Arksien said:I'm all for gear and base stats, pretty opposed to public dps meters etc. Like, I enjoyed having a Magelo profile (especially for the stint I was #3 server wide for hp), and I think lots of people like that. It's especially fun when there's no clear best in slot gear, and you can say "look at the fairly unique gear combo I have come up with."
But when you have it where you can see a players highest dps average, their highest critical etc. then you can start running into problems. There are some pretty toxic communities out there because of this.
This site I am referring to is like Magelo but even less detailed, like VGPlayers, only fluff stats and your characters stats/info which you can set to private if you really want too, no one will bother to judge you based on what this site displays, which is basically the same info anyone can view in-game :)
Aggelos said:I agree with Liav. If you don’t present one way people will find a way to "exclude" people. It could be a matter of link me a piece of gear that drops from so and so dungeon or else we won’t group with you. It will happen and nothing you do will stop it, however, with Pantheon being such a community and group focused game, let the community regulate itself like it used to with people going to the forums and creating those blacklists saying so and so is a ninja looter etc. That’s how the community did it before why limit what we can see to "prevent" what you can’t stop anything. It is our job as a community to build a non-toxic environment.
True, all games have it, but I can't help but notice that games which include in game leader boards and epeen comparison tools have this toxicity in abundance, and games without tend to have the toxicity minimized on the back burner in a somewhat small community of the top raiders.
You won't do away with it ever, but I prefer the games where we just shut up and play over the ones where every other group has some jackass "checking up" on everyone and trying to run the numbers.
Posted on facebook but I'll just do a condensed version here.
Overall I'm a fan of character/stat pages. Instead of an opt in/out system I'd make some info private, some public, or make it all user selectable. When it's outside of game it gives you something to look at and show off to potential new players.
The down side is the potential for players to be snubbed based on stats. I know that will happen anyways but a web page makes it way more convenient.
Regardless of a stats page, there will always be people, groups and guilds that won't want what the think are lower end players. Good guilds would use the page to make lesser geared or skilled players better, not exclude them.
Arksien said:True, all games have it, but I can't help but notice that games which include in game leader boards and epeen comparison tools have this toxicity in abundance, and games without tend to have the toxicity minimized on the back burner in a somewhat small community of the top raiders.
You won't do away with it ever, but I prefer the games where we just shut up and play over the ones where every other group has some jackass "checking up" on everyone and trying to run the numbers.
True and I understand where you are coming from don't get me wrong but that is where I feel community comes in. Get in with a good community and stick with it. If you run across a jerk, just don't play with them. I am all about community. I have my Dungeon Crawler Network community that I play with and generally I stick to playing only with them. Especially if I know the content is difficult and I want to play with friends rather than risk a jerk PUG player.
I'm a sucker for these kind of stats. #of kills, death, quest completed, money earned, biggest hit recorded, etc. The more the better.
As for making them available offline, viewable to everyone and/or ranking accross servers, I don't care. I like having those stats available to me and probably won't be checking other players.
Magelo was a great character information respository and of a type that I wouldn't mind seeing again. What it allowed me to do was see where I wanted my character to go gear-wise. I could compare slots to those with stats higher than mine, see the item(s) then research where they dropped. If those raids were on our guild calendar, I'd prioritize my upgrades so I would know where to spend my RPP.
I also appreciated it tracking all the keys and access quests you had and sometimes I'd sit there trying to remember just how I got each of those keys.
I'd love to see lots of odd-stats be tracked: Number of death-touches taken; Number of times fallen to your death; Number of times you've drowned; Number of deaths by guards; Number of deaths by Cannabalize (for Shaman); Number of times summoned by NPC, etc.
I loved VG players to view myself and would like to see the fluffy stats like number of mobs killed and such. I'm for having everything in as long as i have the ability to remain anonymous.
I know there will be those who would require the ability see your page to be accepted in their clique but I can choose not to play with them. It would only be an issue, for me, if that was to become the norm to be included in most groups/guilds.
khaldin said:I loved VG players to view myself and would like to see the fluffy stats like number of mobs killed and such. I'm for having everything in as long as i have the ability to remain anonymous.
I know there will be those who would require the ability see your page to be accepted in their clique but I can choose not to play with them. It would only be an issue, for me, if that was to become the norm to be included in most groups/guilds.
Good thoughts and that is the crux on this whole thing. If there is a group of people that "require" you to show proof of this that or the other thing you as a player have the option of not associated with them.
Also remember that even if this would become the "norm" that there are groups that do not care one way or the other or have their own criteria. No matter how you look at it, every group (both in game or outside in the real world) has specific criteria to join. Even AARP requires you to be 55 years of age. Some guilds require you have the top end gear and know all the fight mechanics, some just require that you not be a jerk but there are still going to be a requirement you have to meet to join a group.
I’m sorry, if my best friend said "Hey Aggelos! I want to join your raid group but I only know how to use "Bind Wound" on my Warrior and I refuse to learn how to play!" it doesn’t matter if I don’t have strict requirements to join my group but there has to be a line somewhere.
Wandidar said:While I personally enjoy seeing where I sit in relation to the rest of the population - It's not anything I really need to see.
I agree. It is a nice to have. IF it is easy to implement, by all means go for it, otherwise I would rather see development time focus on more impactful things.
khaldin said:I loved VG players to view myself and would like to see the fluffy stats like number of mobs killed and such. I'm for having everything in as long as i have the ability to remain anonymous.
I know there will be those who would require the ability see your page to be accepted in their clique but I can choose not to play with them. It would only be an issue, for me, if that was to become the norm to be included in most groups/guilds.
Absolutely Khaldin :)
jimm0thy said:I don't really see the need for it and would rather not see it as part of the game, just adds another factor to causing elistist attitudes.
Nothing is really fluff, as any numerical representation of anything in the game will make some people compete
Jimm0thy, are you familiar with VGPlayers or EQ2Players? It's just fluff stats and character info that you can switch to private if you like, it doesn't display combat info or for competitive judging based on gear/skills/stats, it's just a nice option for people who want to check their characters and stats while away from the game, most of thew info is available in-game anyway but allows you to view it from work etc :)
I liked VG Players and Magelo.
Maybe it's cause my memory sucks but it's nice to be able to check my stuff out of game so, I like the idea of showing stats and equipment. Didn't VG players also post screen shots as you accomplished certain things? That was cool too.
I'm not worried at all about being excluded from a group because of any info found there. A group or person who thinks like that is not someone I have ever played with. Don't see a reason to start now. :)
I see it as comprable to fantasy sports, but instead of fantasy football, you have fantasy....fantasy. Personally, I prefer to follow the team as a whole and agonize over making a good jersey choice partly because they are expensive and partly because I want to choose a name of a player that wil be there for a few years. I dont want to get a jersey just to see/hear of the player being traded or moved away the next season.
So, the player stats would be more meaningfull to me if I knew how to apply said stats to game play, and this is where things like STR = more carry weight, or DEX = better success in crafting but not skill ups? comes into play. However I do not obsess or determine who I will group with or who is a good player based on stats alone.
But this does not mean I dont appreciate those who do. I like seeing the charts and stuff they put together, even if on a third party platform.
I remember hearing a drawn out and memorable- and I mean like over 2-3 years of playing an forum posting- of a SK that was passionate about the difference between AC and HP and which was better. His point of view was that AC was more crucial than raw HP. I didn;t care, but I respected his position and passion for it.
I remember magelo was fun, but if Pantheon had a 1/2 party platform, that was sort of a stop to the side of log -in, where you could maybe check your outfit on a phone, or after you log in on a PC but before you choose a server and if it had limited/colorful information like 6 STR: you can carry a full bag or two iron axes comfortably but not run, and 6 dex: Baking is easy for you! but you cannot yet throw pots on a wheel
Malsirian said:I liked VG Players and Magelo.
Maybe it's cause my memory sucks but it's nice to be able to check my stuff out of game so, I like the idea of showing stats and equipment. Didn't VG players also post screen shots as you accomplished certain things? That was cool too.
I'm not worried at all about being excluded from a group because of any info found there. A group or person who thinks like that is not someone I have ever played with. Don't see a reason to start now. :)
Yes, when you leveled up (dinged) it took a screenshot in game and pushed it to the VGPlayers site to show where you were when that happened, plus when you get world first discoveries etc. it was a nice little touch :)
Manouk said:I see it as comprable to fantasy sports, but instead of fantasy football, you have fantasy....fantasy. Personally, I prefer to follow the team as a whole and agonize over making a good jersey choice partly because they are expensive and partly because I want to choose a name of a player that wil be there for a few years. I dont want to get a jersey just to see/hear of the player being traded or moved away the next season.
So, the player stats would be more meaningfull to me if I knew how to apply said stats to game play, and this is where things like STR = more carry weight, or DEX = better success in crafting but not skill ups? comes into play. However I do not obsess or determine who I will group with or who is a good player based on stats alone.
But this does not mean I dont appreciate those who do. I like seeing the charts and stuff they put together, even if on a third party platform.
I remember hearing a drawn out and memorable- and I mean like over 2-3 years of playing an forum posting- of a SK that was passionate about the difference between AC and HP and which was better. His point of view was that AC was more crucial than raw HP. I didn;t care, but I respected his position and passion for it.
I remember magelo was fun, but if Pantheon had a 1/2 party platform, that was sort of a stop to the side of log -in, where you could maybe check your outfit on a phone, or after you log in on a PC but before you choose a server and if it had limited/colorful information like 6 STR: you can carry a full bag or two iron axes comfortably but not run, and 6 dex: Baking is easy for you! but you cannot yet throw pots on a wheel
The idea I had in mind didn't display as many stats and info as Magelo, it was more for viewing your character and stats out of game when you were at work, or passing the time, it wouldn't be a system where someone could rank/rate or judge you based on your skills or gear, we wouldn't let that happen and I am disheartened to see so many posts thinking we would let that happen! ;)
Kilsin said:The idea I had in mind didn't display as many stats and info as Magelo, it was more for viewing your character and stats out of game when you were at work, or passing the time, it wouldn't be a system where someone could rank/rate or judge you based on your skills or gear, we wouldn't let that happen and I am disheartened to see so many posts thinking we would let that happen! ;)
Just out of curiosity, why would I ever want to view my character stats out of game? The only time it ever really makes sense was for me to compare myself against other people using Megalo. I don't really think there would be any drive for most people to view it otherwise.
Kilsin said:Malsirian said:I liked VG Players and Magelo.
Maybe it's cause my memory sucks but it's nice to be able to check my stuff out of game so, I like the idea of showing stats and equipment. Didn't VG players also post screen shots as you accomplished certain things? That was cool too.
I'm not worried at all about being excluded from a group because of any info found there. A group or person who thinks like that is not someone I have ever played with. Don't see a reason to start now. :)
Yes, when you leveled up (dinged) it took a screenshot in game and pushed it to the VGPlayers site to show where you were when that happened, plus when you get world first discoveries etc. it was a nice little touch :)
This would be awesome! I love screenshots but sometimes I forget to hit the button but having it auto take a screenshot when you dinged would be great! It would also be neat if that was expanded to achievements if they exist in Pantheon!
Aggelos said:This would be awesome! I love screenshots but sometimes I forget to hit the button but having it auto take a screenshot when you dinged would be great! It would also be neat if that was expanded to achievements if they exist in Pantheon!
Same with me. :) Always wish I had more screenshots. If I remember correctly, VG Players made a brief blog-like entry about where you were and what you'd accomplished. So when you looked at someones profile it gave you a little history of what they'd been up to. It was always fun looking at my friends pages. I agree that having achievements included in that would be very cool! :)
I very much enjoyed Magelo and VGPlayers and that they could be made private if desired. I would prefer external data, but wouldnt' be opposed bringing these statistics in-game as long as it's done correctly. For some reason WoW's gearscore system keeps coming to mind, although I know this likely not what is implied by this question.
As long as we can avoid this hypothetical scenario, I'll be fine with whatever:
Kilsin shouts, "Wild Ends group needs 1 dps, lvl 50 - PST!"
You tell Kilsin, "50 rogue here if you still have room"
Kilsin tells you, "Gearscore?"
You tell Kilsin, "73"
- silence -
Kilsin tells the group, "50 rogue, 73 gearscore ok?"
TheTank tells the group, "too low, we should try to get someone with a minimum of 75 gearscore."
Kilsin tells the group, "ok ill keep looking"
Kilsin shouts, "Wild Ends group needs 1 dps, lvl 50 - PST!"
you tell Kilsin, "???"
Now, I could be the most skilled rogue in the game, but my "gearscore" has disqualified me. My worth has been measured, judgement has been cast, and I'm not tall enough to ride the roller coaster. They feel they're doing what's best for the group, but in reality they're passing on a very skilled player. I hate hate hate this system, and I hope you do too. Please keep this out of Pantheon, it doesn't do anyone any good. I'm positive this is not what was implied, but I had to get it off my chest.
I'm all for stats about my character and server/global leader boards as long we're careful about how we're compiling and presenting the data. If this does come to fruition, I'd also like the option to make my profile/data private or anonymous.
Liav said:Kilsin said:The idea I had in mind didn't display as many stats and info as Magelo, it was more for viewing your character and stats out of game when you were at work, or passing the time, it wouldn't be a system where someone could rank/rate or judge you based on your skills or gear, we wouldn't let that happen and I am disheartened to see so many posts thinking we would let that happen! ;)
Just out of curiosity, why would I ever want to view my character stats out of game? The only time it ever really makes sense was for me to compare myself against other people using Megalo. I don't really think there would be any drive for most people to view it otherwise.
Because you can check the latest drop you got and the stats on it, check your faction levels to see how close you are or what you need to work on when you get home, figure out your crafting stats/gear etc. there is usually a lot of information that your character is associated with and when you cannot play the game, you would have access to most of that information via a website, it also helps you plan changes to your character by working out your ratings on your gear if you're into min/maxing but for the average person, it's just nice to see pretty much all the info you can see in-game, on a website to view while away from the game, it was used quite a lot in VGPlayers as it did a number of other things too like publishing screenshots every time you leveled, discovered world firsts, gave guild information etc.
It's not for everyone but a lot of people do use it and enjoy it as a way of connecting to their characters while they are unable to play.
Aggelos said:Kilsin said:Malsirian said:I liked VG Players and Magelo.
Maybe it's cause my memory sucks but it's nice to be able to check my stuff out of game so, I like the idea of showing stats and equipment. Didn't VG players also post screen shots as you accomplished certain things? That was cool too.
I'm not worried at all about being excluded from a group because of any info found there. A group or person who thinks like that is not someone I have ever played with. Don't see a reason to start now. :)
Yes, when you leveled up (dinged) it took a screenshot in game and pushed it to the VGPlayers site to show where you were when that happened, plus when you get world first discoveries etc. it was a nice little touch :)
This would be awesome! I love screenshots but sometimes I forget to hit the button but having it auto take a screenshot when you dinged would be great! It would also be neat if that was expanded to achievements if they exist in Pantheon!
It was pretty cool and an achievement system is certainly something we can look into :)