oneADseven said:Thankfully cartography has never been ruled out. My understanding is that it could be considered in the future, but it depends on funding and feedback during testing. I don't really have a dog in this fight but I am definitely intrigued by a fleshed out cartography system. It would take a lot of work to make it feel right but I can appreciate the idea that it could be beneficial. We'll see ... eventually.
I really hope this is the case. A cartograpy skill would be amazing, and a great way to create more interactions with players.
I'm all for no in-game default maps, even with the "fog-of-war" nonsense. Too many times, I'd basically just leave the map open while I ran through a zone and follow my own silly dot instead of actually, y'know, looking at the scenery.
I'd like to see a cartography skill in game. Example; zone into Halnir Pass and open your cartography window. The header would say "Halnir Pass" There would be x-y co-ordinates along the bottom and side and thats it. The map would be like paint shop where if you see theres a river, you could choose the brush function and draw you in a river. You'd place your first marker right at the zone line and name it "zone-in from such-and-such zone" then say you explore a little bit and come across a bandit camp. Open map, place marker here, bandit camp 1. once you've thoroughly explored the zone, you have your own player made map that you can be proud of. As you skill up cartography, new icons become available. Instead of a little dot marking the bandit camp, now you get a little tent icon you can replace it with. skill-up again, now you can mark Highpass Hold with a fort icon, skill-up again and you get the ability to brush in a forest, desert, or mountain range. By the time you've maxed the skill, you have the ability to create beautiful, fully fleshed out maps. Maybe if you died, you could see where your corpse/tombstone is on the map.
Opening up to a sense of realism is usually a more immersive experience when playing RPGs in general. Providing players with a map of the entirety of Terminus from the get go isn't necessarily realistic, but not having any maps in the game at all isn't either. Consider the fact that certain races who aren't paticuarly friendly or at open war with other factions and races, may not have taken the time to map out the entirety of the world, or even have been able to know for sure what lies on the other side of a mountain for example, because danger lurks within and without. That being said, I would not be opposed to seeing intricate maps of cities and lower level zones that are simple to traverse and aren't paticuarly dangerous to the experienced adventurer. I'd expect cities especially to have been mapped out in some fashion by all the races, for neutral and friendly travellers to utilise.
I'd like to see players aquiring maps in various different ways in your travels and with varying degrees of detail. An npc or even another player you meet could be searching for something they've lost, or treasure/artifacts needed to cull certain threats that directly effect you or everyone in the game. The npc could offer up to you a rough sketched map from point A to B to C, or as a quest objective, the npc could tell you loose directions and given this information, now you have to find the means of creating a map for your group or another npc that is aiding you in your quest.
A cartography proffesion seems like it could make the game either suffer from being limiting, or become too easy for the average player to just find out where they need to go to progress in the world. Limiting because of the dynamic nature of the world the developers have expressed Pantheon to have and certain places may change over time, become unpassable etc. and too easy because it would not allow the community to be truly creative and map out terminus themselves, you could just take a screenshot of the high level Cartograhy game maps and display them online for players to have open in a tab. I think at some point everyone expects a fan site which has the whole of Terminus mapped out on some level but this would be a community effort most likely and not a forced choice from the moment you enter the game. Just my thoughts...
It's an important topic and interesting to see what people have to say. :)
opalrebel said:Consider the fact that certain races who aren't paticuarly friendly or at open war with other factions and races, may not have taken the time to map out the entirety of the world, or even have been able to know for sure what lies on the other side of a mountain for example, because danger lurks within and without.
Exactly, so go freaking explore over there. F maps.
As a semi-intelligent adventurer my character will have gone to the shops and bought some parchment and ink to draw out where se/she had been. After all, it's a dangerous world out there, what idiot would go out blind all the time? If others want to be daft then well they're all adults and can make their own decisions but me? I want some parchment and ink.
I'd say maps that can be drawn by players using a trade skill. It'd be funny if players could make incorrect maps but not necessary.
Player made maps would improve immersion and inter player cooperation without creating a need to open up a second window to get a map that way. (though naturally players who wanted to anyways could definately just get maps online)
Also, having no arrow on the map to show your location is good because it forces you to learn an area at least somewhat before you can really be sure of where you are. This can improve immersion even further as you realise just how big the game world really is.
I actually disagree with /loc commands because there is no way the average character without some extremely specialised skills could just know their coordinates. It might be ok for guards and similar npcs to know /locs, though, and for maps to have coordinate guides drawn in.
BeaverBiscuit said:I'd say maps that can be drawn by players using a trade skill. It'd be funny if players could make incorrect maps but not necessary.
Player made maps would improve immersion and inter player cooperation without creating a need to open up a second window to get a map that way. (though naturally players who wanted to anyways could definately just get maps online)
Actually I rather like this idea. Draw your own maps and share with others. I don't think it's immersion breaking in the slightest to have your own generated map. Quite the reverse in fact - imagine a world where deep knowledge of magic has been written and preserved for centuries however noone has yet had the idea to go map a dangerous landscape for themselves? Really?
A few months from launch it'll be moot anyway. Maps will appear on wikis etc. and those who want to use them will be alt+tabbing all the time to see them. If you don't want to ever see a map then just never press m (or re-map it); and don't alt+tab. Now everyone's happy.
the only way I could support a player created map would be if it was stored server side.
After I have attained a certain cartography skill, I can actually make a map. Only when I have attained a certain skill is the map worthy of selling it (i.e. you can only sell maps at a certain level)
But, if I sell it, I have to make a new one, there is no duplicate function, a map is an item. Hence the need for it to be on the server so you can't just download it and put it on your client (like EQ).
This way, those who have the patience to make beautiful maps, could sell them for plenty plat/gold just like any other tradeskill.
At no time should there be arrows on the map to indicate where you are.
Once the player who bought the map gets familiar with the zone, s/he could sell it to some other player or keep it in their map portfolio (much like a spellbook)
just some thoughts
redgiant said:No maps in-game at all. None. Just like EQ originally. Waste of VR development resources.
- save VR a whole lot of needless work, they have enough to do with the rest of the game systems
- nomaps in 2018 == no maps in 1999, nothing germaine to this has changed - external maps will still be created now as they were back then
- in RL, you only use a map when you are in an unknown place ... which is precisely when you will definitely NOT get one in-game
- be honest, the only reason for an in-game (vs. external) map is to show where you are on it, which is definitely NOT something I want ... if you say you just want a static reference map, go to EQ Atlas 2018, problem solved
- if you want to doodle on your own map, again ... go to EQ Atlas 2018 or one of the other common sites I'm sure will spring up, download a phone app, whatever ... just don't bother the game with the overhead of it
- VR will rue adding any map since it will just make the world seem smaller and trivial to navigate, increasing the amount of sheer content they have to invent to keep up with this shrinking perception
- if your brain can't tell you which way to go, then guess what? you get lost and find your way by asking others, learning, and not repeating it ... just like in RL
- forget other MMOs, this isn't them ... it is supposed to be dangerous, challenging, social and vast like EQ used to be
PAY ATTENTION TO THE WORLD IN FRONT OF YOUR EYES, it isn't hard and I still remember every EQ zone I was ever in ... because I had to know the world I was in
Hmm you just didnt know they existed. Maps did get made pretty much right away. Like people stated the /LOC made maps possible pretty early on. If they didnt a hand stetch was being done up. I think we are past EQ of the old, the younger gen do things differently though.
Ashvaild said: Nobody has mentioned the verticality/climbing element that is present in pantheon. How are you going to represent that on a 2d map? It's a bit different than stairs in a dungeon with the jumps/holds they have shown so far. For what it's worth, I'd prefer no maps.
3d maps dont need to be done, 2d maps can still show heights and changes plus you may not be aware that people made up many levels of those maps.
Crazzie said:redgiant said:No maps in-game at all. None. Just like EQ originally. Waste of VR development resources.
- save VR a whole lot of needless work, they have enough to do with the rest of the game systems
- nomaps in 2018 == no maps in 1999, nothing germaine to this has changed - external maps will still be created now as they were back then
- in RL, you only use a map when you are in an unknown place ... which is precisely when you will definitely NOT get one in-game
- be honest, the only reason for an in-game (vs. external) map is to show where you are on it, which is definitely NOT something I want ... if you say you just want a static reference map, go to EQ Atlas 2018, problem solved
- if you want to doodle on your own map, again ... go to EQ Atlas 2018 or one of the other common sites I'm sure will spring up, download a phone app, whatever ... just don't bother the game with the overhead of it
- VR will rue adding any map since it will just make the world seem smaller and trivial to navigate, increasing the amount of sheer content they have to invent to keep up with this shrinking perception
- if your brain can't tell you which way to go, then guess what? you get lost and find your way by asking others, learning, and not repeating it ... just like in RL
- forget other MMOs, this isn't them ... it is supposed to be dangerous, challenging, social and vast like EQ used to be
PAY ATTENTION TO THE WORLD IN FRONT OF YOUR EYES, it isn't hard and I still remember every EQ zone I was ever in ... because I had to know the world I was in
Hmm you just didnt know they existed. Maps did get made pretty much right away. Like people stated the /LOC made maps possible pretty early on. If they didnt a hand stetch was being done up. I think we are past EQ of the old, the younger gen do things differently though.
*chuckle*
"if your brain can't tell you which way to go, then guess what? you get lost and find your way by asking others, learning, and not repeating it ... just like in RL" - In RL, as I seem to recall, maps were drawn by every single sailor and explorer who ever lived since the creation of maps. RL nowadays we have satnav.
"Waste of VR development resources" - It's not a lot of resources in the grand scheme of things, really.
"if you want to doodle on your own map, again ... go to EQ Atlas 2018" - so what's the point in excluding it just for the sake of the ones who want this game to be an EQ reboot?
"forget other MMOs, this is EQ with nicer graphics" - FTFY
Idrial said:Crazzie said:redgiant said:No maps in-game at all. None. Just like EQ originally. Waste of VR development resources.
- save VR a whole lot of needless work, they have enough to do with the rest of the game systems
- nomaps in 2018 == no maps in 1999, nothing germaine to this has changed - external maps will still be created now as they were back then
- in RL, you only use a map when you are in an unknown place ... which is precisely when you will definitely NOT get one in-game
- be honest, the only reason for an in-game (vs. external) map is to show where you are on it, which is definitely NOT something I want ... if you say you just want a static reference map, go to EQ Atlas 2018, problem solved
- if you want to doodle on your own map, again ... go to EQ Atlas 2018 or one of the other common sites I'm sure will spring up, download a phone app, whatever ... just don't bother the game with the overhead of it
- VR will rue adding any map since it will just make the world seem smaller and trivial to navigate, increasing the amount of sheer content they have to invent to keep up with this shrinking perception
- if your brain can't tell you which way to go, then guess what? you get lost and find your way by asking others, learning, and not repeating it ... just like in RL
- forget other MMOs, this isn't them ... it is supposed to be dangerous, challenging, social and vast like EQ used to be
PAY ATTENTION TO THE WORLD IN FRONT OF YOUR EYES, it isn't hard and I still remember every EQ zone I was ever in ... because I had to know the world I was in
Hmm you just didnt know they existed. Maps did get made pretty much right away. Like people stated the /LOC made maps possible pretty early on. If they didnt a hand stetch was being done up. I think we are past EQ of the old, the younger gen do things differently though.
*chuckle*
"if your brain can't tell you which way to go, then guess what? you get lost and find your way by asking others, learning, and not repeating it ... just like in RL" - In RL, as I seem to recall, maps were drawn by every single sailor and explorer who ever lived since the creation of maps. RL nowadays we have satnav. How many of us would even go hiking without a map? How many of us would go exploring in the African bush for a week and not either take a map or at the very least a pen and paper to chart where we are so we can get home?
"Waste of VR development resources" - It's not a lot of resources in the grand scheme of things, really.
"if you want to doodle on your own map, again ... go to EQ Atlas 2018" - so what's the point in excluding it just for the sake of the ones who want this game to be an EQ reboot?
"forget other MMOs, this is EQ with nicer graphics" - FTFY
maps will be made, the only issue is how easy they are to access and how accurate they are, so /meh. my vote would be fog of war. it is rather silly if we are being honest, but it will be more palatable to the 'i want an annoying game' crowd. i am reminded of the languages in star wars galaxies. great idea, but you end up spending 5 minutes after character creation at the correlia star port learning/teaching languages and then forget the feature ever existed.
fog of war maps: a pain for about 15 minutes then you have the map so pfft. mind you were i a powerful adventurer (read: main) with an apprentice (read: alt) the first thing i give that apprentice is the best weapon/focus he can wield. the second thing is a copy of all my maps. any guild would have a comprehensive set of copies of maps available to all members. so having each toon have to remap everything is actually very unrealistic.
no in game maps: there will be maps, this just means you make them at home. some people do not have all the abilities of their toons. to force them to irl make a map when perhaps they have a physical condition is as absurd as to force them to hand make a suit of platemail irl before their blacksmith character can make one in game. perhaps your wizard shouldnt be able to cast spells until you can irl?
not including maps does not mean no maps. it means players will spend time dealing with maps instead of playing. if VR doesn't include maps, there will be 3rd party maps. these may be buggy. these may become buggy as updates come into play. these may hide malware. malware can be mixed in with map downloads in a way that it is hard to differentiate. the maps will be there. they will be accurate. they will be detailed - even moreso than what would exist if the maps were included in game.
Why are we still talking about maps? The decision has been made. NO maps.
Zeem said:Why are we still talking about maps? The decision has been made. NO maps.
because, it is here
Crazzie said:I understand levels can be shown....what I'm saying is how do you show on a map exactly where the very specific handholds are on a cliff that allow you to get to that next levelAshvaild said: Nobody has mentioned the verticality/climbing element that is present in pantheon. How are you going to represent that on a 2d map? It's a bit different than stairs in a dungeon with the jumps/holds they have shown so far. For what it's worth, I'd prefer no maps.
3d maps dont need to be done, 2d maps can still show heights and changes plus you may not be aware that people made up many levels of those maps.
I'm very happy to hear their will be no maps.
It's very exciting not knowing exactly where your going or what is up ahead.
In other mmo's i found myself looking at mini maps while running place to place which i felt prevented myself and other players from going exploring.
Cartography has been discussed for years within the Pantheon community. I would venture to say that the majority of players don't want to see the traditional "Press M and a fully drawn out map opens up" kind of experience. Furthermore, GPS indicators are basically viewed as the plague. When you combine both of them, a lot of players end up opening their maps and focusing on a little dot that represents their character in the world while they travel or adventure, and will do this for extended periods of time. Doing so takes away from the beauty, luster, and sense of exploration from the world itself and causes serious issues with the "It's about the journey, not the destination" argument. I think a fog of war mechanic could be really beneficial for both map-makers, and map-users. If a cartographer wants to create a map, they must be physically present in the area they are trying to record. For players that purchase maps, they would start off as a basic shell -- only after exploring an area will the fog of war dissipate and finer details start to emerge on the parchment.
There is plenty of merit in the idea that having the ability to create player-made maps would be good for immersion, social interaction, commerce, and achievement. Cartography would be a great crafting profession for explorer types as it would allow them to enjoy a sense of progression that is tied into their preferred playstyle. After doing some research on the Bartle Study ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartle_taxonomy_of_player_types ) it would seem to me that cartography could be enjoyable for most player types. Explorers seem like the natural fit, but as an Achiever, I must admit that a feature like this would be really appealing to me as well. Socializers could also benefit from a variety of cartography-induced scenarios. Whether it's assisting another player who is making a map or trying to communicate an interpretation of a map in their possession to friends, there are ample opportunities for social interaction. Due to the nature of how player-made maps could work, bartering would also be commonplace.
I would like to propose a rough outline of how this feature could work. Feel free to respond with any observations/comments/feedback.
Map Types:
Map Resources:
That's about it for now. I'm not trying to propose a fully fleshed out cartography system, just wanted to get a conversation going. I know some folks will probably cringe as soon as they see the emblem explanations and that's okay. I think it's important to realize that all of these things will exist on 3'rd party websites anyway. If cartography is going to be a meaningful profession, crafters should be able to compete with the world wide web. I am particularly interested in ideas that could offer them any sort of value that could earn the business of folks who would otherwise be a window tabber as I feel this is the biggest obstacle in making a profession like this work. Maybe cartographers could trade their emblems to other players (they become no-trade at that point), allowing consumers to mark down their own POI's or references as they see fit. I'm sure there are plenty of potential conflicts that can be found in this post ... feel free to critique, but kudos to anybody who contributes any feedback or ideas that could improve or expand upon what is here.
I would like the game to provide at least a basic map that is filled in as I explore and I can annotate myself.
It is obvious that Wikis will arrive and maps will be made, but these are so often filled with spoilers and errors, then it would be awesome to have something in-game and in-keeping with lore and style.
It would be interesting to develop a mapping skill that would give more detail automatically or maybe just tie it in with Pantheon's existing concept of perception.
You could also 'buy' maps that add stuff (treasure locations, animal dens, whatever) to your in-game map.
It doesn't have to be too automated and convenient, but I would prefer not to have to rely on my real-life cartography skills any more than I have to rely on my real-life sword and magic skills ;)
A 3D game environment, no matter how sophisticated, simply does not give you the sense of 'being there' that is needed for a human being's innate sense of direction to cope. I don't find it fun getting lost in the same place in a game for the tenth time. Doesn't feel heroic or fun or even realistic.
I don't even have anything against a basic GPS-style "you are here" indicator. Everything in game is an analogy to reality. If my Perception is good and my Mapping skills good, then I should have heroic skills at knowing where I am on the map I made myself when I was in this location before.
Zeem said:Why are we still talking about maps? The decision has been made. NO maps.
Where did they say that exactly? I thought from the title of the thread this was an open discussion lol. Also, think about the implications of the post just above this one which disposalist explained very well. Do you really want to get lost over and over on the same parts you've done a million times because you can't pinpoint a specific area of trees or room in a dungeon that looks the same as the rest of the surroundings? I honestly think a compromise is the best way to keep everyone happy. No WoW handholding maps and certainly no objective points. Just simple GPS with a compass and city maps and a world map would do. Why would an adventurer not carry a map? That's just reckless ...
Reconnoitering is an actual skill used by adventurers
Cartography is a profession... not the same thing
Creating maps of all the surrounding areas is the very first thing any of these people would have done once they found shelter... Hundreds of years ago
Locating one's position on a map could be a learned skill, though with not a ton of depth
As far as learning how to draw a map and having the game provide tools for us to do so at varying levels of skill and accuracy... Is VR making a game or trying to reproduce MS Paint here?
It strikes me that something along the lines of a "reverse fog of war" might look really cool, where only your immediate area gets "drawn" on your map to the places you have been, maybe even becoming more detailed the longer you stay in an area, but then I remember that there is no way an adventurer would have left home without a map that was prepared by actual Cartographers and that this is all about as dumb as forcing new players to make all their own armor and weapons
At its most complicated, everyone should be able to easily get maps of their starting area, and probably find someone that could provide them with maps for aother regions as well
It seems the only realism you could add to that would be learning to locate your own position on your map using what you can see (reconnoitering,) but that needn't be super complicated
All this talk of no maps at all seems less like protection of immersion and more like some folks think they can make money off other players, as no maps at all would be the thing that breaks immersion
As far as using dev resources, Unity has tons of map plug-ins and I'm sure the devs we have are pretty familiar with them... Seems like the real waste of resources would be reading through all this
opalrebel said:Zeem said:Why are we still talking about maps? The decision has been made. NO maps.
Where did they say that exactly? I thought from the title of the thread this was an open discussion lol. Also, think about the implications of the post just above this one which disposalist explained very well. Do you really want to get lost over and over on the same parts you've done a million times because you can't pinpoint a specific area of trees or room in a dungeon that looks the same as the rest of the surroundings? I honestly think a compromise is the best way to keep everyone happy. No WoW handholding maps and certainly no objective points. Just simple GPS with a compass and city maps and a world map would do. Why would an adventurer not carry a map. That's just reckless ...
As of July, it was stated that maps are not planned at this very moment, but that could change depending on feedback during testing. It was also said that cartography could be considered in the future. There has not been a universal statement that said maps will never exist in Pantheon that I am aware of. There have been universal statements that said tools like dungeon finder will not be used in Pantheon. From the sound of it, feedback during testing is what will truly matter. The more feedback there is in favor of having maps, the more likely they are to be considered ... but I doubt they will be 100% ruled in or out any time soon. A really fleshed out cartography feature would probably be a big drain on resources, so the likelihood of it coming into fruition is probably tied into available funding and internal timelines. I can certainly live with or without it but either way I see merit in constructive conversations that discuss how it could be implemented if we eventually get to the point where it's actually considered. It's great to see an active community that cares enough to post about things like this. Still, it's not safe to say that maps are absolutely needed until people have a chance to test the game and see how it feels.
Preechr said:Reconnoitering is an actual skill used by adventurers
Cartography is a profession... not the same thing
Creating maps of all the surrounding areas is the very first thing any of these people would have done once they found shelter... Hundreds of years ago
Locating one's position on a map could be a learned skill, though with not a ton of depth
As far as learning how to draw a map and having the game provide tools for us to do so at varying levels of skill and accuracy... Is VR making a game or trying to reproduce MS Paint here?
It strikes me that something along the lines of a "reverse fog of war" might look really cool, where only your immediate area gets "drawn" on your map to the places you have been, maybe even becoming more detailed the longer you stay in an area, but then I remember that there is no way an adventurer would have left home without a map that was prepared by actual Cartographers and that this is all about as dumb as forcing new players to make all their own armor and weapons
At its most complicated, everyone should be able to easily get maps of their starting area, and probably find someone that could provide them with maps for aother regions as well
It seems the only realism you could add to that would be learning to locate your own position on your map using what you can see (reconnoitering,) but that needn't be super complicated
All this talk of no maps at all seems less like protection of immersion and more like some folks think they can make money off other players, as no maps at all would be the thing that breaks immersion
As far as using dev resources, Unity has tons of map plug-ins and I'm sure the devs we have are pretty familiar with them... Seems like the real waste of resources would be reading through all this
Cartography is map making. Reconoitering is successful land navigation. All explorers had a combination of both, of varying skills in the past.