Sevens said:Thors Hammer is Epic
Capt Americas shield is Epic
Iron Mans suit is Epic
Batmans Brain is Epic
My whole point is that not only weapons are epic...think outside the box, dont limit yourself to just your epic weapon
I understand that "not only weapons are epics". The problem is that when numerous different things become classified as epic, it diminishes the individual things. Epic has historically always been reserved for that one, class specific piece that is super amazing compared to any other item for the given slot, and it generally is a weapon because weapons are generally the most flashy/fun/desired items.
If we apply the term "epic" to "things people have that come from quests and are cool", that is simply too watered down of a definition of epic to actually matter.
As far as I'm concerned; epic weapons are end game of end game weapons. "Your epic" is always referred to as your quest for your epic weapon. Epic quests refer to very that.
But since Hieromonk brought up the idea of an epic quest not being necessarily about a weapon and the actaully OP subject matter is actually about Epic weapons specifically.. Hieromonk should really create a new thread for this purpose, as it's classed as OP derailment in my opinion. Just for arguments sake.
Liav said:Sevens said:Thors Hammer is Epic
Capt Americas shield is Epic
Iron Mans suit is Epic
Batmans Brain is Epic
My whole point is that not only weapons are epic...think outside the box, dont limit yourself to just your epic weapon
I understand that "not only weapons are epics". The problem is that when numerous different things become classified as epic, it diminishes the individual things. Epic has historically always been reserved for that one, class specific piece that is super amazing compared to any other item for the given slot, and it generally is a weapon because weapons are generally the most flashy/fun/desired items.
If we apply the term "epic" to "things people have that come from quests and are cool", that is simply too watered down of a definition of epic to actually matter.
You say Historically its always been...and yet you freak out when others talk about the way things have been. Innovation, remember that word? why not change what it means when you say EPIC....its not just a quest but an epic quest, and the rewards could be class specific...A holy symbol for the cleric, A magic Gi for the Monk, An amber encased leaf from the world tree for the druid, An ivory carved totem for the shammy, A quiver of endless arrows for the ranger or a shield of mighty blocking for the warrior. These are all ideas that you could make available only after a time intensive, massive, level spanning quest that takes you the far reaches of Terminus
Liav said:Sevens said:Thors Hammer is Epic
Capt Americas shield is Epic
Iron Mans suit is Epic
Batmans Brain is Epic
My whole point is that not only weapons are epic...think outside the box, dont limit yourself to just your epic weapon
I understand that "not only epics are weapons". The problem is that when numerous different things become classified as epic, it diminishes the individual things. Epic has historically always been reserved for that one, class specific piece that is super amazing compared to any other item for the given slot, and it generally is a weapon because weapons are generally the most flashy/fun/desired items.
If we apply the term "epic" to "things people have that come from quests and are cool", that is simply too watered down of a definition of epic to actually matter.
For me, it's more that I'd actually rather it go even closer to the definition of the word epic.
The simple definition is "Heroic or grand in scale or character", but the origins come from the ancient poems which were long tales narrating the deeds of a heroic figure or the history of a nation.
When this becomes a discussion of how epics must be epic weapons because that's how all MMOs handle it, I feel we're taking this to only mean 'Epic' as an item grade.
What this thread was originally talking about (albeit long ago) is epic quest lines. There is nothing that says a truly epic story must reward you with the end game gear that you'll be using in raiding. To me that expectation actually feels like it enforces the concept of "I put in all this effort, I better get some crazy good swag for it."
Would it be so bad to have an epic quest which takes you all over the world, through some incredible story and rewards you with a variety of good/interesting, but not necessarily godly items as a result?
I certainly wouldn't mind it. Hell, I'd love some epic quest lines which happen earlier on in the gaming journey.
STOP HERE IF YOU DONT WANT TO READ A SAMPLE QUESTLINE - LOTS OF TEXT
And just for clarity's sake I'll throw in an incredibly short and rudimentary (and probably sub-standard as I'm making it up on the spot) example of what I mean:
Here the questline splits - support the noble, or support the rebellion
Support the noble:
These quests would only represent the start of the process. The queen would then have a series of carry-on quests through which you would eventually receive:
Note - this entire questline you'd only be able to start if you found the noble at his random spawn in the wilderness and talked to him there and accepted his request.
Then there would be another branch of quests in support of the rebellion.
Now you might say this is exactly like the standard primary questline in any game. What makes it any different?
I'll probably write a complete and full questline on both sides at some point now that I'm interested - but right now I just don't have the time I'm afraid.
Liav said:Niien said:I would be for epic quests that wasn't just a weapon reward. Maybe a rare item or trinket, new ability etc would all be cool with me. Especially if it was lore driven. Maybe even epic quests that aren't class specific and can only be done a certain number of times before it can't be done any longer. Some people would feel left out, though... it would make lore in of itself.
Please no. Limited things like this just drive people to cheat, exploit, or quit their jobs to play the game 20 hours a day to succeed. Things that give gameplay advantages should be something that everyone is capable of doing when they reach the tier of gameplay. Otherwise, it's no better than just paying money for gameplay advantages. The logic being that these types of things only reward people who literally dedicate their life to the game.
Do understand, when he said "limited time", he meant the quest has unknown properties and/or duration on the server. The server population would not know, until months later the quest no longer worked. And perhaps server wide, only 200 people out of 20k even knew about it, or even had the right faction to talk to the quest determination, (a little girl fishing with her brother at a lake).. before that particular quest dried up.
There is no way of knowing, exploiting or cheating.
I agree with a few people here. An epic quest doesn't need to be and shouldn't be just about weapons. That is taking what has been done in the past and doing it again just because it is traditional. Sometimes there is nothing wrong with tradition but when it stands in the way of innovation it becomes a problem.
There are many types of epic quests that the developers could utilise. Those that just tell a really good story, those that make you explore the world, those that give you powerful weapons and those that give you powerful armour. All of these should be considered epic quests and limiting them to just weapons seem rather limiting. I'd love to run into a quest from just exploring the world and running into a semi-hidden NPC that sent me all over the place to do various tasks for them and in doing so I got to see the world and maybe got some big faction modifiers or perhaps earned quite a lot of plat for completing the quest.
I'd also love to be able to get new weapons and armour that take weeks or months to earn but that have nice stats.
I think the main point I want to get across though is that epic quests shouldn't be limited to the highest level characters. There is no reason an epic quest line couldn't be available for lower level characters if all that is required is travelling all over the world for instance. In most MMOs all the fun and interesting content is only really for the highest level characters meaning that the entire player base is just rushing to max level as fast as possible. If the developers gave them something to do that was fun and exciting at lower levels then the rush wouldn't be so bad.
Liav said:Half of the things you listed would probably go in "weapon" (primary/secondary/ranged/ammo) slots.
I like innovation, but changing things for seemingly no reason doesn't really qualify as innovative.
Lets see..the holy symbol for cleric is Necklace, the amber leaf for druid is earring, quiver for ranger back piece, totem for shammy secodary or even ammo slot.
And its not just for no good reason....Why in the world would a cleric seek out an epic weapon? I mean they arent really known for their bashing. A holy symbol is more in line with lore.
Same with a druid, fighting with a weapon isnt their forte...so an earring or leaf entwined head piece is more in line with lore.
I just dont see any reason at all that every Epic has to be a weapon...A Rogue with an epic dagger, I can see that....but not really a shammy. And just because it might fit in Primary secondary range or ammo doesnt mean its a weapon
IndecentMonk said:Liav said:Sevens said:Thors Hammer is Epic
Capt Americas shield is Epic
Iron Mans suit is Epic
Batmans Brain is Epic
My whole point is that not only weapons are epic...think outside the box, dont limit yourself to just your epic weapon
I understand that "not only epics are weapons". The problem is that when numerous different things become classified as epic, it diminishes the individual things. Epic has historically always been reserved for that one, class specific piece that is super amazing compared to any other item for the given slot, and it generally is a weapon because weapons are generally the most flashy/fun/desired items.
If we apply the term "epic" to "things people have that come from quests and are cool", that is simply too watered down of a definition of epic to actually matter.
For me, it's more that I'd actually rather it go even closer to the definition of the word epic.
The simple definition is "Heroic or grand in scale or character", but the origins come from the ancient poems which were long tales narrating the deeds of a heroic figure or the history of a nation.
When this becomes a discussion of how epics must be epic weapons because that's how all MMOs handle it, I feel we're taking this to only mean 'Epic' as an item grade.
What this thread was originally talking about (albeit long ago) is epic quest lines. There is nothing that says a truly epic story must reward you with the end game gear that you'll be using in raiding. To me that expectation actually feels like it enforces the concept of "I put in all this effort, I better get some crazy good swag for it."
Would it be so bad to have an epic quest which takes you all over the world, through some incredible story and rewards you with a variety of good/interesting, but not necessarily godly items as a result?
I certainly wouldn't mind it. Hell, I'd love some epic quest lines which happen earlier on in the gaming journey.
STOP HERE IF YOU DONT WANT TO READ A SAMPLE QUESTLINE - LOTS OF TEXT
And just for clarity's sake I'll throw in an incredibly short and rudimentary (and probably sub-standard as I'm making it up on the spot) example of what I mean:
- Quest 1: Early on in the game you can stumble across a quest to go deliver a missive to the royal palace for a noble who you run across in the wilderness.
You go to the required location to meet with the messenger for the handoff before you can carry on your leg of the journey. After arriving at the post you find out the messenger never arrived. In the messenger post, after asking around you find one guy who knows the path that he was supposed to take and hands you a map.- Quest 2: Now you can start a quest to investigate the missing messenger
You follow the path backwards and find evidence of a battle. You search out from the scene and find the remains of the messenger nearby. Fully investigating the scene you find enough evidence to identify the party responsible for the messenger's murder. You can choose to either hand this information to the authorities and end the questline there/skip to picking up the message after they recover it or undertake your own hunt and exterminate the murdering thieves.- Quest 3 (optional): Hunt down the thieves and recover the noble's message.
You hunt to the thieves hideout and go in to recover the message. The hideout is empty other than one man, who you have a conversation with and find out the reasons behind their rebellion against the noble. He offers the option to assist them in their agenda.Here the questline splits - support the noble, or support the rebellion
Support the noble:
- Quest 4a: Report to the crown
You decide to work against the rebellion, slaying the thief and recovering the message. You travel to the noble's residence (as he has returned home), informing him of the insurgency and gaining a token from him, allowing you to temporarily use a royal courier travel system which allows you to quickly travel to the palace to provide a full report to the queen. You move out to make the report.- Quest 5a: Investigate the rebellion
The queen would like you to investigate this rebellion more fully. She provides you with a weapon (decent-good quality) as a reward for your efforts so far. She also passes on further information regarding who is driving the rebellion and where they are making their camp. In the conversation she also mentions a third party who was instrumental in getting this information. Your task is then to go to the camp and investigate. If you were clever and picked up on the hint in the conversation, you can go talk to the third party who gives you a disguise which allows you to walk into the rebel camp and perform your investigations without bloodshed. If not, then you've got a long and grueling fight to clear your way to the appropriate damning evidence. You return to the queen with the recovered documents.These quests would only represent the start of the process. The queen would then have a series of carry-on quests through which you would eventually receive:
- A series of titles depending on how you have undertaken your quest
- Queen's Exterminator if you killed your way through the rebellion
- Queen's Shadow if you snuck in and stole the information
- A full set of good armour (class specific) which is kitted out to look like you are from the faction you supported
- Faction-specific bonus - perhaps a very small discount on all goods bought from vendors in the nation? Or access to a special vendor with some cool items which allow you to show off your devotion to the faction?
- Perhaps a unique clicky?
Note - this entire questline you'd only be able to start if you found the noble at his random spawn in the wilderness and talked to him there and accepted his request.
Then there would be another branch of quests in support of the rebellion.
Now you might say this is exactly like the standard primary questline in any game. What makes it any different?
- Full thing should end up being something like 15-20 quests long based on where my brain was going, but haven't written yet.
- Start point is conditional on finding a travelling mob spawn.
- There are potential branches to the questline where you can decide to cut it off if you don't want to progress until it is complete.
- You end up changing your status with a faction and developing a clear association with it over the lifetime of the quests.
I'll probably write a complete and full questline on both sides at some point now that I'm interested - but right now I just don't have the time I'm afraid.
I like this quest idea
What a great thread! There sure are lots of terrific ideas in here. Some new, some old, and much discussion that creates new ideas.
Reading through the various posts in here about epic quest rewards gave me an interesting idea … What if the Epic Quest were an on-going quest (yes, something that every character of every class knows about at level one), and it was only by achieving certain of the Epic Quest goals that you advanced your class? In essence you “level or unlock” your class tiers by achieving your epic quest goals. You could gain experience by killing mobs, adventuring, questing, etc. and even level your character. But the class system would be tiered off, and certain class milestones would only be attainable by completing certain steps in the Epic Quest line.
This way, the Epic Quest is something everyone wants / needs to undertake. It’s not a weapon or bauble that gets outdated, and it’s something that can span expansions down the road. It gives a class-specific goal/purpose, and it gives rewards that are tangible and class-specific. It also allows the devs to steer people in certain directions by requiring certain classes visit certain areas during the leveling process (it could re-inforce world travel, discovery of new areas, etc). It might even play into the Pantheon system of class specialization where along the line each class needs to decide what path of specialization they will choose.
I guess I’m in the camp of thought that an “Epic Quest” is a long and arduous one. One that is filled with danger and adventure, but, ultimately is more about the character and less about the shiny bauble at the end. We remember Hercules and the adventures of Jason and the Argonauts because of the dangers monsters they defeated – not because of the loot they received.
Cromulent said:I agree with a few people here. An epic quest doesn't need to be and shouldn't be just about weapons. That is taking what has been done in the past and doing it again just because it is traditional. Sometimes there is nothing wrong with tradition but when it stands in the way of innovation it becomes a problem.
There are many types of epic quests that the developers could utilise. Those that just tell a really good story, those that make you explore the world, those that give you powerful weapons and those that give you powerful armour. All of these should be considered epic quests and limiting them to just weapons seem rather limiting. I'd love to run into a quest from just exploring the world and running into a semi-hidden NPC that sent me all over the place to do various tasks for them and in doing so I got to see the world and maybe got some big faction modifiers or perhaps earned quite a lot of plat for completing the quest.
I'd also love to be able to get new weapons and armour that take weeks or months to earn but that have nice stats.
I think the main point I want to get across though is that epic quests shouldn't be limited to the highest level characters. There is no reason an epic quest line couldn't be available for lower level characters if all that is required is travelling all over the world for instance. In most MMOs all the fun and interesting content is only really for the highest level characters meaning that the entire player base is just rushing to max level as fast as possible. If the developers gave them something to do that was fun and exciting at lower levels then the rush wouldn't be so bad.
Right there with ya!
xtnpd said:What a great thread! There sure are lots of terrific ideas in here. Some new, some old, and much discussion that creates new ideas.
Reading through the various posts in here about epic quest rewards gave me an interesting idea … What if the Epic Quest were an on-going quest (yes, something that every character of every class knows about at level one), and it was only by achieving certain of the Epic Quest goals that you advanced your class? In essence you “level or unlock” your class tiers by achieving your epic quest goals. You could gain experience by killing mobs, adventuring, questing, etc. and even level your character. But the class system would be tiered off, and certain class milestones would only be attainable by completing certain steps in the Epic Quest line.
This way, the Epic Quest is something everyone wants / needs to undertake. It’s not a weapon or bauble that gets outdated, and it’s something that can span expansions down the road. It gives a class-specific goal/purpose, and it gives rewards that are tangible and class-specific. It also allows the devs to steer people in certain directions by requiring certain classes visit certain areas during the leveling process (it could re-inforce world travel, discovery of new areas, etc). It might even play into the Pantheon system of class specialization where along the line each class needs to decide what path of specialization they will choose.
I guess I’m in the camp of thought that an “Epic Quest” is a long and arduous one. One that is filled with danger and adventure, but, ultimately is more about the character and less about the shiny bauble at the end. We remember Hercules and the adventures of Jason and the Argonauts because of the dangers monsters they defeated – not because of the loot they received.
At one point there was a system being talked about that was pretty much what you describe...You had certain things you had to complete (like a list of 30 items and you had to do like 5 before you could level) dont remember all the details and not sure if its even still being planned...tried to find reference to it but all the old stuff is archived
Oh well. Here's hoping they stick with epic weapons so I can kill things with really cool looking class-specific swords that will cause newbs to envy me. Then there's also the unending stream of hot chicks that comes along with the implementation of epic weapons.
In all seriousness, I guess I don't really care. I just really like amazing looking class specific weaponry because weapons are generally the most obvious visible piece of equipment that your character gets. I have a strong suspicion that we're not going to have visible earrings and rings because some of that just isn't practical, so that reduces us down to weapons, armor, and perhaps cloaks for visible equipment.
I don't want to do the longest, hardest quest in the game for a class specific reward that has no visible appearance. I want to have it on display.
@Hieromonk
I will not compromise on this. Under absolutely no circumstances is having quests that offer anything except aesthetic rewards acceptable with limited availability. I won't argue with you on this, I'll just keep saying "hell no".
Sevens said:At one point there was a system being talked about that was pretty much what you describe...You had certain things you had to complete (like a list of 30 items and you had to do like 5 before you could level) dont remember all the details and not sure if its even still being planned...tried to find reference to it but all the old stuff is archived
Sevens, I also remeber talk of this, however I was one of the ones that didn't want restrictions via quests for leveling. I believe I could be open minded enough to at least give it a chance to see how it feels, though it didn't seem like something I would be interested in personally. I have been wrong many times before and this time may be no different than the last. :)
Niien said:Sevens said:At one point there was a system being talked about that was pretty much what you describe...You had certain things you had to complete (like a list of 30 items and you had to do like 5 before you could level) dont remember all the details and not sure if its even still being planned...tried to find reference to it but all the old stuff is archived
Sevens, I also remeber talk of this, however I was one of the ones that didn't want restrictions via quests for leveling. I believe I could be open minded enough to at least give it a chance to see how it feels, though it didn't seem like something I would be interested in personally. I have been wrong many times before and this time may be no different than the last. :)
I agree. It sounds like something that a themepark type of game might do, gating progression with some arbitrary list of activities. I suppose that depends on implementation, but at a cursory glance, it doesn't really sound compelling.
Liav said:Niien said:Sevens said:At one point there was a system being talked about that was pretty much what you describe...You had certain things you had to complete (like a list of 30 items and you had to do like 5 before you could level) dont remember all the details and not sure if its even still being planned...tried to find reference to it but all the old stuff is archived
Sevens, I also remeber talk of this, however I was one of the ones that didn't want restrictions via quests for leveling. I believe I could be open minded enough to at least give it a chance to see how it feels, though it didn't seem like something I would be interested in personally. I have been wrong many times before and this time may be no different than the last. :)
I agree. It sounds like something that a themepark type of game might do, gating progression with some arbitrary list of activities. I suppose that depends on implementation, but at a cursory glance, it doesn't really sound compelling.
Agreed.
Liav said:Niien said:Sevens said:At one point there was a system being talked about that was pretty much what you describe...You had certain things you had to complete (like a list of 30 items and you had to do like 5 before you could level) dont remember all the details and not sure if its even still being planned...tried to find reference to it but all the old stuff is archived
Sevens, I also remeber talk of this, however I was one of the ones that didn't want restrictions via quests for leveling. I believe I could be open minded enough to at least give it a chance to see how it feels, though it didn't seem like something I would be interested in personally. I have been wrong many times before and this time may be no different than the last. :)
I agree. It sounds like something that a themepark type of game might do, gating progression with some arbitrary list of activities. I suppose that depends on implementation, but at a cursory glance, it doesn't really sound compelling.
What about raid attunements? I've enjoyed those when they feel like a great quest and not just a checklist of actions
Liav said:Bluefyre said:What about raid attunements? I've enjoyed those when they feel like a great quest and not just a checklist of actions
You mean like keying and flagging for zones? Those are fine, I just don't like gating leveling with quests.
Roger that. Yeah keying/flagging. As long as they are not like Wildstar where it was just a shopping list of rep grinds and doing dungeons in a set amount of time with no storyline reasoning.
Bluefyre said:Roger that. Yeah keying/flagging. As long as they are not like Wildstar where it was just a shopping list of rep grinds and doing dungeons in a set amount of time with no storyline reasoning.
Rep grinding in general is cancer imo.
Even so, yeah. I loved Pantheon of the Ancients in VG. Even though the grind was miserably long, I enjoyed the fact that it was gated in so many ways.
Niien said:Liav said:Niien said:Sevens said:At one point there was a system being talked about that was pretty much what you describe...You had certain things you had to complete (like a list of 30 items and you had to do like 5 before you could level) dont remember all the details and not sure if its even still being planned...tried to find reference to it but all the old stuff is archived
Sevens, I also remeber talk of this, however I was one of the ones that didn't want restrictions via quests for leveling. I believe I could be open minded enough to at least give it a chance to see how it feels, though it didn't seem like something I would be interested in personally. I have been wrong many times before and this time may be no different than the last. :)
I agree. It sounds like something that a themepark type of game might do, gating progression with some arbitrary list of activities. I suppose that depends on implementation, but at a cursory glance, it doesn't really sound compelling.
Agreed.
I hope you guys give it a chance. FFXI had a similar system and it was not only fun but broke up the sameness of just leveling. It wasnt like your typical and much hated quest hubs. It was more like rites of passage to let you earn te right to level. The intent being that you should possess a certain level of class knowlegde before you could continue the journey. Maybe something along the lines of being tested as a mage in DragonLance at the Tower of High Sorcery.
I actually thought this was cancelled. And in the "Approach to Grind" Thread on the MMORPG Pantheon Forums I asked specifically about it based on a comment Brad made. An he confirmed that it wasnt cancelled but was just on hold til it can be seen how it and other systems would or would not work, and then heavily tested.
Here is a link to the thread (lot of reading and reposting from this forum): http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/446243/visionary-realms-approach-to-the-grind/p1
You can see where I asked the question and Brad asnwered starting at about 15 posts down the first page.
Also while I will agree that it is somewhat a Themeparkish thing. I dont consider EQ a Sandbox though either, and most people wouldnt either. Its a much older Themepark MMO back when they had much more of a mix of sandboc and themepark things. Its what some people would call a Themebox or a Sandpark. So I definitely see room for it. But guys lets try it out in testing before not giving it a chance.
Liav said:@Hieromonk
I will not compromise on this. Under absolutely no circumstances is having quests that offer anything except aesthetic rewards acceptable with limited availability. I won't argue with you on this, I'll just keep saying "hell no".
20k players on the server & only 200 players end up discovering/completing the limited quest over a years time... and all of them may have an uber rare quest object. Why get upset..?
The funny thing is.. there might be hundreds of those types of limited quests out there to find and you'd never know it, or even know when to get mad about them ending. Because you will be too busy playing your character to even be bothered with what quest someone else was working on... as You are doing your own quests, & don't have enough time to worry about other's quests.