasonable expectation for full regen. That is about the absolute slowest I think it should be without becoming extremely tedious and lame.
Like you said, 30 seconds is also way too fast. I think people are just really underestimating how long 10 minutes is. In 10 minutes, I could drive to Taco Bell and back in the time it would take for me to regenerate to full, and that is just ridiculous.
Nimryl said:Most groups on the progress server I had seem to be like 40 mins of pulls, 5-10 minute downtime. The main bonus of having downtime is.. AFK Break time.
Nimryl, would you agree that the progression server encourages rushing to the end? I'm hoping Pantheon can entrap us in the lore and the land so that rushing to the end (max level) isn't so encouraging.
I personally feel it's a major downfall to most MMOs. Everyone is so concentrated on getting to the last level so they can start playing the game, or at least it seems that way. If we could somehow make leveling a by product and still a rewarding experience without making people feel like they are useless without being max level, I think we would be on the road to more meaningful adventures and good times to be had by everyone.
Always some folks who rush to max level despite the game or even there own intentions. I find myself doing it even when I tell myself "slow down and enjoy the ride this time!". I guess theres just to much acheiver in me. When Pantheon goes live I'm sure I'll tell myself to slow it down again.......we'll see what happens ;)
Also, Liav n Angry, now I have to go home, practice my abjuration skill and put my 0-100 regen on a damned stopwatch. You two have flipped some damn OCD switch in my head and my brain now demands to know. Thanks for that~
Garmr
Niien said:Nimryl said:Most groups on the progress server I had seem to be like 40 mins of pulls, 5-10 minute downtime. The main bonus of having downtime is.. AFK Break time.
Nimryl, would you agree that the progression server encourages rushing to the end? I'm hoping Pantheon can entrap us in the lore and the land so that rushing to the end (max level) isn't so encouraging.
I personally feel it's a major downfall to most MMOs. Everyone is so concentrated on getting to the last level so they can start playing the game, or at least it seems that way. If we could somehow make leveling a by product and still a rewarding experience without making people feel like they are useless without being max level, I think we would be on the road to more meaningful adventures and good times to be had by everyone.
I'd like to see down time required after every 4 or so group sized pulls and also after a single boss fight. This all depends on how long a group encounter takes to tackle (I'll imagine that each pull takes 5-7 minutes to tackle so 20-30 minutes of trash pulls before full depletion of mana when considering 4 encounters). So i'm going to look at it from the perspective of group play i.e content intended for a full group, such as a dungeon. I'm O.K with unmodified resource regeneration taking 10 minutes. With crafting involved such as food perhaps a "mana cookie" you regenerate the full amount in 5 minutes if you sit and eat the cookie, we can also allow for a glass of milk, and that could further cut it down to 3 minutes if your willing to put both food and drink into mana regeneration. You could also have food for health but only allow one food type at a time along with a single drink type.
Adding crafted items such as food and potions will encourage people to prepare themselves before dungeoneering with their goods be it crafted or brought, and can speed up down time at the expense of finance. We can also have mana potions that restore mana in combat in emergency situations that would obviously help against needing down time as soon as you'd usually need it. And we may also find gear drops that increases passive mana regeneration further lowering the time. And this does not even touch on classes that grant mana to other party members.
Over all I think anything ranging from 3 to 10 minutes is fine. After all you don't have to wait until your at 0 mana before you concider sitting down for a quick 30 second top up, and if you manage your mana well you may find you can keep your valuable resorces stable for longer, I belive their should always be a clear diffrence between a player than manages their resorces well and one that does not.
Garmr said:Always some folks who rush to max level despite the game or even there own intentions. I find myself doing it even when I tell myself "slow down and enjoy the ride this time!". I guess theres just to much acheiver in me. When Pantheon goes live I'm sure I'll tell myself to slow it down again.......we'll see what happens ;)
Also, Liav n Angry, now I have to go home, practice my abjuration skill and put my 0-100 regen on a damned stopwatch. You two have flipped some damn OCD switch in my head and my brain now demands to know. Thanks for that~
Garmr
I believe the biggest reason we rush to the end is because it's doable in a reasonable amount of time for the individual doing the "rushing". It's also needed due to game design as only the max level can hit x level mob. However if characters were useful before they hit max level and max level took years to attain people wouldn't be rushing to max level as "rushing" would still take years to achieve. The highest levels could still be meaningful, though they wouldn't be so overpowered that it would be needed. We would never have to max level to still complete and enjoy the content. We could enjoy the game and level while doing so. Eventually we might hit max level, though it would be at a much slower pace.
Nimryl said:Niien said:Nimryl said:Most groups on the progress server I had seem to be like 40 mins of pulls, 5-10 minute downtime. The main bonus of having downtime is.. AFK Break time.
Nimryl, would you agree that the progression server encourages rushing to the end? I'm hoping Pantheon can entrap us in the lore and the land so that rushing to the end (max level) isn't so encouraging.
I personally feel it's a major downfall to most MMOs. Everyone is so concentrated on getting to the last level so they can start playing the game, or at least it seems that way. If we could somehow make leveling a by product and still a rewarding experience without making people feel like they are useless without being max level, I think we would be on the road to more meaningful adventures and good times to be had by everyone.
To be honest, I love group grinding the most. But I do agree with you. I mean that's what a RPG is all about really, adventure and the sense of it. Exploring an ancient tomb full of boobietraps etc. Working together to pull switches at the same time, etc. I think Brad has discussed this kind of thing before.. I think it's definately the right way to go. I just hope the zones are BIG... really BIG.. but not mazes (unless it is an actual maze).
Nearly everyone rushes nowadays because its easy todo so.. not many really stop and think. It's all about the Epeen and being the "first". That's why I'm against server first messages etc and profile stats/rankings. Sure it's fun to be the first in a dungeon.. but after that it gets old fast. Should be more about the adventure and working together.
Couldn't agree more, this is what D&D and the early MMOs spawned from. It wasn't about who was able to solo the most crap or race the max level the fastest. Exploring, discovering, experiencing hardships together, overcoming obstacles, adventuring, and team work were the premise for those great times. Nothing was a rush other than in the sense of playing with your friends and downing a huge boss, completing some quest and getting a deep lore driven story, and maybe getting some cool loot!
First i do not think that it is possible to calculate downtime in a ratio of pulls to med time needed. in games like eq and VG this could be extremely different in each group, based on gear and player ability. secondly i also think that 10 mins is too long for med time. i am thinking somewhere in the 5-8 range. with the ability to use foods and such to lower it into the 2-3 area. once you start getting into the 10 min+ downtimes people lose focus and end up watching TV during the med breaks, then getting involved trying to watch TV and play at the same time.
If you are completely unbuffed and OOM then I dont think 10 mins is that long of a wait
If there are some serious mana regen spells in game (Kei or such), maybe self buffs, bard mana song going too...Flowing thought on your equipment, im sure you can pull that down to under 5. if you start at 5 with all the (hopefully) buffs in game than you pretty much reduce downtime to zero.
Sevens said:If you are completely unbuffed and OOM then I dont think 10 mins is that long of a wait
If there are some serious mana regen spells in game (Kei or such), maybe self buffs, bard mana song going too...Flowing thought on your equipment, im sure you can pull that down to under 5. if you start at 5 with all the (hopefully) buffs in game than you pretty much reduce downtime to zero.
Then you need to balance the regeneration buffs so it only reduces the downtime by 50% at most. It's simple math. If it reduces downtime to nearly zero then tweak the numbers. That is trivial for a developer.
Liav said:Sevens said:If you are completely unbuffed and OOM then I dont think 10 mins is that long of a wait
If there are some serious mana regen spells in game (Kei or such), maybe self buffs, bard mana song going too...Flowing thought on your equipment, im sure you can pull that down to under 5. if you start at 5 with all the (hopefully) buffs in game than you pretty much reduce downtime to zero.
Then you need to balance the regeneration buffs so it only reduces the downtime by 50% at most. It's simple math. If it reduces downtime to nearly zero then tweak the numbers. That is trivial for a developer.
Why would 50% be the magic number? Should it still be 50% with 2 people in a group or 8 people? What about a group with 4 healers and 4 ranged casters, or just 1 caster? I believe the last thing it is is trivial.
My whole point was....
If you set the bar for regen to be high then people will be more willing to group up so that they have access to more regen buffs
If I solo and it takes 10 mins to regen to full then 5 mins in a group sounds like a good deal
And there is no magic percent, those were arbitrary numbers I used because they had been used before in the post. The whole point of a long downtime is to encourage grouping.
Sevens said:My whole point was....
If you set the bar for regen to be high then people will be more willing to group up so that they have access to more regen buffs
If I solo and it takes 10 mins to regen to full then 5 mins in a group sounds like a good deal
And there is no magic percent, those were arbitrary numbers I used because they had been used before in the post. The whole point of a long downtime is to encourage grouping.
Agreed friends make the fight easier and less risky. I support that. My comment wasn't directed at you Sevens. I'm just curious where Liav gets the magical and trivial 50% from.
Niien said:Sevens said:My whole point was....
If you set the bar for regen to be high then people will be more willing to group up so that they have access to more regen buffs
If I solo and it takes 10 mins to regen to full then 5 mins in a group sounds like a good deal
And there is no magic percent, those were arbitrary numbers I used because they had been used before in the post. The whole point of a long downtime is to encourage grouping.
Agreed friends make the fight easier and less risky. I support that. My comment wasn't directed at you Sevens. I'm just curious where Liav gets the magical and trivial 50% from.
I understand, and I realized that...I was just clearing up for anyone that my numbers were just arbitrary. If you can pull for 30 or so mins before having to have a med break...and this was quite easy in EQ if you played well, then a 5 min break (if buffed) is not to long. Now if you want to solo and just rely on self buffs, yeah you should spend most of your time sitting on your butt medding
Sevens said:Niien said:Sevens said:My whole point was....
If you set the bar for regen to be high then people will be more willing to group up so that they have access to more regen buffs
If I solo and it takes 10 mins to regen to full then 5 mins in a group sounds like a good deal
And there is no magic percent, those were arbitrary numbers I used because they had been used before in the post. The whole point of a long downtime is to encourage grouping.
Agreed friends make the fight easier and less risky. I support that. My comment wasn't directed at you Sevens. I'm just curious where Liav gets the magical and trivial 50% from.
I understand, and I realized that...I was just clearing up for anyone that my numbers were just arbitrary. If you can pull for 30 or so mins before having to have a med break...and this was quite easy in EQ if you played well, then a 5 min break (if buffed) is not to long. Now if you want to solo and just rely on self buffs, yeah you should spend most of your time sitting on your butt medding
I get what you are saying. I still think 10 minutes is a bit too long but I could dig it taking a bit longer when soloing. Maybe a way to work it is that health and mana regen slower when both need to regen and when solo you are more likely to need to regen both.
The part that I take issue with is the 5 minutes "buffed", because all that does is severely punish people who don't have buffs. The point that I'm getting at is that 10 minutes is simply extreme. I don't know where the line is, but I know that 10 minutes is just a patently absurd amount of time to be locked out of playing your character. Even if it was 10 minutes back in 1999, 2016 is not 1999 and copying downtime directly from EQ is not necessarily the best choice.
Liav said:The part that I take issue with is the 5 minutes "buffed", because all that does is severely punish people who don't have buffs. The point that I'm getting at is that 10 minutes is simply extreme. I don't know where the line is, but I know that 10 minutes is just a patently absurd amount of time to be locked out of playing your character. Even if it was 10 minutes back in 1999, 2016 is not 1999 and copying downtime directly from EQ is not necessarily the best choice.
I believe that 10 minutes could work if it was spread out through a few battles. Though none of us will know until we get more information or actually get a chance to play the game.
ar·bi·trar·y
ˈärbəˌtrerē/
adjective
adjective: arbitrary
based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system.
5 mins was just a number...it could be 2 mins, you are getting hung up on ARBITRARY numbers...the point is that a longer downtime should promote grouping. If you want to solo then you should have a slower harder time of it. If you dont have the buffs then you adjust your playstyle, its what we did way back then. In Bastion of Thunder as a cleric it could be hard healing even with KEI or better buffs...the mobs hit too fast and too hard so you almost NEEDED a slower in group, if you didnt have that then you usually ran with 2 healers...you adjusted. It was slower but still 100% doable
I understand that a longer downtime promotes grouping, however, throwing "arbitrary" numbers into the mix simply convolutes the conversation because it's not always simple to tell when the suggestion is arbitrary. I won't say that this topic requires precision, but we need to lay down some real world expectations for how we think the flow of the game is going to work. Either that, or we can just hold off on this discussion until beta. Idk.
Garmr said:
Also, Liav n Angry, now I have to go home, practice my abjuration skill and put my 0-100 regen on a damned stopwatch. You two have flipped some damn OCD switch in my head and my brain now demands to know. Thanks for that~
Garmr
5 MINUTES unbuffed 27 SK Ogre, sitting 0-100% mana
Liav said:I understand that a longer downtime promotes grouping, however, throwing "arbitrary" numbers into the mix simply convolutes the conversation because it's not always simple to tell when the suggestion is arbitrary. I won't say that this topic requires precision, but we need to lay down some real world expectations for how we think the flow of the game is going to work. Either that, or we can just hold off on this discussion until beta. Idk.
Really dude? seriously?
Go back and read all the post before me...EVERYONE was saying 10 mins. I, as I said in my original post, only used it because that is the number everyone else was using....Even you.
Once again the numbers are for the DEV team to decide and for the testers to weigh in on....all we can use are arbitrary numbers which are in now way important. what is important is that the downtime unbuffed is long enough (HOWEVER LONG THAT IS) to encourage people to group up to make the downtime minimul.