Shea said:Puzzles are alright in moderation , but not if it means getting through content . Eso imho had far to many and seemed like every dungeon had them .
As Kilsin has mentioned not everyone can or wants to do them . Really a shame far rather Diplo then puzzles /Hint Hint Hint
Yeah, absolutely Shea, I would also rather Diplo, you know me! haha :)
Vandraad said:Expand the thought a bit...make an entire zone a puzzle. Plane of Mischief anyone? That zone was one big mind%*@#. I loved going there (back when the entrance was a tiny dollhouse sitting in North Temple of Veeshan behind a dozen huge dragons) because it was so far different than anywhere else.
The only other puzzle I ever liked (up until it became so memorized you could run it in your sleep) was the maze area in Skyshrine. A series of hallways, all looking the same, filled with wandering Wurms, that had invisible wall teleporters. You had to run the correct route to get to the top of Skyshrine where the quest givers were located.
I really liked spawn puzzles, like Cyclops in South Ro or Pyzjn in Qeynos Hills or some of the boss mobs in Ssra Temple where you had to have certain NPCs dead (sometimes only at a certain time of day) for there to be a chance the one thing you wanted to spawn would spawn.
Yeah, nice Vandraad, some cool idea's and examples! :)
Mekada said:I'm okay with the occasional riddle, jumping puzzle or lever puzzles, but please, no Simon Says mini-game. WoW and Wildstar had those and I hated it.
Yeah, nice and I agree, moderation is definitely the key with puzzles, too many and they feel forced and frustrating but scattered around every now and then can be a refreshing surprise to break up the everyday life ;) ~Kils
Malsirian said:Absolutely! Love seeing in-game puzzles. Riddles from quest givers or hidden within scraps of lore are cool. Mazes can be frustratingly fun. Not a huge fan of Simon style puzzles but not awful. The sound puzzle zaktaros mentioned sounds cool. Jumping puzzles can be fun too, almost like a vertical maze. I still remember getting those stupid Halloween shoes in gw2. ugh. But how cool was it when you finally made it?
Yeah, nice Malsirian, haha yeah it was rewarding to finally complete those ;)
Eldryth said:If you want to see how much great puzzles can add to an MMO, just look at The Secret World. Overall considered a very mediocre game, at best, with poor combat and character customization- but they still have a solid niche for their great puzzles alone. It's worth trying just to see some of their early Investigation Missions- the first couple I came across had me researching the fictional town's history for clues, as well as the Bible. Another involved translating from Morse code- that would be the only one I couldn't solve myself. Unfortunately, I didn't enjoy the rest of the game, so I never got far enough to see too many of these, but my point is- puzzles in quests can be great! Especially since you're going for more memorable quests, it would be great to see puzzles involved- and would certainly love to come across them in Epic quests. Even more so if it involves knowing the world's lore- such as finding a location based on vague hints about it's history.
How could i forget that damn morse code quest in TSW!!!
the investigation quests in TSW were great. I remeber one that took me a while that in the end revolved around me having to die to be able to see messages left by the dead, very enjoyable. yeah combat was 'new' but i loved the game for the questing and lore
I'm torn to be honest. I loved puzzles in Single player games like D&D and Might and Magic and they added the utility that I want classes in Pantheon to have. Like puzzles that required classes to use all their abilities such as a warrior being able to bash walls, or use strength to bust open chests versus lockpicking them. Or a rogue being able to /throw a weapon across a trap hole to activate a wall switch to close the trap.
However, how do you implement puzzles without making them gimmicky or forced and only exist because the warrior/rogue etc. have the skill? Gone are the days were you have to "figure out" the puzzles and it would simply be a /Google fest.
So, yes, I would want them, but, I have no idea how to implement them without them feeling trivial. I haven't played Secret World though, so I'll check that out.
Always liked the idea of having randomly generated locks to pick. Nothing too fancy, just something that requires more than 5 minutes to learn. Seems like it could be pretty easy to implement some advantages too for acquiring some "better" lockpicking tools. For instance, if there is an "x" that occurs and you need a "y" to respond to it, but there is a 5 second base delay between your ability to respond, a better lockpick could reduce that time to make things a little quicker.
On another note, I also don't really care at all if they just scrapped such a system altogether and didn't have lockpicking available to Rogues. I've played Rogues where they do or don't and it honestly is just kind of annoying and unnecessary.
Raidan said:I'm torn to be honest. I loved puzzles in Single player games like D&D and Might and Magic and they added the utility that I want classes in Pantheon to have. Like puzzles that required classes to use all their abilities such as a warrior being able to bash walls, or use strength to bust open chests versus lockpicking them. Or a rogue being able to /throw a weapon across a trap hole to activate a wall switch to close the trap.
However, how do you implement puzzles without making them gimmicky or forced and only exist because the warrior/rogue etc. have the skill? Gone are the days were you have to "figure out" the puzzles and it would simply be a /Google fest.
So, yes, I would want them, but, I have no idea how to implement them without them feeling trivial. I haven't played Secret World though, so I'll check that out.
Yeah, that is a good comparison to make too, they are part of the older mechanics from games we loved and want to build on, but how do we go about it! It is not guaranteed that we will have any in Pantheon, but I am fairly certain that there will be cool little surprises scattered around the very large world that is Terminus, knowing the Devs ;)
Liav said:Always liked the idea of having randomly generated locks to pick. Nothing too fancy, just something that requires more than 5 minutes to learn. Seems like it could be pretty easy to implement some advantages too for acquiring some "better" lockpicking tools. For instance, if there is an "x" that occurs and you need a "y" to respond to it, but there is a 5 second base delay between your ability to respond, a better lockpick could reduce that time to make things a little quicker.
On another note, I also don't really care at all if they just scrapped such a system altogether and didn't have lockpicking available to Rogues. I've played Rogues where they do or don't and it honestly is just kind of annoying and unnecessary.
That is a pretty interesting idea and sounds cool to me, but putting the timer on it in an MMORPG can be difficult with everyone playing with different latency and ping but even without the timer, it sounds pretty cool.
I play as a Rogue main and it doesn;t honestly bother me either if it is included or not, I do like poisons and darts though, like we had in VG, that was pretty cool until they nerfed it and made it buy from a vendor instead of crafting ourselves.
Kilsin said:That is a pretty interesting idea and sounds cool to me, but putting the timer on it in an MMORPG can be difficult with everyone playing with different latency and ping but even without the timer, it sounds pretty cool.
I play as a Rogue main and it doesn;t honestly bother me either if it is included or not, I do like poisons and darts though, like we had in VG, that was pretty cool until they nerfed it and made it buy from a vendor instead of crafting ourselves.
Yeah, I liked messing around with the utility darts and such in VG on my alt Rogue. It was neat. Good way to bring utility to a class, too, that is otherwise usually completely worthless outside of putting up the highest melee DPS numbers possible. That said, I play only for the DPS numbers anyway so I think that explains a lot of my apathy towards the tertiary mechanics like lockpicking.
Regarding the latency, EQ2's crafting system utilizes a system like this where various "complications" come up and require "countering" within a limited time frame. I believe it's 3-5 seconds. A timer of 5 seconds would require a ping of 5000 to miss, which I'm not even sure should be allowed without being kicked from the server to prevent exploitation. Anything above 300ms is generally where player performance begins to suffer in MMORPGs (depending on mechanics), and that's only 1/3s of latency approximately.
Liav said:Kilsin said:That is a pretty interesting idea and sounds cool to me, but putting the timer on it in an MMORPG can be difficult with everyone playing with different latency and ping but even without the timer, it sounds pretty cool.
I play as a Rogue main and it doesn;t honestly bother me either if it is included or not, I do like poisons and darts though, like we had in VG, that was pretty cool until they nerfed it and made it buy from a vendor instead of crafting ourselves.
Yeah, I liked messing around with the utility darts and such in VG on my alt Rogue. It was neat. Good way to bring utility to a class, too, that is otherwise usually completely worthless outside of putting up the highest melee DPS numbers possible. That said, I play only for the DPS numbers anyway so I think that explains a lot of my apathy towards the tertiary mechanics like lockpicking.
Regarding the latency, EQ2's crafting system utilizes a system like this where various "complications" come up and require "countering" within a limited time frame. I believe it's 3-5 seconds. A timer of 5 seconds would require a ping of 5000 to miss, which I'm not even sure should be allowed without being kicked from the server to prevent exploitation. Anything above 300ms is generally where player performance begins to suffer in MMORPGs (depending on mechanics), and that's only 1/3s of latency approximately.
While that is correct about ping it doesn't stop lag spikes and complete lag freezing, which even with the best ping/internet can reduce a game to a dead stop for a period of time, making you unable to react to those types of timers. It happened to me in VG during crafting too and was pretty annoying, especially when crafting epic weapons or armour, it usually resulted in a complete fail and putting a support ticket in for a GM to give your mats back to try again (as they were very expensive), so I am speaking from experience as an Australian forced to play on US servers, some of it is out of the players control ;)
Having bad ping or internet is one thing but network lag or server lag is a different beast that many MMORPGs suffer from sadly, so while a timer could be added, it would need to be around the 5-10 second mark and if it is that long, is there any real point to having one at all? Either way, the idea is cool, just may need some extra thought put into the timer if it's required.
One of the coolest and most fun puzzles I encountered in ESO was coming across a hidden treasure quest. It starts off with a clue to get your next clue, which eventually leads you to the treasure. When opened, it has a %chance to be different tiers of gear or goods. The part I really liked is it often steered you to a landmark you had to find, then standing in the right location, you stare through a feature of the landmark to get the approximate location for your next clue (which is way off in the distance mind you).
So for example, you find a torn note that has a riddle to get to your next piece. This riddle is creatively done, usually leading you to an identifiable landmark (broken ship along the coast). Due to the note, you figure out to swim under water and up inside the broken ship for your next clue. It then creatively sends you to an abandoned lighthouse to which you must navigate to the top. Once up at the top, you look (must be first person view) through a segment of the lighthouse, in correct direction (as indicated from the clue) and it frames a unique mountain peak in the distance. After a journey, you make it to the mountain peak, you see a rustic statue which has your next clue. etc...
The result is a good chance at something useful. Consider these epic treasure finds but are quite fun. I would not mind seeing these be a %chance to find these torn treasue maps throughout the world. Each being equal to level of the place where you loot it.
Pyye said:One of the coolest and most fun puzzles I encountered in ESO was coming across a hidden treasure quest. It starts off with a clue to get your next clue, which eventually leads you to the treasure. When opened, it has a %chance to be different tiers of gear or goods. The part I really liked is it often steered you to a landmark you had to find, then standing in the right location, you stare through a feature of the landmark to get the approximate location for your next clue (which is way off in the distance mind you).
So for example, you find a torn note that has a riddle to get to your next piece. This riddle is creatively done, usually leading you to an identifiable landmark (broken ship along the coast). Due to the note, you figure out to swim under water and up inside the broken ship for your next clue. It then creatively sends you to an abandoned lighthouse to which you must navigate to the top. Once up at the top, you look (must be first person view) through a segment of the lighthouse, in correct direction (as indicated from the clue) and it frames a unique mountain peak in the distance. After a journey, you make it to the mountain peak, you see a rustic statue which has your next clue. etc...
The result is a good chance at something useful. Consider these epic treasure finds but are quite fun. I would not mind seeing these be a %chance to find these torn treasue maps throughout the world. Each being equal to level of the place where you loot it.
Yeah, I enjoyed them too and that type of system goes way back to Runescape (possibly even before) with a similar treasure hunt style of puzzle, mobs would randomly and rarely drop a map piece, combine two together and you get a clue that you follow, they can be very fun and sometimes very challenging :)
Manouk said:I love clever puzzles. Example: Queynos Badge of Honor questline. the portion with the diseased rats you had to cure? - I really enjoyed. It was different. Someo fthe puzzles in Riven were good, as well as Journeyman Project ( whoah, that is a bit back there)
Yeah, nice Manouk! :)
I really enjoyed the puzzles in RIFT.
You'd run up a mountain and see a tonne of rocks in a strange order and glowing. You can right click them which moves them around, if you assemble them in the 'correct' way you received an achievement, title and gold reward.
Seeing people with strange titles because they've found out of place puzzles was really fun.
Kaelang said:I really enjoyed the puzzles in RIFT.
You'd run up a mountain and see a tonne of rocks in a strange order and glowing. You can right click them which moves them around, if you assemble them in the 'correct' way you received an achievement, title and gold reward.
Seeing people with strange titles because they've found out of place puzzles was really fun.
Yeah, little things like this are fun for most :)
I guess that most of us that are coming from a MUD background are used to all quests being more like puzzles where you would have to figure something out instead of collect/kill type quests.
Vanguard had a few of those, not as many as I would have liked though.
I do hope that we will see more things like that in Pantheon.
I love puzzles that require patience to win. As an example, I play on a lot of different EQ Emulators and one of my favorites is the EZ Server which is a heavily modified EQ emulator that has tons of original content (some of which Pantheon should look at implementing… Another discussion for sure…) and one of the best puzzles is a type of patience quest called “The Hushed Banquet”, this is part of a questline that is needed to upgrade your Epic to 2.5. T
The general gist of the quest requires you to find keys that are in barrels (keys are rare spawns…) and you will use these keys to open locked chests that may or may not have the Epic Book 2.5, this also requires you to avoid Beholders who are roaming all over the place slowly moving through the halls. If a Beholder see’s you (directly looks at you LOS) you are transported out of the zone and required to start over. You can easily spend hours in there gathering keys to try on various locked chests while at the same time avoiding the gaze of a Beholder.
Its not a true Puzzle in the sense of the word, but it requires figuring out the pathing and locations of the Beholders while hoping you get enough keys in time before being booted out if caught by a Beholder.
Rint
Kilsin said:Do you like solving in-game puzzles and if so, what types of puzzles do you like the best or consider the most enjoyable or challenging? :)
The first time, yes, they are great. Having to go through the motions (once the puzzle has been solved and posted across thousands of websites) every time you want to visit that location then not-so-much. Give me a key to get past it. Its the same as the thread on traps. They are great the first time, but after that? Irrelevant.
Who here remember the run from the entrance of Skyshrine up to the class armor quest givers? Do you remember the maze section? It was fun trying to solve it the first time, but by the 100th time you've run your butt up there for yourself, guildmates and friends, that maze was nothing but a waste of time.
And what about that fake bridge / invisible bridge in The Deep? Hysterical the first time watching someone run up to the visible but fake bridge and falling to their death. Crossing that invisible bridge the 1000th time on a way to a raid and watching half your raid get out of line by a half step and fall to their deaths? Still funny but also now just an annoying time sink. The uniqueness was long since gone.
I really like to solve puzzles, in real life or in a game. This is the reason I like (point & click) adventure games a lot.
But as some of the other posters mentioned, this riddles and puzzles do not have a huge replayability. If there are more than one way to solve a problem then there is a chance to do it again, but if you just repeat the same steps as you have done before, then this is not a lot of fun.
Maybe if the riddles can be a bit dynamic, then this would be really fun. Or at least they should be good hidden and not as mentioned above the hurdle to enter a dungeon and you have to do them over and over again.
While I love puzzles and riddles in games, I'm not sure if a MMORPG is the right game for them. But I have high hopes in the developers, that they manage to add a few puzzles and riddles in the game, that are great fun and that they avoid to anoy the players by forcing them to solve the problems over and over again following the same steps as the times before.
I'm thinking in the days of Google puzzles would have to be more physical. I think the idea of splitting the party into different places to do different things - get them out of their group comfort zone for a bit - something dynamic.
This dungeon door only opens if the rogue is in the room beyond a locked door, the wizard is meditating in the library, the cleric has forced that zombie into that corner and the warrior leaps and hits the bell on the other side of that chasm. When they all do that, they teleport into the dungeon. One gets it wrong and they are teleported... somewhere else. The locations could be marked, but not always the same - somewhat dynamic, but not too badly down to timing. Something you could look up, but never exactly the same each time so it needs some care.
*shrug*