I would like to see things like a book in a dusty old library, you read and it just seems like a normal lore book but there are a few things in the text which could lead you to a certain location and do a certain thing which would unlock a cave or chest or something. The type of thing that no-one knows exists until someone happens to work it out. No quest pop up or anything that obviously leads you to follow the clues, just things like that in the game that may or may not ever even be discovered...
Dynamic treasure hunts would be great, you loot a note with a picture of where the next clue is and it could be a random screen shot of anywhere in the game world you have to find, much like the chocobo treasure hunt game from FFIX just with the pictures not set. That way you wouldn't just get people googling the solution as it would be completely random...
Puzzles huh? oh boy!
What about an unnaturally dark labrynth, with aminotaur hunting you down and a crystal ball in it somewhere that levels your perception up.
A forest so dense you can't squeeze between a lot of the trees, maybe with a nice shrine in the middle that contains a clue to an epic skill.
An invisible bridge across a vast chasm that leads to a unique vendor that you have to use poor acclamation (cold or wind or something) to detect where the bridge path is.
A sealed door that leads to a raid boss that requires the execution of 6 alternatingly different mastered skills simultaneously.
I think pathway and jumping/climbing puzzles are totally ok. And choose your adventure type lockout pathways would be cool go left and find your way out. Or even word or story games like a sphinx asking a question that is unique to each player through perception.
If i could design a zone i would totally do lockout pathways that force you to dungeon crawl and to get back to corpses you have to remember the path. Its repeatable, and all paths eventually lead to a boss and an exit, but if you hate spiders you can avoid any spider paths altogether. But you would have to venture around the bend before you would see the spiders and would have to remember where they are.
Yeah I like the usual stuff, but what I would really like to see is personalised ones also.
For example there are some complex Easter Egg puzzles in Battlefield 1 where the *technique* to solve them is the same for everyone, but because the actual solution is personal you all have to understand and use that technique and can't just follow precise instructions from the internet.
The EE puzzles in BF took hours to complete even though you could look up *how* to do them, to actually do them still took understanding and effort.
I recommend the VR devs look up the Battlefield 4 and Battlefield 1 Easter Eggs ;^)
I come from DDO, which has a ton of puzzles. I personally find them very fun to solve when done well - floor puzzles, logic puzzles, jumping puzzles, etc. But of course, would prefer for them to make sense within the context of the dungeon. For example, a cave that's inhabited by ogres is not likely to have any complicated puzzles in it. But I know respecting lore is already a top priority for a team, so that should go without saying. Puzzles don't have to very common imo - DDO probably overdid it a little bit. But I think it brings a whole new level of thinking and problem solving into the game, and that's a good thing. There may be some people that aren't very skilled in combat but really have a mind for puzzles and that would help keep them desirable.
I hate puzzles. And with answers available on-line 5 minutes after the first person solves them, no they aren't challenging more than quite briefly.
But that pales into insignificance compared to my feeling toward things that you need to jump to get to (other than fairly simple jumps where a failure doesn't kill you or make you redo half an hour of progress.)
Pantheon isn't a first person shooter. It isn't a game of reflexes. It won't have twitch combat where player speed dominates and gear and character abilities are secondary. Don't hold our characters hostage because some players are older, have poorer vision, have slower reflexes, have below average connections (do not sneer approximately half of all players will have below average connections I absolutely guarantee it) or simply ...what is the modern phrase ....suck at jumping.
Jumping puzzles are awful, abominable, atrocious, anathma. No, no, absolutely no to jumping puzzles on anythinbg that matters. If you want to have a few off in an isolated spot to give people titles that won't hurt me but do NOT gate real content or unusually valuable items behind the player's coordination and twitchiness.
Also - Pantheon is group-focused although not exclusively for grouping. Think of a group going rapidly crazy as one or two people just can't do the accursed jumps and no one can help them. I've seen that it didn't end well.
Vanguard's Diplomacy mechanics were awesome. I would have LOVED to seen that aspect fleshed out more. The TCG for Everquest (I and II), "Legends of Norrath" was also a lot of fun for me. I played up until the day they shut it down and was quite bummed about that too. The sheer number of cards and rewards I had from that was nothing short of amazing. I would love to see more of this in Pantheon!
Also, the floor part of the raid for Roehn Theer was something to be experienced. It was awesome but sure made it difficult in relying on so many people knowing how to use it during a raid. The puzzle itself wasn't that hard, but getting everyone to react in a timely manner where ping could effect it on an epic scale - that was an issue. The "puzzle" part of the Djinn Master's raid was way, WAY, over the top. It was not enjoyable in any way. It made me want to quit playing EQII. I didn't quit, but wasn't able to complete that raid until years later when i went in solo as an Illusionist and solo'd him and simply ignored the puzzle altogether. The biggest problems with adding complicated puzzles to the mechanics of a raid is that you have to allow for timing differentials between the members of the raid force. It is unreliable at the best.
(edit, spelling, etc.)
I've enjoyed puzzles in a game. I know many fast pace players didn't bother figuring things out and just grabbed someone who knew what they were doing to get where they wanted to go.
Puzzle; I'll try and put some references from eq2. You had a very small portion of jumping puzzles. I've seen the stream on pantheon where the mage solves the river bridge puzzle. That seems like nice things to add. It gives classes more usefullness outside combat and dept. It also allows for different landfeatures/landscapes then the normal run, ride, swim. There should be some lara croft terrain puzzles. Nature doesn't build roads on itself, it's manmad
I enjoyed riddles where you need to kill mobs in the correct sequence in order to unlock all chests for example (EQ2 mistmyr manor). Or when you need to blow up walls in a certain way so that you can access npc's and continue forward (freethinkerer hideout eq2). Or where you need to mix and match symbols and colors in order to unlock a door (emperor's athenaeum eq2). I really enjoyed the placement puzzle, where players need to stand in place that differ in function and fight a mob at the same time (rhoen theer eq2). Pushing boulders to open up a passage way (Guk Halls of the fallen eq2). Granted all these are not for everyone, but that's not your question here is it.
Actually, the fact that players might choose not to engage in this content, might provide another dept into community entanglement. As those that did solve the puzzle would be sought after to join and clear away those obstacles for others.
Another idea of a puzzle is where one needs to collect pieces/fragments of images, texts or maps to proceed with quests or understand where to head next. These things can be found all over the world and ones combined they could either dissappear or become house items. So when the quest is completed, the player could go have a read in his house if he wants to head back to that place.
In eq2 a lot of tiny puzzles came back during fluffy events. Perhaps that's another angle to work in these puzzles. They would not be a requirement for players but those that choose to participate in events can go ahead and work those puzzles.
Bronsun said:Another necro thread. Children shouldn't play with dead things. :D
Kilsin actually prefers that threads be necro'd in order to keep things consolidated rather than having multiple threads open on the same topic. That may change in the future, but for now these are development forums and are therefore a little different than regular forums ;)
Mordecai I agree that certain classes should have special abilities and these abilities may be necessary to do some content. Like the rope or bird you mention.
The distinction I was drawing is twofold.
1. Gating content behind how adept the *player* is with hand-eye coordination rather than what skills, abilities and gear the *characters* have.
2. Making every character in a group have to do something that not every player can do - making the group highly frustrating or impossible - versus *requiring* a group since certain character abilities are needed. The latter fits far better with Panteon's core focus.
SWTOR had some jumping puzzles - a few really difficult. This didn't really bother me since none was necessary to unlock content or complete any significant areas. They gave optional rewards for those that liked that nonsense - fine - I don't expect all of us to like the same things.
Rift had a quasi-jumping quest that was required to unlock some significant things near what was then the endgame. After complaints on the forums by a fair number of us produced no relief I simply left.
I mention that to underscore that my objection isn't to having any hand-eye coordination tests - it is to having it gate significant content.
Kilsin said:Do you like solving in-game puzzles and if so, what types of puzzles do you like the best or consider the most enjoyable or challenging? :)
While I like the concept of puzzles, unless you have completely unique puzzles showing up they quickly become diseminated across the internet and then become not-puzzles.
Kipling said: I would like to see things like a book in a dusty old library, you read and it just seems like a normal lore book but there are a few things in the text which could lead you to a certain location and do a certain thing which would unlock a cave or chest or something. The type of thing that no-one knows exists until someone happens to work it out. No quest pop up or anything that obviously leads you to follow the clues, just things like that in the game that may or may not ever even be discovered...
I do like this idea, but only if the game has an auto-journal that keeps a record of everything you read in game. When I'm out adventuring, or even just exploring, I really don't want to spend a lot of time reading long stories. Heck even more than one short paragraph and I'm ready to click 'close' on the book window and move on. So if I find a book like that in a dusty bookcase, I'd like to be able to open it up and have my game 'save' the fact that my character read the book and record the data in a special 'book log' or something like that. Then later on when I'm done adventuring and or sitting in town waiting for friends, I could pop open my book log and actually take the time to read through the Lore or whatever was in that dusty old book I found earlier. Same would go for posters, or plaque's, or whatever else my toon might read while out in the world. Needs to be saved in a log so I can take the time to go over it again later.
GoofyWarriorGuy said:Kipling said: I would like to see things like a book in a dusty old library, you read and it just seems like a normal lore book but there are a few things in the text which could lead you to a certain location and do a certain thing which would unlock a cave or chest or something. The type of thing that no-one knows exists until someone happens to work it out. No quest pop up or anything that obviously leads you to follow the clues, just things like that in the game that may or may not ever even be discovered...
I do like this idea, but only if the game has an auto-journal that keeps a record of everything you read in game. When I'm out adventuring, or even just exploring, I really don't want to spend a lot of time reading long stories. Heck even more than one short paragraph and I'm ready to click 'close' on the book window and move on. So if I find a book like that in a dusty bookcase, I'd like to be able to open it up and have my game 'save' the fact that my character read the book and record the data in a special 'book log' or something like that. Then later on when I'm done adventuring and or sitting in town waiting for friends, I could pop open my book log and actually take the time to read through the Lore or whatever was in that dusty old book I found earlier. Same would go for posters, or plaque's, or whatever else my toon might read while out in the world. Needs to be saved in a log so I can take the time to go over it again later.
That is a totally legit point Goofy. I would specifically use this in relation to the subject of another thread about pointless time sinks. I would certainly fish while waiting on a boat or while on a boat. If that is not available, I would catch up on my in-game reading. There are plenty of people here that want nothing more than to rub your nose into "Socialization" and FORCE you to do it 24/7 in this game and they used the pointless time sinks thread to again enforce that train of thought. I am doing that in guild chat at all times and don't need further enforced encouragement, I would catch up on my in-game reading if VR really is all about creating excessive downtimes for ...whatever reason.
Im a fan of puzzles.
I really like putting together map pieces found throughout hidden areas to find a hidden island thats uncharted. Perhaps the locations change every few hours of game time.
I enjoy jumping puzzles to find hidden chest - rewards.
Puzzles such as a series of boulders that must be pushed aside in the correct order to find a hidden tunnel.
Having a enviromental puzzle such as destroying specific ice blocked caverns with fire which could lead to dead ends treasure and powerful foes.
How about a message to decode from a goddess of Terminus that has been attached to fallen stars. These stars would put together a map to find a very powerful type of magic spell.
How about a sand puzzle that players must research desert artifacts perhaps washing the artifact in a specific area of water to decode the messages hidden throughout the sands to unlock a door inside a pyramid.
Mazes that may be within a mountain teams of players must navigate to solve using jumping and climbing tactics have many wrong paths.
I would like to see certain things change daily weekly monthly so internet guides may not be right and increase exploration.
How about climbing around a volcanos interior to find books on necromancy if you can find the way even if you know the way its a challenge.
Some types of puzzles in game are ok such as having to split the group or raid(like the Titan raid in DDO) up for them to go different paths to throw switches or kill certain mobs to unlock the way for the group or raid to continue moving forward. But sticking me in a room where I have to spend 45 minutes figuring out how to move floor tile z inbetween floor tiles b and d to get the current to a door to unlock it. Nothing else could be added into the game that would push me faster to youtube or google to see a video on how to solve it. For example there is a dungeon in DDO that to spawn a certain Mindflayer you have to solve a tile puzzle. The tiles are not just on the floor they are on all the walls and the ceiling. Even with watching videos how to solve it it was so frustrating that my friends and I would completely ignore it everytime we ran the dungeon.
I would much much rather puzzles such as having to travel to 45 different locations in the world spanning multiple continents recovering pages from a book that took me a month to put together and when completed becomes a a long lost accounting of a certain races history. Where not only have I uncovered more indepth lore I can also turn in into a NPC that will grant me a HUGE faction boost(like from KOS to netural) instead of spending 3 weeks farming red wine bottles to turn in to a drunk NPC to increase my faction. Or have me recover scraps of a treasure map that when completed I can turn it into a NPC that in turns gives me a password that unlocks a new entrance into a city that I can use if I'm KOS to the inhabitants.
I also fully agree with the please no frigging jumping puzzles group. As dorotea stated not all of us have great connection to the internet. I only have a 6meg connection. Every game I play I have max 20-35 FPS and jumping puzzles do nothing, but want me to rage quit.
*Percipiens steps from the shadows and begins to cast Summon Thread Corpse*
disposalist said:I'm thinking in the days of Google puzzles would have to be more physical. I think the idea of splitting the party into different places to do different things - get them out of their group comfort zone for a bit - something dynamic.
This dungeon door only opens if the rogue is in the room beyond a locked door, the wizard is meditating in the library, the cleric has forced that zombie into that corner and the warrior leaps and hits the bell on the other side of that chasm. When they all do that, they teleport into the dungeon. One gets it wrong and they are teleported... somewhere else. The locations could be marked, but not always the same - somewhat dynamic, but not too badly down to timing. Something you could look up, but never exactly the same each time so it needs some care.
*shrug*
This is a good idea, but would want it limited. You wouldn't want it to be so involved that people would be putting their fists through their monitors. I like the concept of phyisical puzzles, though. One game I played what seems like decades ago, you walk into a room and find a place in the floor that triggers the door on the opposite side. When you step off, however, the door begins to close. After surveying your surroundings, you notice a dead body floating in some sort of aqueduct. You walk over, pick the body up and flop it down on the door trigger. Voila~ Other things I liked were environmental interactions. Some things could be partially destroyed, granting or denying you access to special/secret areas (Using an aoe fire spell on a wooden bridge might burn it, dropping anyone on it to their deaths, while that same spell might burn away foliage, exposing a trap/secret door in the ground). Interactable objects on walls or ceilings could use the rogue's rope ability to swing to out of the way areas. Also like the map fragments, treasure hunts, arrange and rearrange, musical notes, books, etc.Love puzzles and there are lots and lots of different kinds.
Since it's been a while, any chance we could hear something at least semi-official regarding any of this? :)