Sevens said:I guess the tl:dr version is that a lack of content that required social interaction is what broke the social aspect of Everquest, atleast in the group setting. It still very much existed within guilds.
@ Elrandir
In your opinion, do you think the Guild structure in MMORPGs have hurt the genre overall? Maybe they promote a more closed off gaming experience as opposed to a more open one if there were no guilds?
If so, do you see any way to maybe fix the situation? maybe the open guild system like in GW2?
If not how would you maybe help players to expand outside the comfort zone of their guild...to maybe make people more interactive sinlgulary in the wider world?
Actually, yes i think guild structures have hurt the genre somewhat indirectly. I have been in one of the top EQ1 (raiding) and DAoC (both raiding and PvP) guild during most of my time in both those games and i found myself grouping solely with those players or other players in top raiding guilds because at that point in the game, it has become more about leveling, farming, PvP efficiency than social interaction. Even if i am not grouped with my guildmates, most of my social interaction is with them via and close group of friends outside of the guild via chat and VOIP. In games where i had no desire to be in a top end guild or "be hardcore"; WoW, Rift, ESO, etc. i found myself much more A) willing to play with a wider variety of people outside my normal social circles and B) found myself much more tolerant of less skilled players. Never really thought about that until you asked Elrandir that question.
Kalgore said:So I have seen in several posts that certain features break the social aspect of a game so I have 2 questions
1: What is your idea of a Social Game
2: What features in MMO helped break it. Please use real examples from games and not just a blind Trading houses broke it because I said so.
For me Social is grouping with friends questing raiding PVPing with them all the time chatting in Vent or Teamspeak. I never considered how I sold stuff to be social because I didnt really care about the person I sold to I just need some coin. Same with PUGS I might group with you because im bored doesnt mean I will always be social. So for me Social is what you do with friends of guildmates and all the time you spend with these people sometimes you will spend years talking to these peoples. Hell I have even gone skiiing with guildmates IRL.
One feature that is tough for me is travelling. Playing EVE and sometimes having to travel an hour just to meet up with someone was retarded and nothing turned me off then a super long travel system. Many times I would be like well lets do this later and Ill slowly move my ship closer. game worlds are getting bigger and bigger and travel on foot isnt always an option. A lot of people don;t want to spend an hour waiting for the 6th groupmate to arrive. In MMO where travel is a time consuming thing the First question is Class/lvl second question is Where are you? EQ and EQ2 had a decent balance some classes could port some could increase run speed there was boats that would get you to Kunark but once there you had to run to get to most places in that zone. Some times it still took 20 minutes even with faster modes of travel.
Now I do 100 percent agree with a LFG system Like WOW/ESO that auto makes groups and ports you to a dungeon is horrible. a simple /LFG and a board that says who is looking for group with there class and level. That plus a shout in global chat lvl 50 Crusader LFG is more then enough.
I am far more worried about dumbing down content in a game then losing the ability to converse with some darkelf I dont know
MMORPG's have always had social aspects.
That is a big part of the game, is playing the part and role playing in both combat and in the tavern. When you SEE someone wearing a new bracer from the last time you saw them... you ran up and greet them (and got close) so that you could INSPECT them, to see what they were wearing.. and inquire, etc. (Some really good role playing stories could arise at moments like this.)
But in early EQ you had the ability to use a spell called IDENTIFY to further unlock the origins of an item. The spell's use was quickly thrown away and forgotten, but always had HUUGE social application if done right threw the crafting circles.
Social interaction stems from activity, & the breeding of activity (cities, market places, taverns, trail heads, etc) are the staple social aspect of MMORPGs...
That said, MMORPG have nothing to do with "social gaming". All social games derived from early MUDS and are specifically aimed at youth and others who are trying to establish themsevles socially and not on elements of content. To some, that establishment is in-and-of-itself, thee game... to them!
Ironically, One can hang out on Vent or TeamSpeak while doing anything. You do not need a game in front of your face to use those social voice rooms for whatever you seek socially. People are social beings and just because they game, does not mean the don't hike/backpack. If two like-minded individuals want to do the same thing, they can meet up. There are social aspect to everything, it is inevitable that a MMORPG will lead to a social gathering of players.
ie: SOE Fan Faire
And as for the traveling thing... MMORPG's are not about "what you want to do"... it is based on "what you are prepared to do"..
Sevens said:In your opinion, do you think the Guild structure in MMORPGs have hurt the genre overall? Maybe they promote a more closed off gaming experience as opposed to a more open one if there were no guilds?
I think that guilds, and the in-game features added to support them, were a natural progression of the games' evolution. While they do tend to isolate portions of the community to a degree, I don't think it's any more so than other features, like say a 'friends-list.' Subpopulations are bound to form within the community and that's going to happen with or without the existence of a guild structure.
I think the problem revolves more around the nature of progression. In the early days of Everquest advancement occured almost exclusively at the group level. Today's game is directed at two separate populations--groupers and raiders. Around the time I quit I was in a guild that raided 13 hours a week. That was the majority of my play time, and I spent very little time online outside of scheduled raids.
Grouping is something that can be done more or less on the fly. It's not that hard to get 6 people together and focused on a specific task. Raiding required set schedules, large allocations of time and the risk involved meant you were not likely going to invite random players to come along which means interaction with the bulk of the community was limited.
I'm not advocating for or against raiding here, I'm just saying that the design elements that go into supporting it (large amounts of development resources, rewards that trivialize group content, and functionality that segregates the community--guild chat, guild halls, etc.) may work against fostering a greater sense of community.
Elrandir said:Sevens said:In your opinion, do you think the Guild structure in MMORPGs have hurt the genre overall? Maybe they promote a more closed off gaming experience as opposed to a more open one if there were no guilds?
I think that guilds, and the in-game features added to support them, were a natural progression of the games' evolution. While they do tend to isolate portions of the community to a degree, I don't think it's any more so than other features, like say a 'friends-list.' Subpopulations are bound to form within the community and that's going to happen with or without the existence of a guild structure.
I think the problem revolves more around the nature of progression. In the early days of Everquest advancement occured almost exclusively at the group level. Today's game is directed at two separate populations--groupers and raiders. Around the time I quit I was in a guild that raided 13 hours a week. That was the majority of my play time, and I spent very little time online outside of scheduled raids.
Grouping is something that can be done more or less on the fly. It's not that hard to get 6 people together and focused on a specific task. Raiding required set schedules, large allocations of time and the risk involved meant you were not likely going to invite random players to come along which means interaction with the bulk of the community was limited.
I'm not advocating for or against raiding here, I'm just saying that the design elements that go into supporting it (large amounts of development resources, rewards that trivialize group content, and functionality that segregates the community--guild chat, guild halls, etc.) may work against fostering a greater sense of community.
While I will agree that subsets of the population will occur naturally...I dont think they would divide the community as much as Guilds do simply because the games build in a support infastructure for guilds. I hope no one thinks im anti guild, im not, Im just wondering if they might have a detrimental affect on the community at large.
Reht said:Sevens said:I guess the tl:dr version is that a lack of content that required social interaction is what broke the social aspect of Everquest, atleast in the group setting. It still very much existed within guilds.
@ Elrandir
In your opinion, do you think the Guild structure in MMORPGs have hurt the genre overall? Maybe they promote a more closed off gaming experience as opposed to a more open one if there were no guilds?
If so, do you see any way to maybe fix the situation? maybe the open guild system like in GW2?
If not how would you maybe help players to expand outside the comfort zone of their guild...to maybe make people more interactive sinlgulary in the wider world?
Actually, yes i think guild structures have hurt the genre somewhat indirectly. I have been in one of the top EQ1 (raiding) and DAoC (both raiding and PvP) guild during most of my time in both those games and i found myself grouping solely with those players or other players in top raiding guilds because at that point in the game, it has become more about leveling, farming, PvP efficiency than social interaction. Even if i am not grouped with my guildmates, most of my social interaction is with them via and close group of friends outside of the guild via chat and VOIP. In games where i had no desire to be in a top end guild or "be hardcore"; WoW, Rift, ESO, etc. i found myself much more A) willing to play with a wider variety of people outside my normal social circles and B) found myself much more tolerant of less skilled players. Never really thought about that until you asked Elrandir that question.
So, any ideas on how to avoid this? Should guilds go the way of the dodo bird? Is limiting the size of a guild helpful? or should it just be left alone to run its course?
Sevens said:While I will agree that subsets of the population will occur naturally...I dont think they would divide the community as much as Guilds do simply because the games build in a support infastructure for guilds. I hope no one thinks im anti guild, im not, Im just wondering if they might have a detrimental affect on the community at large.
That may be the case. It definitely warrants more discussion.
Elrandir said:Sevens said:While I will agree that subsets of the population will occur naturally...I dont think they would divide the community as much as Guilds do simply because the games build in a support infastructure for guilds. I hope no one thinks im anti guild, im not, Im just wondering if they might have a detrimental affect on the community at large.
That may be the case. It definitely warrants more discussion.
What do we really need to guild up for? Certainly not raids. Most mechanics necessary to raid are already implemented out of game (Calendar, VOIP, attendence/dkp, OpenRaid). The in-game need is only super-grouping. Extending group loot/drop/flag systems to apply to a group of groups is sufficient for the game to then take a hands-off approach to guilds.
The problem is when there's significant mechanical advantage to guild membership. Fast travel, housing, bank space, trades, lfg: the guild mechanic creates a "do it here first" subsystem that rarely leaks out to the greater community. Moreover, the more successful a guild is, the LESS need to be part of the greater community. And since guilds self-select, they push bad apples disproportionately into the PUG arena increasing negative social interactions for new/non-raiding players. This ultimately leads to the game being percieved as having a "toxic community" since there's not enough good voices in general chat to outweigh the unguilded bad voices.
When assembling a group, we'll always pick friends first. Lets just make LFG the next stop instead of gchat or other private chat channels. Raiding will sort itself out.
Back in my day *shakes cane in air at the whippersnappers in this discussion* you cared about the groups you joined. So say you zoned into a zone and shouted for a group. A tell might come along saying "come to camp so-and-so, we have room". And you'd send a tell back saying that you were new to the zone and that you weren't sure where camp so-and-so was. So your contact would say "just a sec, will send our ranger to come guide you".
Said ranger would show up and say "follow me. watch out for this and that and the other and don't stop even if you get hit." And you'd book it to this new and exciting camp where you'd often have a mob or two in tow telling the group to be on watch you were incoming. And they brought you in alive and the fight was on.
And two hours would pass and you'd look at the clock in this thing called the real world and realize it was 1:30 in the morning and you had work the next day and you'd tell the group, "this is my half hour warning, I have work in the morning."
And you would look for a replacement so that the group could continue. You watched for another zone shout or you contacted people on your friends list and told them of this really great xp group that was about to have an open slot, can you get here? Then when the replacement got to the group, you dropped and s/he took your place and the world went on and you most likely ended up on at least one new friends list that night.
My opinion on what broke these social interactions is twofold: we ceased to live in a real online world with real people behind virtual representations and started playing games with all the conveniences that made dealing with real people unnecessary and mmorpg gaming became about money instead of the game due to companies looking at games as revenue instead of people.
Kalgore said:Getting rid of guilds is a good way to kill your game real fast. It wasnt an issue in the older MMO why would it all of a sudden be an Issue?
Yeah, getting rid of guilds is just yet another suggestion in a long line of them that is actually regressive from the nearly-two-decade-old game that Pantheon is attempting to appeal to.
Raiding will not "sort itself out". Guilds are a tried and true mechanic that works. Getting rid of guilds or minimizing them seems completely counterintuitive to the social aspect of the game that everyone is vying for.
Liav said:Kalgore said:Getting rid of guilds is a good way to kill your game real fast. It wasnt an issue in the older MMO why would it all of a sudden be an Issue?
Yeah, getting rid of guilds is just yet another suggestion in a long line of them that is actually regressive from the nearly-two-decade-old game that Pantheon is attempting to appeal to.
Raiding will not "sort itself out". Guilds are a tried and true mechanic that works. Getting rid of guilds or minimizing them seems completely counterintuitive to the social aspect of the game that everyone is vying for.
I agree. Not only that its in a guild you take those people that you chat with every now and then and turn them into what could be real friends you are always grouping with. Just like in the real world some people will be left out to form there own type social circle. I for one want to be part of the best that means the casual player or clueless player wouldnt be in my guild but I wouldnt group with them more then once anyway.
Kalgore said:I agree. Not only that its in a guild you take those people that you chat with every now and then and turn them into what could be real friends you are always grouping with. Just like in the real world some people will be left out to form there own type social circle. I for one want to be part of the best that means the casual player or clueless player wouldnt be in my guild but I wouldnt group with them more then once anyway.
Pretty much, yeah. That's the one aspect I always liked.
When you see someone with a specific guild tag, there is an implied level of quality assigned to that player. Having an inclusive guild roster also allows strict quality control of the guild that can't be easily extended to groups, chat channels, etc.
Having a specific guild tag can many times be equally or more prestigious as having epic weapons or other valuable items. This is obviously only applicable to top end guilds but you've already said that yourself.
Kalgore said:Getting rid of guilds is a good way to kill your game real fast. It wasnt an issue in the older MMO why would it all of a sudden be an Issue?
This is in no way an argument to get rid of guilds...just that if the impact they have had on mmos has been more positive or negative. There is no way any game is getting rid of guilds, thats stupid in the extreme...but is there a way to improve guilds so they arent so self contained, thats what we are discussing....you know, innovating
Sevens said:Kalgore said:Getting rid of guilds is a good way to kill your game real fast. It wasnt an issue in the older MMO why would it all of a sudden be an Issue?
This is in no way an argument to get rid of guilds...just that if the impact they have had on mmos has been more positive or negative. There is no way any game is getting rid of guilds, thats stupid in the extreme...but is there a way to improve guilds so they arent so self contained, thats what we are discussing....you know, innovating
What purpose is there in making guilds any less self contained, though? That's their entire purpose, the same way a group is self contained or a private server on Ventrilo is self contained.
I understand the desire to make a game social but you have to give people ways to isolate from eachother as well. Throwing people together who don't want to associate with eachother for various reasons is a quick way to lead to some extreme toxicity.
I don't see this suggestion as an "improvement", quite the opposite.
Liav said:Sevens said:Kalgore said:Getting rid of guilds is a good way to kill your game real fast. It wasnt an issue in the older MMO why would it all of a sudden be an Issue?
This is in no way an argument to get rid of guilds...just that if the impact they have had on mmos has been more positive or negative. There is no way any game is getting rid of guilds, thats stupid in the extreme...but is there a way to improve guilds so they arent so self contained, thats what we are discussing....you know, innovating
What purpose is there in making guilds any less self contained, though? That's their entire purpose, the same way a group is self contained or a private server on Ventrilo is self contained.
I understand the desire to make a game social but you have to give people ways to isolate from eachother as well. Throwing people together who don't want to associate with eachother for various reasons is a quick way to lead to some extreme toxicity.
I don't see this suggestion as an "improvement", quite the opposite.
There was never a suggestion, I had asked a few questions based on what another poster had said, thats all...No call for the disbanding of guilds. The discussion was IF there was anyway (or even if it was a good idea) to improve the over all social aspects of guild in regard to the larger community
Sevens said:There was never a suggestion, I had asked a few questions based on what another poster had said, thats all...No call for the disbanding of guilds. The discussion was IF there was anyway (or even if it was a good idea) to improve the over all social aspects of guild in regard to the larger community
I understand what you're asking, but it's helpful to know why you're asking to be able to discuss it.
When someone asks if something can be "improved" the underlying implication is there there is a flaw or undesirable characteristic to begin with. Otherwise we're just spitballing any number of random changes we could make to the guild mechanic.
About the guild thing i think a system from a few games could work nicely without getting rid of the major aspects of guilds and the social features they bring, one thing that hurts social aspects of games is the idea of the disconected raiding guild.
If you join a big raiding guild it tends that you keep to your self or your close group of friend list friends this is because you must be in this guild (which in my experiances outside of raid night are often very dead) and thus the game can seem smaller and extremely lonely compared to when you were in your leveling guild with all your silly buddies. i think systems that have been used in ffxi gw2 and even ffxiv to an extent work, well these systems are guilds and sub channels you can join and leave at a moments notice and have lots of at the same time.
sub guilds (or linkshells from ffxi and xiv) worked very well for this allowing you to be flexable in the people you just wanted to hang out with without locking you into the whole (im a raider thus i must keep my self mysterious) that ive seen in many mmos to date.
this means if you meet some one you like you can join their "guild" so to speak to meet their friends without worring about losing your static groups or the staus quo that you had before. ofc this doesnt always work mind you but it is an idea at least.
quick edit as i forgot somthing, i personally used a system like this in ffxiv and it worked out really well for me. i was able to stay with all my buddies but also branch out and meet new people and close friends i never would have if the basic one guild system was in place
What about innovating the friends list into an additional structure or substructure? Obviously it wouldn't be as formal and involved as the guild system. Instead, beef up the functionality of the friends list and give it a bit more design with the goal to keep player accessiblity maximized whether you're in guild or not?
OakKnower said:What about innovating the friends list into an additional structure or substructure? Obviously it wouldn't be as formal and involved as the guild system. Instead, beef up the functionality of the friends list and give it a bit more design with the goal to keep player accessiblity maximized whether you're in guild or not?
Not everyone who raids with eachother are friends, so I'd rather not pollute my friend's list with a bunch of tools. I've raided with my fair share of undesirables simply to the end of clearing content and not really wanting to interact with them beyond that.
I've been in 1-2 guilds as well where I liked just about everybody there. Either way, it is laughably unnecessary to do away with the guild mechanic. I can't emphasize this enough.
@Sevens
You do raise a good point with guilds, but, regardless if guilds existed or not, players would form clicks based off skill level, familiarity, friends lists, etc. and would form the same subcultures where people would intermingle exclusively even with the lack of a formal system. The only thing missing would be the convenience of the UI elements, chat, etc. I also think it depends on the player as well. Even while I was guilded I joined many pick-up groups; whereas, I knew others who viewed the guild as an exclusive tag and only wanted to group with other guildies that they viewed were up to par - similar to Liav's stance.
But, I do think there are areas where Pantheon could be innovative and/or more social with guilds. I hope Pantheon has guild halls within the world versus instanced zones like EQ where players could visit. And, like most fast travel things, not include items like ports through a guild hall like EQ ultimately did. And, any items, vendors etc. that were in the guild hall I would want to be crafted, obtained, etc. and not just magically appear. It could also be a place where players traveled to buy items from that specific guild, etc. with shops and vendors set up.
Further, to Akailo's point, it would be interesting to test how sub-guilds could work. I always liked the idea of having a Thieves Guild, Warrior's Guild, etc. and not just training at the guildmaster. It could be a guild exclusive to class/races, but, still more opportunity to meet others. And, I could see many epic sprawling quests spanning out of the guilds.
And, back on topic, /agreed with Xtnpd & Krixus
Raidan said:@Sevens
You do raise a good point with guilds, but, regardless if guilds existed or not, players would form clicks based off skill level, familiarity, friends lists, etc. and would form the same subcultures where people would intermingle exclusively even with the lack of a formal system. The only thing missing would be the convenience of the UI elements, chat, etc. I also think it depends on the player as well. Even while I was guilded I joined many pick-up groups; whereas, I knew others who viewed the guild as an exclusive tag and only wanted to group with other guildies that they viewed were up to par - similar to Liav's stance.
But, I do think there are areas where Pantheon could be innovative and/or more social with guilds. I hope Pantheon has guild halls within the world versus instanced zones like EQ where players could visit. And, like most fast travel things, not include items like ports through a guild hall like EQ ultimately did. And, any items, vendors etc. that were in the guild hall I would want to be crafted, obtained, etc. and not just magically appear. It could also be a place where players traveled to buy items from that specific guild, etc. with shops and vendors set up.
Further, to Akailo's point, it would be interesting to test how sub-guilds could work. I always liked the idea of having a Thieves Guild, Warrior's Guild, etc. and not just training at the guildmaster. It could be a guild exclusive to class/races, but, still more opportunity to meet others. And, I could see many epic sprawling quests spanning out of the guilds.
And, back on topic, /agreed with Xtnpd & Krixus
I loved the guild halls in EQ2 we spent thousands upon thousands of plat decorating it so when peple came to visit they were awestruck with the grandness of it. So many members became woodworkers to help make it a grand palace of badassness.
@ Akailo
I like the idea of the subguild. Sounds similar to my thought, more formal and structured but it's not on par with a main guild.
@ Liav
Polluting your friends list should be entirely up to you. Or not. I'm glad you agree that it's unnecessary to do away with the guild mechanic. At least as it is more or less as it's ever been.
Kalgore said:I loved the guild halls in EQ2 we spent thousands upon thousands of plat decorating it so when peple came to visit they were awestruck with the grandness of it. So many members became woodworkers to help make it a grand palace of badassness.
Honestly I never liked the idea of guild halls. Any game I've played with guild halls just ends up taking players out of the persistent world and putting them in their safe guild instances when they're afk.
It also has the unfortunate side effect of making cities/social hubs into ghost towns for the aforementioned reason(s).
Liav said:OakKnower said:What about innovating the friends list into an additional structure or substructure? Obviously it wouldn't be as formal and involved as the guild system. Instead, beef up the functionality of the friends list and give it a bit more design with the goal to keep player accessiblity maximized whether you're in guild or not?
Not everyone who raids with eachother are friends, so I'd rather not pollute my friend's list with a bunch of tools. I've raided with my fair share of undesirables simply to the end of clearing content and not really wanting to interact with them beyond that.
I've been in 1-2 guilds as well where I liked just about everybody there. Either way, it is laughably unnecessary to do away with the guild mechanic. I can't emphasize this enough.
Jeez dude, come on....
No one is asking to do away with guilds...we are just discussing different ways on how guilds could be more social in regards to the general community...Thats it, nothing more. I cant emphasize this enough we are not trying to do away with guilds