Honestly I'll have fun regardless of map availability - I love having no map in Dark Souls, but I'm also a big fan of how Eschalon did it. However IF we will have maps I'll hope we will be able to edit them (put markers and memos on them). But if I had to choose then I would create blank scroll for every zone and allow players to draw maps for themselves OR some kind of cartography skill that depending on various factors would create more or less detailed maps.
Hegenox said:Honestly I'll have fun regardless of map availability - I love having no map in Dark Souls, but I'm also a big fan of how Eschalon did it. However IF we will have maps I'll hope we will be able to edit them (put markers and memos on them). But if I had to choose then I would create blank scroll for every zone and allow players to draw maps for themselves OR some kind of cartography skill that depending on various factors would create more or less detailed maps.
I handle this, with or without a map, by keeping track of /loc coordinates in OneNote. I have a WhiteBoard on my office wall for things I want to see in the "immediate future". While /loc coordinates aren't as "efficient" as having a drawn map with POIs (points of interest) pinned on it, I've found that it is a good substitute for not having a map.
Personally, I prefer maps outside of the game. EQAtlas anyone? That said, if we're going to have maps in-game, I'd like to see it be personal maps only with fairly low detail tied to a cartography skill.
Kalok said:Personally, I prefer maps outside of the game. EQAtlas anyone? That said, if we're going to have maps in-game, I'd like to see it be personal maps only with fairly low detail tied to a cartography skill.
I loved looking at my paper maps with nothing more than the light of the computer screen to see them. Especially playing late night. Also, Ive always thought rogues should have a cartography system in their ui, since they are generally the deep scouts. Ive seen others here who suggest as much of rangers.... maybe itll be so?
Alyonyah said:Kalok said:Personally, I prefer maps outside of the game. EQAtlas anyone? That said, if we're going to have maps in-game, I'd like to see it be personal maps only with fairly low detail tied to a cartography skill.
I loved looking at my paper maps with nothing more than the light of the computer screen to see them. Especially playing late night. Also, Ive always thought rogues should have a cartography system in their ui, since they are generally the deep scouts. Ive seen others here who suggest as much of rangers.... maybe itll be so?
How about depending on class different things would be drawn/shown on the map? So there would be very basic CORE layout available to everyone, but on top of it wizard would see secret magical entrances and something like mana wells, warrior would be able to see breakable walls/rocks, druid - trees/plant nodes, rogue - secret (material) passages and climable walls, ranger would be shown enemies on the map perhaps and so on. Something to consider ...
Looking at self drawn maps on my desk or even at general area maps on the second monitor was indeed a lot of fun though.
kreed99 said: I have thought this over since my last post. The real question should be: how do we mimic normal human behavior? Does said human have a map, a compass or a gps device/smart phone? So in normal human society we have cartographers. Historically You can view maps that show specific locations, But without a tool to pinpoint the specific location you just look for major landmarks. That is how implementation should be IMHO - Allow community cartographers the ability to create maps and allow the game devs to split these maps into pieces have ingame dropped map pieces to be viewable/combinable. These maps would be available offline but finding them ingame allows for an achievement. However, do not allow gps locations ever. What have we learned from recent implementations? People like to complete collections to earn points towards an achievement. Lets call them the 100% completionists. I would spend many more hours in a zone hoping for a map drop to complete my map set and by default helping others learn the zone.... thus making community matter. And this would also allow an ingame map so i wouldnt have to alt-tab or print a map to look for one.
Obviously any kind of EXPLORER would obtain any tool that would be helpful in his travels depending on his funds - which includes compass, telescope, maps etc. On the other hand simple MERCENARIES and even wealthy KNIGHTS rarely had such things in their possessions. So it depend in role and mindset of the person - which doesn't much help us with it - there will always be people for it and against it. Maybe make people to choose at character creation what kind of expirience they want and maybe give an achievement for visiting all zones without a use of map - [shrug] - just a thought.
AbsoluteTerror said:No need for in-game map.
just google Pantheon RotF "Terminus"--- select image button and boom the "map"
then print it out and draw a red compass for north.
#ready to play/explore PRoTF
Agreed.
On a side note, it's "funny" that people who want an in game cartography system don't seem to like the idea of...actually mapping zones like people did in EQ. It was hard, painstaking work that some found very rewarding. They would plot everything out, design and create maps, like...literally cartography, and likely something that will never be able to be replicated via some automated skill system in a game.
Keno Monster said:AbsoluteTerror said:No need for in-game map.
just google Pantheon RotF "Terminus"--- select image button and boom the "map"
then print it out and draw a red compass for north.
#ready to play/explore PRoTF
Agreed.
I am pro Map. Having an in-game map to me, is a must. The less I have to constantly google the better. I am against the mini map --> locator stuff, but I see no harm in a basic zone + world map. More of a 'You Are Here' kind of thing. People want all this immersion but everyone knows if there is no in-game map system (at all), the majority of people will just google it anyway and alt tab or pull it up on their phone. You guys have phones, right?
I think I understand the appeal for no maps. I even think I would like no map for a while. I still would like in game map. I do lean towards a limited map, more to get your baring then an auto pilot taking you form point to point.
If I was in charge, I would make a map that slowly over time filled in with more detail. I am thinking back to the old EQ days and how I could spend a month in a zone. At the end of a month I would be fine with a map detailed with even a couple points of interest on it. I would likely add an RPG element to effect how detailed and how fast the map filled in with detail.
My main reason for wanting a map is I love playing games with my Girlfriend. But she has poor sight. The current plan for a direction pointing to each group member will help with this. But there are times that a map is just really hard to go without. So, while I imagine this is not a common issue for me it is important.
I also know that if there is not a in game map, I will likely just load them up like I did in EQ on a second screen. To me this is a shame as I would rather not have a reason to leave the game.
I also would not be surprised if a few smart people figure out how to get an in game map to display over the game.
starblight said:I think I understand the appeal for no maps. I even think I would like no map for a while. I still would like in game map. I do lean towards a limited map, more to get your baring then an auto pilot taking you form point to point.
If I was in charge, I would make a map that slowly over time filled in with more detail. I am thinking back to the old EQ days and how I could spend a month in a zone. At the end of a month I would be fine with a map detailed with even a couple points of interest on it. I would likely add an RPG element to effect how detailed and how fast the map filled in with detail.
My main reason for wanting a map is I love playing games with my Girlfriend. But she has poor sight. The current plan for a direction pointing to each group member will help with this. But there are times that a map is just really hard to go without. So, while I imagine this is not a common issue for me it is important.
I also know that if there is not a in game map, I will likely just load them up like I did in EQ on a second screen. To me this is a shame as I would rather not have a reason to leave the game.
I also would not be surprised if a few smart people figure out how to get an in game map to display over the game.
I feel for you guys on the sight issue, but this game should never, ever tell anyone what their relation is to any other object. You're not asking for a map, you're asking for GPS. Maps are used to reconcile what you see with your eyes with what you see on the map, not to tell you where other people are. We want a social game with dependence on other people and yet want to be told with zero communication where people are in the zone? No, just no. If you spend a month in a zone, you're not going to need a map anyway.
I think maps could be used as a positive influence by being in-keeping with game design and lore. They should encourage and aid exploration, not be a replacement for it. They should be an immersive tool, not a break from immersion.
I think encouraging the use of third party websites is just horrible. Immersion breaking and almost always spoiler-crammed.
An in-game map seller possibly mixed with crafting or a cartography skill would be fantastic. It totally makes sense that in a game full of adventurers, NPCs would make and sell maps and would buy maps you have made. You could buy basic maps that give useful but crude information, add to them them yourselves and sell them back when you upgrade, or just use them for your own exploration.
Dropped maps could hint at treasure or adventure to be had elsewhere.
Obviously I've not fleshed out the detail - other people have in the past - I'm just saying that there is potential for maps being not a 'cheat' or a 'spoiler' or an 'easymode' convenience, but a meaningful and worthwhile enhancement to the game.
I also like the idea because I hate the idea of being pushed to third-party websites, which is always immersion breaking and a cheat and a spoiler.
disposalist said:I think encouraging the use of third party websites is just horrible. Immersion breaking and almost always spoiler-crammed.
An in-game map seller possibly mixed with crafting or a cartography skill would be fantastic. It totally makes sense that in a game full of adventurers, NPCs would make and sell maps and would buy maps you have made. You could buy basic maps that give useful but crude information, add to them them yourselves and sell them back when you upgrade, or just use them for your own exploration.
Dropped maps could hint at treasure or adventure to be had elsewhere.
Obviously I've not fleshed out the detail - other people have in the past - I'm just saying that there is potential for maps being not a 'cheat' or a 'spoiler' or an 'easymode' convenience, but a meaningful and worthwhile enhancement to the game.
I also like the idea because I hate the idea of being pushed to third-party websites, which is always immersion breaking and a cheat and a spoiler.
I think having dropped/sold/made maps only encourages players back to third party websites. Why spend money/time either making, buying, farming for maps that you could just look up in 20 seconds? People who are looking for those extra details/hints are exactly the type to seek online resources (that will be far better and more accurate) anyway. If anything just implement a crude no-gps map for general reference and call it done.
Keno Monster said:On a side note, it's "funny" that people who want an in game cartography system don't seem to like the idea of...actually mapping zones like people did in EQ. It was hard, painstaking work that some found very rewarding. They would plot everything out, design and create maps, like...literally cartography, and likely something that will never be able to be replicated via some automated skill system in a game.
While I dont espouse a cartography system I have considered it in the past, and I had always imagined it as you had expressed. It is kinda funny that a system like that wasnt the go to remedy, because indeed it was all you said.
GPS in a fantasy game? I mean I guess it could be ok but I would much prefer my location on map being determined by some mystical power. Heck I have an issue with guns in my fantasy games satellites would for sure bother me.
For clarity I was not suggesting other players would be on the map. I was commenting on what appears to be in the game now in regards to an arrow pointing you in the direction of your group members.
As of right now the stated design is to have GPS (via /loc) and teammate direction given to you directly.
GPS + gridded maps + compass = Pantheon Google maps
I'll definitely have my full GPS map running on a second monitor with my position and heading just like WoW. It's not my preferred situation, but I find self-handicapping even less desirable.