Aggelos said:Depends what you mean by real world elements. I do prefer more realistic to hyper insane fantasy (like a greatsword that would realistically weight two tons) in most cases.
Yeah I second this, why I could never play WoW. And EQNext was going down that cartoony look as well.
This comic sums it up lol.
http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n62/Beach_Justice/20060208.jpg
I'd like it to be as realistic as possible in a high fantasy setting. Given that magic and divine/unholy power are not uncommon, designers will be able to describe the world in such a way that it makes more sense than in a low fantasy setting.
For example, in regards to encumberance, in a low fantasy setting it would be quite silly to see a player in full plate armor running and jumping as fast and as high as one in leather armor. In a high fantasy setting, if the full plate armor was fashioned out of some elven metal by some grumpy old dwarven blacksmiths and then blessed by some holier than thou priestess before being enchanted by some secret magical process of 11 incantations and runes to be as light as a feather and as strong as steel, most players will often suspend their disbelief without them even realizing it.
I'm not advocating the proliferation of such magical items but merely to illustrate a point. Going from a level 1 character with nothing but a rusty knife and not being able to carry much to a level 50 character with a bow that could fire infinite arrows is a more interesting journey than one where you're given an ammo bag that could hold practically unlimited ammo right from the start. I hope this makes sense. It's early in the morning.
@OP,
It entirely depends what you mean like Aggelos said. But if it was my choice on how realistic it would be? I'd like see more of the enviroment having an effect too, even when traveling in and out of dungeons... for instance.. if its cold outside, people are sheltered in that old frosty inn.. or clear out a cabin full of goblins to ride out the incoming storm or perhaps to hide from a nastier roaming creature at camp etc.. Druids/Rangers could come more into play then too because they could "sense" the weather/heading.. you know just stuff that brings players together but also makes them think about the journey ahead. I'd like to see more thought based on enviroment/situation survival...
Also MAPS! No downloadable maps! I'd prefer auto-fill in ones or bought ones/both? Makes it much more realistic. With maybe a way to add notes to it.
Another thing that bugs me in most mmo's is "stacks of items", like Zaktaros stated. Everything you carry around with you seems to be everything but the kitchen sink... Sure you have to have space to store loot but when you have stacks and stacks of stuff in your backpack... it gets a lil unrealistic. So I'd like to see something abit more.. realistic there and more about off-loading and preparation.
Aich said:Aggelos said:Depends what you mean by real world elements. I do prefer more realistic to hyper insane fantasy (like a greatsword that would realistically weight two tons) in most cases.
Yeah I second this, why I could never play WoW. And EQNext was going down that cartoony look as well.
This comic sums it up lol.
http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n62/Beach_Justice/20060208.jpg
Haha! I like it :)
zaktaros said:I'd like it to be as realistic as possible in a high fantasy setting. Given that magic and divine/unholy power are not uncommon, designers will be able to describe the world in such a way that it makes more sense than in a low fantasy setting. For example, in regards to encumberance, in a low fantasy setting it would be quite silly to see a player in full plate armor running and jumping as fast and as high as one in leather armor. In a high fantasy setting, if the full plate armor was fashioned out of some elven metal by some grumpy old dwarven blacksmiths and then blessed by some holier than thou priestess before being enchanted by some secret magical process of 11 incantations and runes to be as light as a feather and as strong as steel, most players will often suspend their disbelief without them even realizing it. I'm not advocating the proliferation of such magical items but merely to illustrate a point. Going from a level 1 character with nothing but a rusty knife and not being able to carry much to a level 50 character with a bow that could fire infinite arrows is a more interesting journey than one where you're given an ammo bag that could hold practically unlimited ammo right from the start. I hope this makes sense. It's early in the morning.
Yeah, absolutely, I think the balance is important and by having a nice mix of both it helps immersion a lot more than if they were to lean too heavily on realism, which for example, would break immersion or feel too much like real life work grinding exp/drops.
Nimryl said:@OP,
It entirely depends what you mean like Aggelos said. But if it was my choice on how realistic it would be? I'd like see more of the enviroment having an effect too, even when traveling in and out of dungeons... for instance.. if its cold outside, people are sheltered in that old frosty inn.. or clear out a cabin full of goblins to ride out the incoming storm or perhaps to hide from a nastier roaming creature at camp etc.. Druids/Rangers could come more into play then too because they could "sense" the weather/heading.. you know just stuff that brings players together but also makes them think about the journey ahead. I'd like to see more thought based on enviroment/situation survival...
Also MAPS! No downloadable maps! I'd prefer auto-fill in ones or bought ones/both? Makes it much more realistic. With maybe a way to add notes to it.Another thing that bugs me in most mmo's is "stacks of items", like Zaktaros stated. Everything you carry around with you seems to be everything but the kitchen sink... Sure you have to have space to store loot but when you have stacks and stacks of stuff in your backpack... it gets a lil unrealistic. So I'd like to see something abit more.. realistic there and more about off-loading and preparation.
Yeah, this is the type of immersion and realism I like too! Maps are a touchy subject as there are good arguments for both sides but personally, I would like a cartography skill to make my own in-game maps via exploring and marking it by hand :)
Stacks can make sense in some situations like for instance, stacking 3 bowls inside each other would be safer for travel without the chance of breaking them but stacking 50 is a little silly, again, it is all about balance and getting a good mix of both in my opinion.
Kilsin said:Nimryl said:@OP,
It entirely depends what you mean like Aggelos said. But if it was my choice on how realistic it would be? I'd like see more of the enviroment having an effect too, even when traveling in and out of dungeons... for instance.. if its cold outside, people are sheltered in that old frosty inn.. or clear out a cabin full of goblins to ride out the incoming storm or perhaps to hide from a nastier roaming creature at camp etc.. Druids/Rangers could come more into play then too because they could "sense" the weather/heading.. you know just stuff that brings players together but also makes them think about the journey ahead. I'd like to see more thought based on enviroment/situation survival...
Also MAPS! No downloadable maps! I'd prefer auto-fill in ones or bought ones/both? Makes it much more realistic. With maybe a way to add notes to it.Another thing that bugs me in most mmo's is "stacks of items", like Zaktaros stated. Everything you carry around with you seems to be everything but the kitchen sink... Sure you have to have space to store loot but when you have stacks and stacks of stuff in your backpack... it gets a lil unrealistic. So I'd like to see something abit more.. realistic there and more about off-loading and preparation.
Yeah, this is the type of immersion and realism I like too! Maps are a touchy subject as there are good arguments for both sides but personally, I would like a cartography skill to make my own in-game maps via exploring and marking it by hand :)
Stacks can make sense in some situations like for instance, stacking 3 bowls inside each other would be safer for travel without the chance of breaking them but stacking 50 is a little silly, again, it is all about balance and getting a good mix of both in my opinion.
I like the auto fill in maps as you explore. I liked how GW2 did it, explored a whole map and found Points of Intrests. I assume there will be discoveredable areas as that is a perk is to name one of those points :)
Kilsin said:How real to life do you like your MMORPGs to be, is there a limit between how much game worlds should include real world elements and if so, what are they in your opinion? :)
For me, it's the stage that needs to be as realistic as possible. By that I mean the world in which we adventure needs to feel real. If you have a city, it needs to feel alive, teaming with hundreds upon hundreds of NPCs going about their business to and fro, not just some static NPCs standing in their shops. That goblin/gnoll/whatever fortress should have all the things you'd expect to find in such a place: actual barracks, blacksmiths w/ forges, armories, stables, larders, kitchens, eating halls, grand hall, guardposts, and it too should be alive with activity, not just static NPCs staring blankly forward. If there is a smooth road between two player cities, I'd expect to see trade caravans, pilgrims, travelers and even guards all walking the roads. Basically I expect the world to be vastly more populated with NPCs than players.
Then I need the sense of scale to be correct. Everything should be appropriate to the size of its builder. As an Ogre, everything about our architechture, our furnishings, everything should be scaled to our size just as the dwarven fortress dug into the mountain should all be dwarf sized. And as an Ogre I shouldn't be able to move about in the dwarven city at all, not without magical aid. Just as I shouldn't be able to fit through a dwarven door, that same dwarf shouldn't be able to even open an Ogre door as he couldn't reach the handle. If the two of us ventured into a giant's outpost, we should both feel miniscule in size. It is critical it is done correctly.
Kilsin said:Yeah, this is the type of immersion and realism I like too! Maps are a touchy subject as there are good arguments for both sides but personally, I would like a cartography skill to make my own in-game maps via exploring and marking it by hand :)
Stacks can make sense in some situations like for instance, stacking 3 bowls inside each other would be safer for travel without the chance of breaking them but stacking 50 is a little silly, again, it is all about balance and getting a good mix of both in my opinion.
Well if Visionary goes for some type of cartography mapping + tools then that's even better. You could sell those maps (in-game) to players. That would be awesome.
And yes stacking some items does make sense, but like stacking 20 misty thicket picnics? :)
- Also seeing our backpacks/inventory would be cool too. It always "magically stems" from nowhere.
Vandraad said:Kilsin said:How real to life do you like your MMORPGs to be, is there a limit between how much game worlds should include real world elements and if so, what are they in your opinion? :)
For me, it's the stage that needs to be as realistic as possible. By that I mean the world in which we adventure needs to feel real. If you have a city, it needs to feel alive, teaming with hundreds upon hundreds of NPCs going about their business to and fro, not just some static NPCs standing in their shops. That goblin/gnoll/whatever fortress should have all the things you'd expect to find in such a place: actual barracks, blacksmiths w/ forges, armories, stables, larders, kitchens, eating halls, grand hall, guardposts, and it too should be alive with activity, not just static NPCs staring blankly forward. If there is a smooth road between two player cities, I'd expect to see trade caravans, pilgrims, travelers and even guards all walking the roads. Basically I expect the world to be vastly more populated with NPCs than players.
Then I need the sense of scale to be correct. Everything should be appropriate to the size of its builder. As an Ogre, everything about our architechture, our furnishings, everything should be scaled to our size just as the dwarven fortress dug into the mountain should all be dwarf sized. And as an Ogre I shouldn't be able to move about in the dwarven city at all, not without magical aid. Just as I shouldn't be able to fit through a dwarven door, that same dwarf shouldn't be able to even open an Ogre door as he couldn't reach the handle. If the two of us ventured into a giant's outpost, we should both feel miniscule in size. It is critical it is done correctly.
Man that would be a sweet game. kinda liked a beefed up Skyrim.
For me, there needs to be enough "real" in the game to draw you into the world and make it feel like a world. This includes mundane things that games have eliminted over the years. For example, (and maybe not a good example) - coin weight. It's a mundane thing that you have to contend with - that is based on real world. I remember back in EQ needing to make some tough choices because of how stuff like that impacted me. Did I drop a crap load of silver because it was that or stop what I'm doing to go back to town or whetever.
Now - do I think that needs to be overdone? Absolutely not. It needs to be done "enough."
A game that doesn't make you content with real world concerns mostly just feels like a game - a game that makes you deal with some... starts to become a world.
Kilsin said:How real to life do you like your MMORPGs to be, is there a limit between how much game worlds should include real world elements and if so, what are they in your opinion? :)
??
In what regard..? Graphically, socially..? Crafting..?
Well.. "The World" is about microcosms of sets and clusters and groups.
Also, don't under estimate the power of brad's ideas.. factions and living empires are part of what makes worlds living and breathing. It is not real world elements, but it's own world and elements.. unlike ours. But with laws and game mechanics supporting it. (That is the reason there are VG & EQ fans & emulators, right?)
Coincidentally, when brad mentioned how he worked some new character hook into the controller.. I was all in. Since then, I have extrapolated that idea out, in many fashons as I have been playing EQ (on phinny - come join us) and what you can do with such a nifty mechanics and some ideas are mind blowing..
Plus, brad is evil and if he let that slip, I know there is some oldschool game mechanics in play elsewhere.
edit: As for graphical realism..?
I think having the ability to have 80 different tunics in a pub, merchant street, and/or guild meeting... is much better of a game, than having only 10 basic "armor sets", that use up all the VRAM and are all uber high rez and realistic. If you know the Unity engine and other games, you already know how easy this game engine can render certain things. Now that even $400 laptops have 16 gig sof ram and are running on a 64bit OS... makes things so much easier on Developers, such as these in the MMO world.
In 2017, most GPU sold will have 4, 6 or 8gig of VRAM. So even under Win10 and asking for 2gig is far superior to what could be done just 5 years ago. So, even at 2gig min spec... I hope that there are 20 different sets of lether armor, alone. (Vangard'ish, but tons more armor types and make.)
The part I am most anticipating is beutiful animations and character queus that bring your and other NPCs into a world with YOU. A rhino going to change, or not... get to close, he shows it..? Less partical effects for casters and more animations..?
Liav said:To be fair, we literally killed gods in EQ. There's nothing about fantasy that makes holding a sword twice as large as your character unrealistic.
I guess that all depends on your perception of gods and whether that perception lines up with the lore. There was nothing to say that a god was impervious to harm, especially to that of 50 adventurer's trained in the arts of combat and magic, wielding magical weapons and armor. That lore is also based on precedent. Lore and legend throughout history suggest gods are susceptible to injury and death.
Holding swords twice your size, not so much.
Lots a really Great ideas in here. SO glad to see others who, in general, like the same thing.
I wish I had something original to say here, but it seems everyone beat me to everything.
The world just needs to feel alive. East commons (EQ) had a life to it. the first time I ever went to EC, I was level 5 and was promtly Pecked and clawed to death by a Griffon.
I learned quickly that danger was everywhere. Sergeant Slate loved to attack the undesirables. Undead adored the southern wall not far from a low level dungeon (befallen).
Druids atop hills chased away a many Dark Elves, trolls, and ogres. And they did not care if you were 30 levels higher than them, you were an insult to their race and would fight to the death.
Orcs, cutthroats, animals, insects, magical things (wisps), NPCs of several races, dwarves, humans, gnomes, elves, etc...
Next to EC was a living city with NPCs everywhere. Todays tech should allow those NPC to do or say Much more than was possible in 1998.
I agree with so much others said. We killed Gods, why is a rather large blade more unrealistic. Being emcumbered - was real in EQ.
Factions. Elements. Maps, blacked out until you Go there ( like EQ2 ).
I don't want over sized Pink WoW Armor, but I also don't want pure Skyrim armor that's boring. I liked the way EQ did a lot of things (even with poor graphics) the armor still had a cool look to it.
Robes, although 'cut' the same, had unique patterns to let you know, this guy has an Green Silk Drape, or Shining Metalic Robe. etc.
I liked what one person said about scale. Ogre furniture should be much larger than Dorf furniture etc.
Man I can't wait to play the game with eveyone from these boards. Will be good times.
Dullahan said:I guess that all depends on your perception of gods and whether that perception lines up with the lore. There was nothing to say that a god was impervious to harm, especially to that of 50 adventurer's trained in the arts of combat and magic, wielding magical weapons and armor. That lore is also based on precedent. Lore and legend throughout history suggest gods are susceptible to injury and death.
Holding swords twice your size, not so much.
Their imperviousness to harm isn't the point. The weapons and other equipment we use in fantasy (particularly high fantasy) games are magically augmented just by the sheer fact that they have stat increases on them. Now, I'm not going to get too deep into things here but consider this. Via stat increases alone, a single expansion of the game (classic-Kunark) saw people hitting twice as hard, and having twice as much HP (not exactly, just roughly). If a magical breastplate can give me 50 extra HP, there's plenty of reasons to assume that the equipment we use makes us quite literally superhuman.
Even completely naked, my level 100 Monk in EQ can one shot an orc pawn for upwards of like 20000 damage. There's no way to assume that in real life terms, I wouldn't have literally kicked that orc pawn so hard that he became Norrath's third moon.
TL;DR: Our characters in fantasy games become absurdly powerful through gear/level progression. We're all basically superman, and holding enormous weapons that weigh as much as an elephant is probably child's play for godslayers.
I like the world to be realistic... I like a continent to feel huge and travel to be scaled with it. If it takes me five minutes to get from one side of the continent to the other without help from other players... I lose interest with the stuff that is happening between point A and point B. But if you give me substance between them... I care about the whole continent.
Want to know something that bothers me in these worlds though. How come seasons never rotate. I understand it would be a ton of work, but have rotating seasons for the areas that are not right on the equator. I am always running along a nice temperate climate with beautiful green trees, go through a tunnel and enter forever winterland. Imagine Kithicor forest... at night... during the winter.... glorious.
Interesting point, I mean you can have a character that is up for days in a row with no ill effects. this can be somewhat overlooked in a fantasy world-
But a far as realism I like to see it in a manner that is near what can be called wisdom. for instance: Music has charms to sooth the savage beast. The mouse chews the Ropes entrapping the lion making the lion remember the mouse with gratitude.
Or the Satyr that refuses to deal with humans because of the time it was walking with one in the snow and seeing the human blow on his hands to keep them warm, and then once inside sees the human blow on the soup to cool it down and the Satyr leaves angry and offended, yelling " You expect me to believe you can blow hot and cold with the same breath!"
A crafting questline that requires a timed- or temporal!- tailoring model for a stich in time, saves nine.
Timed: attempt the pattern in such amount of time and get 9 skillups or save 9 further attempts
Temporal: three sisters of fate! if the one crafter can stitch the fabric during this raid event, 9 will be saved- that can then rez up the raid or something.
I think you get the idea as far as realism, it is confidence booster to realize the game mechanic depends on a bit of learned wisdom- that is not taught in game but rather is pulled in from- the real.
Aesops fables, and other cultural morality/wisdom tales, kind of thing- lke the movie about the girl that rode the whales that was a cultural legend, or like in " the Gods must be Crazy" where the Rhino the fire warden, putting out fires when it sees them- that kind of thing.
Our characters in fantasy games become absurdly powerful through gear/level progression. We're all basically superman, and holding enormous weapons that weigh as much as an elephant is probably child's play for godslayers.
Thanks, Liav, for summarizing what has always bothered me to some degree about most MMOs these days. The difference between a hypothetical level 50 and a level 1 character is absurd. Obviously we gain weapons, armor, experience, etc … but how far do we stretch the difference within or between these characteristics/traits as we level? How much like superman do characters need to become?
