Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Grinding in MMORPGs

    • 9115 posts
    February 15, 2016 4:11 AM PST

    A dreaded word to some but music to others' ears, what are your thoughts on grinding any type of content in MMORPGs? :)

    • 110 posts
    February 15, 2016 4:27 AM PST

    I enjoy it personally. Last night I was in an xp camp for 5 hours just grinding away (EQ1 Phinny server) and bullshitting with new people I'd met that were in my group. It can be relaxing and fun as long as you dont think of it as a grind and think it more a social oppotunity to meet folks. Hoping Pantheon has the same. I want xp to be slow and grindy.

     

    Garmr

    • 126 posts
    February 15, 2016 4:39 AM PST

    For me it depends on the kind of grind. I like faction grind or xp grind, and I could just kill mobs for hours. What I absolut dread is quest grinding: going from questhub to questhub and working through the quests there, then moving to next hub and rinse repeat. The horror for me.

    • 563 posts
    February 15, 2016 4:40 AM PST

    I personally enjoy grinding, whether it be one of the ways in which to gain experience, to farm a certain loot drop, or for faction reputation etc. As Garmr said, I find it can be quite relaxing and enjoyable.

     

    Rachael

    • 96 posts
    February 15, 2016 4:47 AM PST

    Grinding being the primary way of leveling creates an environment where you can socialize. If grinding remains at the core of progression then you would have questing, farming, crafting etc. as alternate steps. Everything always reverts to some sort of grind none the less keeping the core value of the game in place.

    In terms of progressions i.e (getting gear, getting better etc.) You should only go far with grinding only, questing must be an alternate harder method.

    I may have veered slightly off the OP's topic but, generally speaking it really depends on the game itself. In a game where grinding is the pre-determined method of betterment then that's what you do, as simple as that. Take a game like most all MMORPG's now days, questing is the primary resource. There may only be rare cases where farming something would allow you to progress/level quicker. Per mob xp rates in these scenarios versus quest farming is just not viable.

    Obviously it's going to depend on how the developers want you to play as to how you will choose to play, at least efficiently. Grinding gameplay = more suited for social and grouping elements, more non-linear. Non-grinding gameplay = solo player, linear, LFG tool etc etc.

     

    My thoughts!

    -War

    • 308 posts
    February 15, 2016 5:31 AM PST

    From a gameplay perspective, it can artifically slow the leveling game down more than quest driven leveling for most people, which gives the players more time and opportunaity to actually socialize.  In the quest driven game you spend a good portion of your time just running back and forth to new quest givers and completeing quest steps (WoW style games) and your exp efficiency is based upon fast you can go and is less dependent upon spawn rate, resource management, etc. offering less opportunity for most players to socialize in-game because there is less incentive to group.  

    Grinding based leveling is also much more forgiving when you have a group of players who are at different stages of progression whereas quest driven leveling can be incredibly inflexible when members of the same group can't get and complete the same quests as other members.

    • 9115 posts
    February 15, 2016 5:39 AM PST

    Garmr said:

    I enjoy it personally. Last night I was in an xp camp for 5 hours just grinding away (EQ1 Phinny server) and bullshitting with new people I'd met that were in my group. It can be relaxing and fun as long as you dont think of it as a grind and think it more a social oppotunity to meet folks. Hoping Pantheon has the same. I want xp to be slow and grindy.

     

    Garmr

    Yeah, I agree man :)

    • 9115 posts
    February 15, 2016 5:40 AM PST

    Duffy said:

    For me it depends on the kind of grind. I like faction grind or xp grind, and I could just kill mobs for hours. What I absolut dread is quest grinding: going from questhub to questhub and working through the quests there, then moving to next hub and rinse repeat. The horror for me.

    Yeah, I hear you Duffy :)

    • 9115 posts
    February 15, 2016 5:42 AM PST

    Rachael said:

    I personally enjoy grinding, whether it be one of the ways in which to gain experience, to farm a certain loot drop, or for faction reputation etc. As Garmr said, I find it can be quite relaxing and enjoyable.

     

    Rachael

    I'm exactly the same Rachael, I may even be a bit more crazy on grinding than the average person but I see it as a way to make progress, make friends, switch off and relax a bit and generally enjoy talking with other players while killing stuff! :)

    • 9115 posts
    February 15, 2016 5:44 AM PST

    Warlored said:

    Grinding being the primary way of leveling creates an environment where you can socialize. If grinding remains at the core of progression then you would have questing, farming, crafting etc. as alternate steps. Everything always reverts to some sort of grind none the less keeping the core value of the game in place.

    In terms of progressions i.e (getting gear, getting better etc.) You should only go far with grinding only, questing must be an alternate harder method.

    I may have veered slightly off the OP's topic but, generally speaking it really depends on the game itself. In a game where grinding is the pre-determined method of betterment then that's what you do, as simple as that. Take a game like most all MMORPG's now days, questing is the primary resource. There may only be rare cases where farming something would allow you to progress/level quicker. Per mob xp rates in these scenarios versus quest farming is just not viable.

    Obviously it's going to depend on how the developers want you to play as to how you will choose to play, at least efficiently. Grinding gameplay = more suited for social and grouping elements, more non-linear. Non-grinding gameplay = solo player, linear, LFG tool etc etc.

     

    My thoughts!

    -War

    That is an interesting take on it War, questing isn't going to be very big in PRF, there will be the odd one here and there with a few really epic questline and some main quests of course but you won't be able to quest your way to max level, you will need to grind, do dungeon runs, raids etc to get you the bulk of the way there and hopefully finding new friends and fun experiences along the way! ;)

    • 9115 posts
    February 15, 2016 5:45 AM PST

    Reht said:

    From a gameplay perspective, it can artifically slow the leveling game down more than quest driven leveling for most people, which gives the players more time and opportunaity to actually socialize.  In the quest driven game you spend a good portion of your time just running back and forth to new quest givers and completeing quest steps (WoW style games) and your exp efficiency is based upon fast you can go and is less dependent upon spawn rate, resource management, etc. offering less opportunity for most players to socialize in-game because there is less incentive to group.  

    Grinding based leveling is also much more forgiving when you have a group of players who are at different stages of progression whereas quest driven leveling can be incredibly inflexible when members of the same group can't get and complete the same quests as other members.

    Yeah, good points Reht :)

    • 96 posts
    February 15, 2016 5:48 AM PST

    Kilsin said:

    Warlored said:

    Grinding being the primary way of leveling creates an environment where you can socialize. If grinding remains at the core of progression then you would have questing, farming, crafting etc. as alternate steps. Everything always reverts to some sort of grind none the less keeping the core value of the game in place.

    In terms of progressions i.e (getting gear, getting better etc.) You should only go far with grinding only, questing must be an alternate harder method.

    I may have veered slightly off the OP's topic but, generally speaking it really depends on the game itself. In a game where grinding is the pre-determined method of betterment then that's what you do, as simple as that. Take a game like most all MMORPG's now days, questing is the primary resource. There may only be rare cases where farming something would allow you to progress/level quicker. Per mob xp rates in these scenarios versus quest farming is just not viable.

    Obviously it's going to depend on how the developers want you to play as to how you will choose to play, at least efficiently. Grinding gameplay = more suited for social and grouping elements, more non-linear. Non-grinding gameplay = solo player, linear, LFG tool etc etc.

     

    My thoughts!

    -War

    That is an interesting take on it War, questing isn't going to be very big in PRF, there will be the odd one here and there with a few really epic questline and some main quests of course but you won't be able to quest your way to max level, you will need to grind, do dungeon runs, raids etc to get you the bulk of the way there and hopefully finding new friends and fun experiences along the way! ;)

     

    Kils, I understand the game will be like that and it's what I've missed. Questing should be meaningful and uncommon. These are all things which are bringing most of us to PROTF, for sure!

    • 170 posts
    February 15, 2016 5:51 AM PST

     Like Vanilla EQ1 not post PoP. You HAD to group or you could solo but it took longer. A grind with some quest but minimal, agro mobs everywhere, longer exp from lvl to lvl. Remember there was a group on eacn wall of Cazic, one per spire outside of Splitpaw, LGuk had Frenzy, Bedroom, Ass/Sup etc. with mobs that hit hard you had to a fight to kill not 3 buttons and a finishing move. You made friends and with the respawn rate of mana and health you sat an chatted. A wandering mob agro and you had to kill it and resit because they were going to respawn and you had no mana. There was risk you had penalties for death so you were actually scared to run through Kiticor at night. To me there's a whole game before end game not just a race through the zones and now I start because there's Raids. It was a reward. Getting my troll shaman a full set of totemic and then sporting it through the tunnel in commonlands to show it off. Oh the memories, the fun, the friends please lets have a grind and lets mix up stuff we need so you have to travel and explore.

    • 103 posts
    February 15, 2016 5:54 AM PST

    I dont hate grinding away a few hours for a day here and there. Its that monotonous non-stop, weeks long grind I hate. Then again I dont hate questing... but that hand-held point A to point B thing is way too boring as well, but at least it ends much faster, lol. I think a nice balance between the two is ideal... the kind that a player who explores every nook and cranny, killing every mob and critter along the way to his quest objective would find plenty of XP from to level up (along with crafting, farming, dungeons, PvP, etc).

    • 105 posts
    February 15, 2016 6:00 AM PST

    I'm not a fan of gated grinding.  In fact I despise it and think very mean things about developers who fall back on gated grinding to artificially control the speed of the game.  

     

    If I have 36 hours to grind faction then let me grind faction.  Don't gate it behind a daily cap on the amount of faction I can get.  If you want faction to be hard to get then make the mobs hard to beat.  Gated grind content is not a challenge, it's an annoyance.

     

     

    • 563 posts
    February 15, 2016 6:21 AM PST

    Marilee said:

    I'm not a fan of gated grinding.  In fact I despise it and think very mean things about developers who fall back on gated grinding to artificially control the speed of the game.  

     

    If I have 36 hours to grind faction then let me grind faction.  Don't gate it behind a daily cap on the amount of faction I can get.  If you want faction to be hard to get then make the mobs hard to beat.  Gated grind content is not a challenge, it's an annoyance.

     

     

    I agree, I hate when a daily cap is put in place, I'd much rather it just be more difficult but I can do as much as I like. I find it makes it feel more like a mini-game/time sink than an actual part of the game world, and if you don't do your allocated amount each and every day you're falling behind.

     

    Rachael

    • 9115 posts
    February 15, 2016 6:38 AM PST

    Marilee said:

    I'm not a fan of gated grinding.  In fact I despise it and think very mean things about developers who fall back on gated grinding to artificially control the speed of the game.  

     

    If I have 36 hours to grind faction then let me grind faction.  Don't gate it behind a daily cap on the amount of faction I can get.  If you want faction to be hard to get then make the mobs hard to beat.  Gated grind content is not a challenge, it's an annoyance.

     

     

    This actually annoys me as well Marilee, someone shouldn't be penalized for having more time and/or dedication to achieving their goal, we will all eventually get there in the end but putting in caps like that really frustrate me too! :)

    • 157 posts
    February 15, 2016 6:42 AM PST

    Grinding … call it what you will … it’s a designed time sink, and it’s a required mechanism to keep players playing. 

    I have a love-hate relationship with the “grind.”  I love the journey, and the “ding” provides some much-needed reinforcement and positive feedback all on its own.  The social congratulations from the community provide more positive reinforcement, and the acquisition of more character skills provides yet even more positive reinforcement.  MMOs are built as Skinner boxes, and most of the successful ones are very good at what they do.  Aside from pure character leveling, there are secondary skills to level, achievements to gain, quests to finish, big boss mobs to kill, etc.  Each time one of these milestones is reached, some reinforcement is given to the player, and we continue to play on.  After all, who doesn’t like positive reinforcement?

    Players bring one currency to the typical MMO: time.  Time=advancement is the typical equation in an MMO.  “Grinds” only become grinds when the equation seems out of balance.  When the return for your invested time seems inadequate. When the “ding” isn’t reached, when the quest remains uncompleted, when the goal remains unattained after a perceived much-too-long time … that’s when the play stops and the grind begins.  I hate the feeling of grinding because it's at that point when the time sink has become transparent.

    • 110 posts
    February 15, 2016 6:44 AM PST
    Speaking of daily limits PLEASE do not put in anything at All that could be called a "daily". Hate having the feeling I need to log in to do a daily or risk falling behind somehow. While 99% of the time I really want to play everyday anyway, if I'm out enjoying rl I shouldn't feel I'm getting left behind for not doing my crafting, faction, quest, Xp daily.

    Damn I hate dailies.....

    Garmr
    • 79 posts
    February 15, 2016 6:44 AM PST

    I'm not a fan of faction grinding so much unless it happens to coincide with the same mobs I'm killing to level up :P. Like others, I enjoyed the social aspects of finding a group and grinding out levels either in a camp or a dungeon run. If the gameplay is enjoyable and the content engaging, then grinding is not a grind--it's the game.

    • 112 posts
    February 15, 2016 7:24 AM PST

    IMO, grinding in some form is a given for almost all MMOs. The differences are in how it is presented to the player.

    In quest based games the grind is divided up into many small bite sized pieces with a carrot reward dangled in front of the player to keep him moving forward.  The problem I find with questing is that it is too linear and guided.  It lends itself to a repetitive nature that can become boring and tedious.  The devs have set out a path for characters to follow that might not match the player's interest.  If I am a leatherworker and want to hunt for pelts, but all the quests involve raiding a bandit camp then I am penalized for wanting to do something different.

    Getting back to old school grinding will give players more freedom to explore zones and engage in content suited for their play style.  Not being able to blindly follow a yellow quest marker will encourage players to interact more and should help strengthen the social aspects of the game.  The real key to me is not to just going old school, but improving on it.  Good use of zone event triggers will keep things from being too static.  The idea is to adventure in an evolving dynamic world not just sit at a camp for 5 hours waiting on a spawn.  

    One other area of interest for grinding is in tradeskills.  In most games crafting is a throw away relying on grinding through recipes most of which are useless except for vendor trash. I would like to see a little more time and thought taken in setting up the crafting system to be beneficial to the player community. 

    • 71 posts
    February 15, 2016 7:35 AM PST

    Kilsin said:

    A dreaded word to some but music to others' ears, what are your thoughts on grinding any type of content in MMORPGs? :)

     

    For me it hinges on the game's combat system. For example, I love grinding in EQ1. The combat is slower paced, you have time to chat and relax and suddenly 5+ hours of grinding flies by. In most games however combat is far too fast paced and constant button mashing. With that kind of combat, grinding can burn you out in a fraction of the time. The constant button mashing wears thin fast, then you also don't even have time to converse with your group and do other social things.

    It doesn't matter how "good" fast-paced combat is, because if you're forced to do it for extended periods time it will get old regardless. With slower paced combat, time becomes rather irrelevant because you're not just constantly fighting / mashing keys.

    • 2130 posts
    February 15, 2016 7:36 AM PST

    Grinding is a really vague term that encompasses several different game mechanics so it's really hard to make a blanket statement about it.

    For instance, in most Korean MMORPGS, the prevailing form of grinding is doing "daily" quests that have artificial restrictions on them. Usually you do these for a currency that is required for player advancement, or faction. This form of grinding is unpalatable to western MMORPG players, so I'm begging you, please for the love of satan do not put this in Pantheon.

    However, EQ style grinding is also unpalatable to the vast majority of modern MMORPG players, but this style of grinding is actually appealing to me and the demographic that this game is marketed to. So I would be fine with and actually quite happy with having this form of grinding in the game.

    I hate tradeskill grinds but eh, I hate tradeskills altogether. I don't really care on this front.

    • 1 posts
    February 15, 2016 8:42 AM PST

    Some of my best MMO memories (outside of raids) were grinding sessions. Sitting in a dungeon, pulling everything you could, camping that rare spawn for the rare drop, so much better that the current trend of run to point A, B, C quests these days..

     

    • 62 posts
    February 15, 2016 9:29 AM PST

    I love grinding. Except when the group steamrolls everything in its path or if soloing, I can just spam 1 button all day like I did recently in Devilian. In the very early days of EQ1, it was pretty crowded wherever I went and groups were often full so I was always hungry for exp. Getting into a good group at a great grind spot was like finding an oasis in the desert.

    Solo grinding was fun too. I remember finding aviaks outside of the Karanas and they were single pulls. It was like hitting the jackpot. I didn't care that it took so much time and effort just to get one down because soloing was really difficult at that time for me and each kill was like a shot of dopamine.