i like in game puzzels, as long as they are not gimmicky. I remember in LOTRO an instance with many riddle doors that was really unique and enjoyable. haven't played it for a while now so memory is hazy apart from it was fun. Puzzle traps that require team work to manoeuver. And recently in DnD online i liked the moving tile puzzles - to turn on or off certain things.
other bits - lore based puzzles that require you learning aspects in game that will evolve into question/anser situations to progress
Narben4 said:i like in game puzzels, as long as they are not gimmicky. I remember in LOTRO an instance with many riddle doors that was really unique and enjoyable. haven't played it for a while now so memory is hazy apart from it was fun. Puzzle traps that require team work to manoeuver. And recently in DnD online i liked the moving tile puzzles - to turn on or off certain things.
other bits - lore based puzzles that require you learning aspects in game that will evolve into question/anser situations to progress
Yeah, I tend to like the more enjoyable or cryptic ones myself, I don't like the gimmicky ones either. The tile puzzles can be pretty cool too and some of the puzzles in Skyrim, ESO and the Witcher 3 are pretty fun :)
To be honest it will depend on the complexity of the puzzle and the scenario.
In ESO puzzles were built into a lot of the dungeons and a handful of the times (Since I got tired of the whole "pick up a quest, not read it, follow until X marks the spot" system) I would never have any idea what the proper combination was - but I would beat it by trial and error. Most puzzles were a 3 token system, each with 3 possibilities. That is only a TOTAL of 27 different possible combinations - so the puzzles were a nuisance at best.
Now, had those puzzles not been able to simply be beaten by trial and error, that would have made them more interesting. I might have actually paid attention to the quest dialogs and clues.
On the flip side - One thing I really did enjoy as a puzzle system was what Rift had done. 1 unique and fairly complicated puzzle in each zone that gave a reward based on your character's level and not the level of the zone. While there will always be the solutions online these at least could not be completed like the simple ESO puzzles. And to be honest when faced with a challenge rather than a farce, I always will try to solve it myself ( Hello pen and paper notebook :D )
- Furor
Furor said:To be honest it will depend on the complexity of the puzzle and the scenario.
In ESO puzzles were built into a lot of the dungeons and a handful of the times (Since I got tired of the whole "pick up a quest, not read it, follow until X marks the spot" system) I would never have any idea what the proper combination was - but I would beat it by trial and error. Most puzzles were a 3 token system, each with 3 possibilities. That is only a TOTAL of 27 different possible combinations - so the puzzles were a nuisance at best.
Now, had those puzzles not been able to simply be beaten by trial and error, that would have made them more interesting. I might have actually paid attention to the quest dialogs and clues.
On the flip side - One thing I really did enjoy as a puzzle system was what Rift had done. 1 unique and fairly complicated puzzle in each zone that gave a reward based on your character's level and not the level of the zone. While there will always be the solutions online these at least could not be completed like the simple ESO puzzles. And to be honest when faced with a challenge rather than a farce, I always will try to solve it myself ( Hello pen and paper notebook :D )
- Furor
Yeah, nice Furor, ESO maybe wasn't the best example as it has been so long since I played, I may be confusing their puzzles with proper ones in another game lol, I did enjoy a few of the Rift puzzles though, I just didn't play the game long enough to do many of them.
If you want to see how much great puzzles can add to an MMO, just look at The Secret World. Overall considered a very mediocre game, at best, with poor combat and character customization- but they still have a solid niche for their great puzzles alone. It's worth trying just to see some of their early Investigation Missions- the first couple I came across had me researching the fictional town's history for clues, as well as the Bible. Another involved translating from Morse code- that would be the only one I couldn't solve myself. Unfortunately, I didn't enjoy the rest of the game, so I never got far enough to see too many of these, but my point is- puzzles in quests can be great! Especially since you're going for more memorable quests, it would be great to see puzzles involved- and would certainly love to come across them in Epic quests. Even more so if it involves knowing the world's lore- such as finding a location based on vague hints about it's history.
On the other hand, I don't think puzzles in dungeons are a good fit at all. Sure, they're fun- once! Playing through Sunken Temple of Qarn for the first time in FFXIV, the few basic puzzles at the end (some of the only ones in the game) were enjoyable, and redeemed what was otherwise the worst dungeon in the game. Well, only the last one was actually decent and required some thought, but it was still good considering how few puzzles there are- although that's getting off topic. And then I played it again. The fun the first time came from figuring out the answer, when you already know it it's just a tedious matter of clicking through the solution- nothing enjoyable there. And that assumes you don't have some party members that know it, and some that don't. Those that do know it have to choose- spoil it for their teammates, so they'll never really get the full experience of solving it; or sit around waiting for however long it takes. Either way, it's bad for someone. Sure, you could randomize it to an extent, but that only works for fairly generic and simple puzzles, if you actually want to make good puzzles, it won't work.
In short, puzzles can be an amazing addition. But keep them out of repeatable and/or group content, it's just a bad fit there. It'll only be fun the first time, and only if everyone's new to it. After that, it's just a chore. But add them to quests, and it'll make them a lot more interesting! Considering those who don't care about them can easily look up the answer anyway, there's no reason not to add them!
I am a fan of all types of puzzles and think they add a fun, interesting aspect to the game. I do think they need to be applied deliberately and in moderation so they don't become an undue content block. Complexity should be based on the location and reward. The bog witch may have a riddle puzzle which can be completed by any solo player with the proper knowledge while an access puzzle for a dungeon area might require two players to stand in a certain location while a third player accesses the key.
Lore based, riddle and/or Q&A puzzles for class/race specific quests are a great way to ensure players brush up on their knowledge while treasure maps and jumping puzzles encourage exploration. Access/trap puzzles come in all kinds of configurations and levels of challenge: Object puzzles that require players to set them in a particular order to gain access to hidden rooms, floor tiles that must be navigated in the correct sequence to avoid tripping alarms, barriers that require a certain skill/element to by-pass.
As mentioned above, online solutions will obviously be made available, but this is just another way of fostering community communication and teamwork.
Yes please! Plenty of puzzles and mysteries. If possible I like Mysetery style quests the best that tell a story while you look for clues to figure out a puzzle. Something like finding the secret of opening a magical entrance to a pyramid. Maybe there is a boss, maybe you have to search for clues, maybe you need some type of research skill, maybe you have to question experts/witnesses, etc.
Id honestly be good with most any type of puzzles except riddles and math problems.
Eldryth said:If you want to see how much great puzzles can add to an MMO, just look at The Secret World. Overall considered a very mediocre game, at best, with poor combat and character customization- but they still have a solid niche for their great puzzles alone. It's worth trying just to see some of their early Investigation Missions- the first couple I came across had me researching the fictional town's history for clues, as well as the Bible. Another involved translating from Morse code- that would be the only one I couldn't solve myself. Unfortunately, I didn't enjoy the rest of the game, so I never got far enough to see too many of these, but my point is- puzzles in quests can be great! Especially since you're going for more memorable quests, it would be great to see puzzles involved- and would certainly love to come across them in Epic quests. Even more so if it involves knowing the world's lore- such as finding a location based on vague hints about it's history.
On the other hand, I don't think puzzles in dungeons are a good fit at all. Sure, they're fun- once! Playing through Sunken Temple of Qarn for the first time in FFXIV, the few basic puzzles at the end (some of the only ones in the game) were enjoyable, and redeemed what was otherwise the worst dungeon in the game. Well, only the last one was actually decent and required some thought, but it was still good considering how few puzzles there are- although that's getting off topic. And then I played it again. The fun the first time came from figuring out the answer, when you already know it it's just a tedious matter of clicking through the solution- nothing enjoyable there. And that assumes you don't have some party members that know it, and some that don't. Those that do know it have to choose- spoil it for their teammates, so they'll never really get the full experience of solving it; or sit around waiting for however long it takes. Either way, it's bad for someone. Sure, you could randomize it to an extent, but that only works for fairly generic and simple puzzles, if you actually want to make good puzzles, it won't work.
In short, puzzles can be an amazing addition. But keep them out of repeatable and/or group content, it's just a bad fit there. It'll only be fun the first time, and only if everyone's new to it. After that, it's just a chore. But add them to quests, and it'll make them a lot more interesting! Considering those who don't care about them can easily look up the answer anyway, there's no reason not to add them!
The Secret World did have some pretty cool puzzles and they even encouraged you to google, which was quite a fresh take on an old system, I didn;t play much of FFXIV so I haven't experienced their puzzles, but they sound pretty cool.
You're right, puzzles are not for everyone and I don;t think they should block content or force everyone to do them unless they are in special circumstances that require it.
Azotate said:I am a fan of all types of puzzles and think they add a fun, interesting aspect to the game. I do think they need to be applied deliberately and in moderation so they don't become an undue content block. Complexity should be based on the location and reward. The bog witch may have a riddle puzzle which can be completed by any solo player with the proper knowledge while an access puzzle for a dungeon area might require two players to stand in a certain location while a third player accesses the key.
Lore based, riddle and/or Q&A puzzles for class/race specific quests are a great way to ensure players brush up on their knowledge while treasure maps and jumping puzzles encourage exploration. Access/trap puzzles come in all kinds of configurations and levels of challenge: Object puzzles that require players to set them in a particular order to gain access to hidden rooms, floor tiles that must be navigated in the correct sequence to avoid tripping alarms, barriers that require a certain skill/element to by-pass.
As mentioned above, online solutions will obviously be made available, but this is just another way of fostering community communication and teamwork.
Yeah nice, and you're right, but everyone has to experience them together for the first time, then after that, it will come down to the player and whether they want to blow past the content by searching online or have some willpower and a desire to complete the content how it was intended, that decision is on the player though and not something we can control ;)
Amsai said:Yes please! Plenty of puzzles and mysteries. If possible I like Mysetery style quests the best that tell a story while you look for clues to figure out a puzzle. Something like finding the secret of opening a magical entrance to a pyramid. Maybe there is a boss, maybe you have to search for clues, maybe you need some type of research skill, maybe you have to question experts/witnesses, etc.
Id honestly be good with most any type of puzzles except riddles and math problems.
Haha, nice, good to see so much puzzle love going around! :)
Kilsin said:Eldryth said:If you want to see how much great puzzles can add to an MMO, just look at The Secret World. Overall considered a very mediocre game, at best, with poor combat and character customization- but they still have a solid niche for their great puzzles alone. It's worth trying just to see some of their early Investigation Missions- the first couple I came across had me researching the fictional town's history for clues, as well as the Bible. Another involved translating from Morse code- that would be the only one I couldn't solve myself. Unfortunately, I didn't enjoy the rest of the game, so I never got far enough to see too many of these, but my point is- puzzles in quests can be great! Especially since you're going for more memorable quests, it would be great to see puzzles involved- and would certainly love to come across them in Epic quests. Even more so if it involves knowing the world's lore- such as finding a location based on vague hints about it's history.
On the other hand, I don't think puzzles in dungeons are a good fit at all. Sure, they're fun- once! Playing through Sunken Temple of Qarn for the first time in FFXIV, the few basic puzzles at the end (some of the only ones in the game) were enjoyable, and redeemed what was otherwise the worst dungeon in the game. Well, only the last one was actually decent and required some thought, but it was still good considering how few puzzles there are- although that's getting off topic. And then I played it again. The fun the first time came from figuring out the answer, when you already know it it's just a tedious matter of clicking through the solution- nothing enjoyable there. And that assumes you don't have some party members that know it, and some that don't. Those that do know it have to choose- spoil it for their teammates, so they'll never really get the full experience of solving it; or sit around waiting for however long it takes. Either way, it's bad for someone. Sure, you could randomize it to an extent, but that only works for fairly generic and simple puzzles, if you actually want to make good puzzles, it won't work.
In short, puzzles can be an amazing addition. But keep them out of repeatable and/or group content, it's just a bad fit there. It'll only be fun the first time, and only if everyone's new to it. After that, it's just a chore. But add them to quests, and it'll make them a lot more interesting! Considering those who don't care about them can easily look up the answer anyway, there's no reason not to add them!
The Secret World did have some pretty cool puzzles and they even encouraged you to google, which was quite a fresh take on an old system, I didn;t play much of FFXIV so I haven't experienced their puzzles, but they sound pretty cool.
You're right, puzzles are not for everyone and I don;t think they should block content or force everyone to do them unless they are in special circumstances that require it.
Actually didn't mean to imply FFXIV was good for puzzles. It's actually just one dungeon with very basic puzzles- you pick up four picture tiles, then get hints on which one to use to open a side door. At the end you can open a hidden room with the right two tiles, but even that's very basic.
There's also one quest that involves a lot of puzzles based on the game's lore. That was one of the best quests in the game, but those two examples are pretty much all it has to offer for puzzles.
Should puzzles be part of the "normal" play, that is, should you have to do them in order to enter a dungeon for example? Or should they be optional (as in Rift), purely for entertainment?
I would like to see them as part of normal play too, but they should be one-time affairs (you shouldn't have to do a puzzle each time you want to enter a dungeon). As part of quests, absolutely! And I'd like to see multi-player puzzles, but please be careful not to make them too twitchy.
And I'd love to see jumping puzzles, similar to GW2!
Eldryth said:Kilsin said:Eldryth said:If you want to see how much great puzzles can add to an MMO, just look at The Secret World. Overall considered a very mediocre game, at best, with poor combat and character customization- but they still have a solid niche for their great puzzles alone. It's worth trying just to see some of their early Investigation Missions- the first couple I came across had me researching the fictional town's history for clues, as well as the Bible. Another involved translating from Morse code- that would be the only one I couldn't solve myself. Unfortunately, I didn't enjoy the rest of the game, so I never got far enough to see too many of these, but my point is- puzzles in quests can be great! Especially since you're going for more memorable quests, it would be great to see puzzles involved- and would certainly love to come across them in Epic quests. Even more so if it involves knowing the world's lore- such as finding a location based on vague hints about it's history.
On the other hand, I don't think puzzles in dungeons are a good fit at all. Sure, they're fun- once! Playing through Sunken Temple of Qarn for the first time in FFXIV, the few basic puzzles at the end (some of the only ones in the game) were enjoyable, and redeemed what was otherwise the worst dungeon in the game. Well, only the last one was actually decent and required some thought, but it was still good considering how few puzzles there are- although that's getting off topic. And then I played it again. The fun the first time came from figuring out the answer, when you already know it it's just a tedious matter of clicking through the solution- nothing enjoyable there. And that assumes you don't have some party members that know it, and some that don't. Those that do know it have to choose- spoil it for their teammates, so they'll never really get the full experience of solving it; or sit around waiting for however long it takes. Either way, it's bad for someone. Sure, you could randomize it to an extent, but that only works for fairly generic and simple puzzles, if you actually want to make good puzzles, it won't work.
In short, puzzles can be an amazing addition. But keep them out of repeatable and/or group content, it's just a bad fit there. It'll only be fun the first time, and only if everyone's new to it. After that, it's just a chore. But add them to quests, and it'll make them a lot more interesting! Considering those who don't care about them can easily look up the answer anyway, there's no reason not to add them!
The Secret World did have some pretty cool puzzles and they even encouraged you to google, which was quite a fresh take on an old system, I didn;t play much of FFXIV so I haven't experienced their puzzles, but they sound pretty cool.
You're right, puzzles are not for everyone and I don;t think they should block content or force everyone to do them unless they are in special circumstances that require it.Actually didn't mean to imply FFXIV was good for puzzles. It's actually just one dungeon with very basic puzzles- you pick up four picture tiles, then get hints on which one to use to open a side door. At the end you can open a hidden room with the right two tiles, but even that's very basic.
There's also one quest that involves a lot of puzzles based on the game's lore. That was one of the best quests in the game, but those two examples are pretty much all it has to offer for puzzles.
Ahh ok gotcha! :)
Sarim said:Should puzzles be part of the "normal" play, that is, should you have to do them in order to enter a dungeon for example? Or should they be optional (as in Rift), purely for entertainment?
I would like to see them as part of normal play too, but they should be one-time affairs (you shouldn't have to do a puzzle each time you want to enter a dungeon). As part of quests, absolutely! And I'd like to see multi-player puzzles, but please be careful not to make them too twitchy.
And I'd love to see jumping puzzles, similar to GW2!
Making them part of normal play can be tricky, since people who either don't like them or have trouble with them for various reasons (medical conditions etc.) and can be blocked from doing content, so having the more random and fun ones that are not a requirement or content blocker can be fun, the jumping ones I like too, I did a few of those in GW2 when I was bored and I didn;t mind them every now and then.
I would not say I dislike puzzles but I have to be in the right mood for them. Sometimes I want to just "turn off" a bit and smash things while I am playing and a puzzle can just be frusturating at times. I think in general they should be used somewhat sparingly not every dungeon needs a puzzle nor does every quest but a few meaningful ones here and there add color and variety to the game.
I would say the one thing I DON'T want with puzzles is for doing them to feel like the only reason they are there, is for me to waste time doing them. I would much rather have a "puzzle mentality" instituted into some (but not all) content.
I know that is a very short and overtly general statement - but I'm sort of having trouble wrapping my mind around how I would describe my thoughts on this one.
Puzzles are alright in moderation , but not if it means getting through content . Eso imho had far to many and seemed like every dungeon had them .
As Kilsin has mentioned not everyone can or wants to do them . Really a shame far rather Diplo then puzzles /Hint Hint Hint
Expand the thought a bit...make an entire zone a puzzle. Plane of Mischief anyone? That zone was one big mind%*@#. I loved going there (back when the entrance was a tiny dollhouse sitting in North Temple of Veeshan behind a dozen huge dragons) because it was so far different than anywhere else.
The only other puzzle I ever liked (up until it became so memorized you could run it in your sleep) was the maze area in Skyshrine. A series of hallways, all looking the same, filled with wandering Wurms, that had invisible wall teleporters. You had to run the correct route to get to the top of Skyshrine where the quest givers were located.
I really liked spawn puzzles, like Cyclops in South Ro or Pyzjn in Qeynos Hills or some of the boss mobs in Ssra Temple where you had to have certain NPCs dead (sometimes only at a certain time of day) for there to be a chance the one thing you wanted to spawn would spawn.
Absolutely! Love seeing in-game puzzles. Riddles from quest givers or hidden within scraps of lore are cool. Mazes can be frustratingly fun. Not a huge fan of Simon style puzzles but not awful. The sound puzzle zaktaros mentioned sounds cool. Jumping puzzles can be fun too, almost like a vertical maze. I still remember getting those stupid Halloween shoes in gw2. ugh. But how cool was it when you finally made it?
cram9030 said:I would not say I dislike puzzles but I have to be in the right mood for them. Sometimes I want to just "turn off" a bit and smash things while I am playing and a puzzle can just be frusturating at times. I think in general they should be used somewhat sparingly not every dungeon needs a puzzle nor does every quest but a few meaningful ones here and there add color and variety to the game.
Oh absolutely man, I wouldn't want puzzles jumping out at me left and right, they -in my opinion- should be used sparingly and as a surprise or nice break from everyday content unless they are part of a dungeon or challenge, then they can be used a bit more frequently in that dungeon or for those mobs/bosses ;)
Wandidar said:I would say the one thing I DON'T want with puzzles is for doing them to feel like the only reason they are there, is for me to waste time doing them. I would much rather have a "puzzle mentality" instituted into some (but not all) content.
I know that is a very short and overtly general statement - but I'm sort of having trouble wrapping my mind around how I would describe my thoughts on this one.
As per my other replies here and on FB, I wouldn't ever want puzzles to be in your face all the time or content blockers unless they are part of a dungeon/special content that requires it and they have to be done properly ;)