Was wondering what Pantheon stance right now is on Third party UI interface and things like Advanced combat tracker. I know a lot of hard core raid guilds love them for thigns like Aggro meters and such I myself have never used them but was curious if that is something that will be planned on being allowed or not allowed and maybe safeguards put in place to discourge use?
Bluefyre said:I'm all for UI enhancements, but I hope DPS and Aggro meters are not allowed. Aggro meters feel like cheating and DPS meters just cause people to care more about being #1 in damage instead of dealing with the encounter.
IMHO anyway.
I 100 percent agree Aggro meters feel like cheating. As for DPS meters I kind of feal like those are an aggro meter as well in way. As a Tank class I never care about DPS meters and I never lose aggro so both are useless for me. If the UI enhancements are purely cosmetic like allow you to keep your bars and stuff neat then I dont really mind.
Well this is a subject that gets brought up about every two months
and is usually locked because people on both sides of the issue are very passionate about their views
might want to use the search feature and check a few of the older post as I know Kilsin will probally have something to say about this tread...and not in a good way :)
Kalgore said:I did and I didnt see anything POP up with the keywords I used.
Yeah, the search feature isnt the best and alot of the older post were archived so dont know if they would show up
just dont feel to bad if this thread gets closed or explodes in a flame war
Not that that kind of thing happens here alot but Add ons, Fast travel and PvP threads usually come close
as for my opinion...cosmetic changes to the UI only, No gages, gadgets or 3rd party software should be needed to play the game. If VRI doesnt see it as needed to include it in the game then it doesnt belong.
Aradune said:The plan is a customizable UI and then being very careful about the data we send to the client so that third party apps that intercept that data won't be very useful.
God I love the communcation and the feedback we get. I can't wait to see this game launch.
Skins would be nice, I hope it's an xml style based UI like EQ. I made some themes when I was younger, but some people just are born to skin!
I am 100% against third party software, I will admit I have used it, but only because you fall behind if you don't.
I would love the game to be played like it was intended
I would also hope that VR would loom at putting something like this into the core game if they saw there was a fundimental use, I see a DPS meter a break or immersion but still something that is cool to see, maybe you could hit record and not see it in game. Like see a message "Deadly is focusing his mind on the output of damage" and then it could show up later either in your games folder (similar to a screenshot) or on the Web under your main account.
Then peeps could almost use it as a boasting tool or something to actually learn off without it interfering or being able to be used as an advantage right at that point
Sevens said:Well this is a subject that gets brought up about every two months
and is usually locked because people on both sides of the issue are very passionate about their views
might want to use the search feature and check a few of the older post as I know Kilsin will probally have something to say about this tread...and not in a good way :)
Duffy actually started a thread on this subject a few months ago, the rest have been archived sadly:
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2212/will-ui-mods-be-possible/
Searching "everything" with the keywords "Add Ons" brought it up.
This thread can continue, we just need to keep opinions in check and respect other people's opinions, not everyone likes the same things but there is no point having an internet fight over it as it will not solve anything other than making the people involved look silly and end up with them being moderated, the more people that join in on the argument, the more chance of the thread being locked. :)
Aradune said:The plan is a customizable UI and then being very careful about the data we send to the client so that third party apps that intercept that data won't be very useful.
some information is nice to have in case of DPS etc. While I hate the "I do more dps then you and the meter says so" mentality of WoW, Rift, WS etc. I do like being able to test my own rotations, seeing what is the best burst DPS, 60-second burn, sustained burn etc.
I hope this game will put more credence in being in/at the right spot at the right time and doing the right thing at the right time rather than the straight DPS fest that most end game dungeons/raids have turned into. Fights in EQ, especially in the PoP-PoR phase (maybe further but never really made it past PoR myself) had really good mechanics that made the force do more than just DPS burn. VG did a good job of this also on most of its fights.
Dreconic said:Aradune said:The plan is a customizable UI and then being very careful about the data we send to the client so that third party apps that intercept that data won't be very useful.
some information is nice to have in case of DPS etc. While I hate the "I do more dps then you and the meter says so" mentality of WoW, Rift, WS etc. I do like being able to test my own rotations, seeing what is the best burst DPS, 60-second burn, sustained burn etc.
I hope this game will put more credence in being in/at the right spot at the right time and doing the right thing at the right time rather than the straight DPS fest that most end game dungeons/raids have turned into. Fights in EQ, especially in the PoP-PoR phase (maybe further but never really made it past PoR myself) had really good mechanics that made the force do more than just DPS burn. VG did a good job of this also on most of its fights.
We have already said that this will be available in chat logs mate, combat information that can be toggled on/off each chat window like you could do in EQ and VG. We do not want o see external DPS and Aggro meters. :)
I personally hated joining high-end raiding guilds only to be told "Welcome priest_05! Go get these mods and install them before tonight's raid. If you don't we'll know. Have a nice day!"
Why send me on an errand? I want to play the game the way it was intended. I don't care about skins or cosmetic stuff - if you want a fully animated gif of Duke Nuke'm strippers to appear everytime you hit Q, that's your perspective. Just don't expect me to want to use it.
"You wanna dance?"
I was in a guild that 'strongly suggested' the use of GTT (Game Text Triggers) for raiding. EQ devs didn't consider them a form of cheating, but I strongly feel that all the tools you should need to tackle content should be incorporated into the game itself. I refused to use them, and so did a few other guild members. Honestly, the people who took the time to set up proper audio triggers (a function of the default EQ UI) seemed to be a lot less prone to missing emotes on raids in my experience.
Kilsin said:We have already said that this will be available in chat logs mate, combat information that can be toggled on/off each chat window like you could do in EQ and VG. We do not want o see external DPS and Aggro meters. :)
So we're going to be forced to use a calculator and timestamps? Or a calculator and a stopwatch?
Even EQ allowed realtime combat log parsing. Why is the consensus focused around depriving us of information that even a 17 year old game like EQ provided?
Liav said:Kilsin said:We have already said that this will be available in chat logs mate, combat information that can be toggled on/off each chat window like you could do in EQ and VG. We do not want o see external DPS and Aggro meters. :)
So we're going to be forced to use a calculator and timestamps? Or a calculator and a stopwatch?
Even EQ allowed realtime combat log parsing. Why is the consensus focused around depriving us of information that even a 17 year old game like EQ provided?
"We have already said that this will be available in chat logs mate, combat information that can be toggled on/off each chat window like you could do in EQ and VG."
What part of the quoted text is not clear to you Liav?
You can log/parse the combat chat information like you could do in EQ and VG, we will allow UI modifications to a degree (most likely appearance/skins only), but we will do what we can to stop Aggro and DPS meters being used by limiting the information that they require.
A parser is a lot different to an API DPS meter/Aggro meter, you can still log the combat information and pick it apart to better your class and your guilds performance but we won't allow little live meters that do it all for you in game as we believe it takes away from the experience and want to leave something for the players to work out themselves.
Kilsin said:"We have already said that this will be available in chat logs mate, combat information that can be toggled on/off each chat window like you could do in EQ and VG."
What part of the quoted text is not clear to you Liav?
You can log/parse the combat chat information like you could do in EQ and VG, we will allow UI modifications to a degree (most likely appearance/skins only), but we will do what we can to stop Aggro and DPS meters being used by limiting the information that they require.
A parser is a lot different to an API DPS meter/Aggro meter, you can still log the combat information and pick it apart to better your class and your guilds performance but we won't allow little live meters that do it all for you in game as we believe it takes away from the experience and want to leave something for the players to work out themselves.
We're definitely having a miscommunication. We're either not using the same terminology or this is just very ambiguous.
Kilsin said:We have already said that this will be available in chat logs mate, combat information that can be toggled on/off each chat window like you could do in EQ and VG. We do not want o see external DPS and Aggro meters. :)
The bolded part is in direct contradiction with the following:
Kilsin said:A parser is a lot different to an API DPS meter/Aggro meter, you can still log the combat information and pick it apart to better your class and your guilds performance but we won't allow little live meters that do it all for you
API is not really relevant. If the game writes combat data to a text file, especially if the information is written in realtime, it is trivially easy to make a "DPS meter". If we're specifically talking about in-game UI pieces then that is one thing, but I don't think that's strictly what anyone means when they say "DPS meter". It is quite simple to make an overlay that is functionally identical to an in-game UI piece.
TL;DR: A "parser" is not really very much different from an API DPS meter. The only functional difference is the interface with which the information is provided to you.
Liav said:Kilsin said:"We have already said that this will be available in chat logs mate, combat information that can be toggled on/off each chat window like you could do in EQ and VG."
What part of the quoted text is not clear to you Liav?
You can log/parse the combat chat information like you could do in EQ and VG, we will allow UI modifications to a degree (most likely appearance/skins only), but we will do what we can to stop Aggro and DPS meters being used by limiting the information that they require.
A parser is a lot different to an API DPS meter/Aggro meter, you can still log the combat information and pick it apart to better your class and your guilds performance but we won't allow little live meters that do it all for you in game as we believe it takes away from the experience and want to leave something for the players to work out themselves.We're definitely having a miscommunication. We're either not using the same terminology or this is just very ambiguous.
Kilsin said:We have already said that this will be available in chat logs mate, combat information that can be toggled on/off each chat window like you could do in EQ and VG. We do not want o see external DPS and Aggro meters. :)
The bolded part is in direct contradiction with the following:
Kilsin said:A parser is a lot different to an API DPS meter/Aggro meter, you can still log the combat information and pick it apart to better your class and your guilds performance but we won't allow little live meters that do it all for you
API is not really relevant. If the game writes combat data to a text file, especially if the information is written in realtime, it is trivially easy to make a "DPS meter". If we're specifically talking about in-game UI pieces then that is one thing, but I don't think that's strictly what anyone means when they say "DPS meter". It is quite simple to make an overlay that is functionally identical to an in-game UI piece.
TL;DR: A "parser" is not really very much different from an API DPS meter. The only functional difference is the interface with which the information is provided to you.
The major difference being the average person wont take the time to implement (or install) something like this whereas a wow-style UI mod is never more than a click away. The ease of installing the mods ends up making them defacto.
I personally find their stance on UI mods refreshing.
Liav said:Kilsin said:"We have already said that this will be available in chat logs mate, combat information that can be toggled on/off each chat window like you could do in EQ and VG."
What part of the quoted text is not clear to you Liav?
You can log/parse the combat chat information like you could do in EQ and VG, we will allow UI modifications to a degree (most likely appearance/skins only), but we will do what we can to stop Aggro and DPS meters being used by limiting the information that they require.
A parser is a lot different to an API DPS meter/Aggro meter, you can still log the combat information and pick it apart to better your class and your guilds performance but we won't allow little live meters that do it all for you in game as we believe it takes away from the experience and want to leave something for the players to work out themselves.We're definitely having a miscommunication. We're either not using the same terminology or this is just very ambiguous.
Kilsin said:We have already said that this will be available in chat logs mate, combat information that can be toggled on/off each chat window like you could do in EQ and VG. We do not want o see external DPS and Aggro meters. :)
The bolded part is in direct contradiction with the following:
Kilsin said:A parser is a lot different to an API DPS meter/Aggro meter, you can still log the combat information and pick it apart to better your class and your guilds performance but we won't allow little live meters that do it all for you
API is not really relevant. If the game writes combat data to a text file, especially if the information is written in realtime, it is trivially easy to make a "DPS meter". If we're specifically talking about in-game UI pieces then that is one thing, but I don't think that's strictly what anyone means when they say "DPS meter". It is quite simple to make an overlay that is functionally identical to an in-game UI piece.
TL;DR: A "parser" is not really very much different from an API DPS meter. The only functional difference is the interface with which the information is provided to you.
Just for clarification, I was genuinely asking what was not clear so I could reword it as it seems I didn't do a very good job explaining it the first time and I wanted to make sure I cleared things up for you and anyone else that was confused by my post.
To keep it simple, the difference is automatic vs manual, we don't want dps meters and aggro meters being installed and linking to the UI for instant "in your face" information, but we will allow combat log parsing like you could do in EQ and VG where combat text is logged in chat and can be saved in a text file for parsing.
There is a big difference and the automatic version can have a huge impact on the community and the overall mentality of gameplay, Pantheon is not a game that will be governed by gear scores and dps/aggro meters but we know stats and combat information are important to a portion of the community, myself included, and we will allow combat parsing to some degree but we haven't decided on how much information we will make available yet as Brad stated above.