I played a lot of EQOA for years and i was not hugely into EQ2, only casually, but one thing both games had that i thought was great were spell book drops. I liked the idea that you could have a spell no one even 10 levels higher than you had yet because you farmed the crap out of a spot for that ability. Also, spell upgrade books of current spells. The best example of this is say a necro has a pet Grim Reaper. You could farm some camp in a deep dark dungeon for a month and if very lucky get a spell that upgraded that Grim Reaper to a more powerful version like a Death Reaper or something. I feel like having these types of spells not only gives a great incentive to farming camps, but really helps make up for the "gear is everything" or "raids are everything" idea that i was just reading about in another topic on here. So say you have a few pieces of gear that are better on your necro than mine, i could potentially be just as powerful if not more because i farmed the book for the more powerful pet. This in my opionion would make the XP camps just as viable end game as an open world raid boss being camped.
striderida1 said:I played a lot of EQOA for years and i was not hugely into EQ2, only casually, but one thing both games had that i thought was great were spell book drops. I liked the idea that you could have a spell no one even 10 levels higher than you had yet because you farmed the crap out of a spot for that ability. Also, spell upgrade books of current spells. The best example of this is say a necro has a pet Grim Reaper. You could farm some camp in a deep dark dungeon for a month and if very lucky get a spell that upgraded that Grim Reaper to a more powerful version like a Death Reaper or something. I feel like having these types of spells not only gives a great incentive to farming camps, but really helps make up for the "gear is everything" or "raids are everything" idea that i was just reading about in another topic on here. So say you have a few pieces of gear that are better on your necro than mine, i could potentially be just as powerful if not more because i farmed the book for the more powerful pet. This in my opionion would make the XP camps just as viable end game as an open world raid boss being camped.
Yes, I loved this as well :)
As much as I've always disliked rarity based upon a random number generator where X mob has Y chance to spawn from this placeholder and can drop the item you need/want Z% of the time I know these are crucial for the welfare of the game. If you got everything you wanted the first try, you would quickly lose interest in the game as rewards wouldn't be very rewarding.
Where I have an issue with this is when content has to be designed as if everyone had the item/spell in question. EQ1 suffered from this starting in, if memory serves, Omens of War where high end spells had variable strengths based upon which rune you managed to turn in. Any high end content which wasn't designed with the players using the best spells available would end up being trivial. You then end up with a system where unless you have the best of everything your ability to move forward is severely hampered.
So care must be taken when determining what should be a rare drop and what should be common or merely uncommon and how that item/spell/ability can impact the content.
EQ1 had it right when Research still mattered. You got pages, you had to assemble the pages and that would be an ingredient for making a scroll for a new spell. Spell casters had it tough back then, because the mobs that dropped pages always dropped pages 4-6 levels below their level, so if you just dinged 29, your researched level 29 spells needed drops from level 33-36 mobs, and you might have a level 26-27 spell in your lineup.
That was tough, and you ended up using the same spells for a long time. Spells advancement sucked pretty hard and you had to group if you wanted your spellbook current with your level.
+1 to EQ's Research skill. Quite the pain in the a** to raise as well. But, it was truly an accomplishment to have 200 research and a full spellbook. It also became a good way to make money or help friends/guildies as it was a tradeskill that was always in need. Honestly, it's a feature of EQ I often overlook when thinking about EQlaunch, but it was an important one.
I think the key point is to have multple avenues through which players can obtain certain things. You can either quest for it, get it as a drop or combine tradeskills and drops to get it. I wouldn't want the name to be the same because differentiating between the dropped, quested and tradeskilled version are another way of letting players stand out from each other.
Venjenz said:EQ1 had it right when Research still mattered. You got pages, you had to assemble the pages and that would be an ingredient for making a scroll for a new spell. Spell casters had it tough back then, because the mobs that dropped pages always dropped pages 4-6 levels below their level, so if you just dinged 29, your researched level 29 spells needed drops from level 33-36 mobs, and you might have a level 26-27 spell in your lineup.
That was tough, and you ended up using the same spells for a long time. Spells advancement sucked pretty hard and you had to group if you wanted your spellbook current with your level.
I can relate to this very much. Not only were the research pages hard to find, but if you didn't do research or couldnt find someone else to reasearch it for you, the only alternative was buying spells from other players at rediculous prices... really REALLY rediculous prices.
I wasn't a big fan of research, but I like the idea of finding/earning the top spells rather than simply buying them from a vendor or being granted them for free. I thought EQ handled this really well in PoP and beyond with runes/parchments. These items had a CHANCE to drop from named mobs and raid bosses and could be turned in for the top level spells. For example, when level cap was 65 in PoP the drops looked something like this:
Ethereal Parchment = lvl 61/62 spells
Spectral Parchment = lvl 63/64 spells
Glyphed Rune Word = lvl 65 spells
You would turn these in to specific NPC's and they would grant you a class-appropriate spell in the given level range of the parchment/rune. Great system, loved it.
Dekaden said:I wasn't a big fan of research, but I like the idea of finding/earning the top spells rather than simply buying them from a vendor or being granted them for free. I thought EQ handled this really well in PoP and beyond with runes/parchments. These items had a CHANCE to drop from named mobs and raid bosses and could be turned in for the top level spells. For example, when level cap was 65 in PoP the drops looked something like this:
Ethereal Parchment = lvl 61/62 spells
Spectral Parchment = lvl 63/64 spells
Glyphed Rune Word = lvl 65 spellsYou would turn these in to specific NPC's and they would grant you a class-appropriate spell in the given level range of the parchment/rune. Great system, loved it.
That was a much better way than the mob dropping the actual spells because it meant fewer spells rotting on the corpse. At least this way casters, any caster, could see a reward. Where it next fell apart was when you would turn in several Glyphic Rune Words and get the same spell each time.
I actually like the spells dropping better. In general, I don't like token systems. They are such a generic approach to character advancement. Spells were not nodrop so they could be traded which added to the player driven economy and encouraged interaction between players.
Dullahan said:I actually like the spells dropping better. In general, I don't like token systems. They are such a generic approach to character advancement. Spells were not nodrop so they could be traded which added to the player driven economy and encouraged interaction between players.
I also dislike token systems, but the way this was handled in EQ was refreshing, and there was still some RNG involved. When this system was implemented, all classes needed the spell turn-in drops which encouraged grouping and seeking out named for a chance to get a spell turn-in drop. You also had to roll against other players when they did drop. On top of that, turning in a glyphed rune for a lvl 65 spell for example wouldnt guarantee you would get the spell you were after. It simply gave you a random lvl 65 spell for your class. Extra spells you didnt need could be sold to other players. IMO, this is much more palatable than the token systems as seen in WoW and Rift where everyone is awarded tokens for completing tasks, you save them up, then buy what you want from an NPC vendor with zero player interaction. I believe EQ later changed the system to allow the player to chose the spell, or they were dispensed in a set order or something like that... I cant quite remember. However, I do remember disliking the change.
Contrast this to the old EQ method of aquiring spells, which was pure luck/RNG from random mobs with massive loot tables. Some mobs had a higher chance to drop certain spells, but it was one hell of a grind. I myself along with many others I played with had to resort to buying some spells from other players at insane prices. With the influx of RMT, some of these prices were simply not realistic for the player who aquired coin legitimately. Yet they still sold like hotcakes so the price never really came down. To add insult to injury, our melee bretheren didnt suffer from these player development grinds, at least not on the same level as spell casters.
I really dont care how Pantheon handles this, as long as some spells are aquired from substantial adventuring. Be it named mob drops, random drops, quests, or loot drop turn-in. Trading is fine, as long as its not the main method or only realistic means of aquisition. I'd rather not have critical class-defining spells and abilities subjected to the harsh reality of what RMT does to a game economy.
Dullahan said:I actually like the spells dropping better. In general, I don't like token systems. They are such a generic approach to character advancement. Spells were not nodrop so they could be traded which added to the player driven economy and encouraged interaction between players.
I really disliked only having spell drops because in cases where the spell was highly desirable it lead to guilds perma-farming the mob that dropped it thus controlling the market and charging exhorbitant prices (probably for RMTing purposes).
I agree with the people who say spell farming was better on paper than it worked out, but I think there would be a way to make it more balanced. Other people pointed out already that it became difficult to gauge "when" casters should have their spells in balance with the mobs, and that in EQ, there were level dispareties that made casters lag behind. There's one other piece of the puzzle that made it unfair for casters in classic EQ though: Not only did they need to farm for their spells (which melee classes obviously did not need to do, making casters more difficult early on), but the cost of spells at vendors was a huge plat sink, and put casters at an EVEN BIGGER disadvantage in EQ during early levels. Monks, Warriors, and Rogues could breeze right through life with everything they needed except gear, while casters and hybrids suffered (pure casters more than hybrids of course). And, the casters also needed gear of course so there wasn't really a balance.
However, I don't think the answer is to trivialize spell acquisition in this game. I would love to see a return to research and farming for spells (although maybe with some tweaks to make it so top guilds can't just farm a specific mob then extort the market). I think what would be nice would to see an equal mechanic moved over to the melee classes, so everyone has to work for their new skills instead of the tradition "hey, you just ding'd! now you magically and instantly have a new skill!"
Maybe your guild master could refuse to show you the "new moves" until you prove yourself with a certain quest. Melee classes could be rewarded with skills and caster classes could be rewarded by the master teaching a spelll. Then maybe there could also be rare books that drop that teach casters spells and give melee classes different abilities that the guildmaster didn't know.
I'm in favor of needing to work for your new spells/skills outside of just an exp grind, but it should be something all classes need to do, not just casters.
I see a lot of opinions on ways to obtain spells so why not have a variety? You can have mobs drop spells directly, drop glyphs to turn in for spells, or drop the components to make the spells.
Vandraad said:Dullahan said:I actually like the spells dropping better. In general, I don't like token systems. They are such a generic approach to character advancement. Spells were not nodrop so they could be traded which added to the player driven economy and encouraged interaction between players.
I really disliked only having spell drops because in cases where the spell was highly desirable it lead to guilds perma-farming the mob that dropped it thus controlling the market and charging exhorbitant prices (probably for RMTing purposes).
In EQ early on, like 99% of the dropped spells were completely random off of mobs of similar level. The only example of this I can think where there was real farming or blocking involved was Ishva in split paw on a 36 hour timer (dropped a necro spell).
So permitted most abilities don't drop off only one mob, I think it will be fine.
Brad had already mentioned that where people traveled, will have an effect on what they know. That certain skill unlocks, or abilities will be found out in the game. Not given to you.
It is the base premis of Pantheon.. that mechants & vendors won't flush out your spell book, you will have to be actively participating in the game world, to have a full compliment of spells & abilities.
Dekaden said:Dullahan said:I actually like the spells dropping better. In general, I don't like token systems. They are such a generic approach to character advancement. Spells were not nodrop so they could be traded which added to the player driven economy and encouraged interaction between players.
I also dislike token systems, but the way this was handled in EQ was refreshing, and there was still some RNG involved. When this system was implemented, all classes needed the spell turn-in drops which encouraged grouping and seeking out named for a chance to get a spell turn-in drop. You also had to roll against other players when they did drop. On top of that, turning in a glyphed rune for a lvl 65 spell for example wouldnt guarantee you would get the spell you were after. It simply gave you a random lvl 65 spell for your class. Extra spells you didnt need could be sold to other players. IMO, this is much more palatable than the token systems as seen in WoW and Rift where everyone is awarded tokens for completing tasks, you save them up, then buy what you want from an NPC vendor with zero player interaction. I believe EQ later changed the system to allow the player to chose the spell, or they were dispensed in a set order or something like that... I cant quite remember. However, I do remember disliking the change.
Contrast this to the old EQ method of aquiring spells, which was pure luck/RNG from random mobs with massive loot tables. Some mobs had a higher chance to drop certain spells, but it was one hell of a grind. I myself along with many others I played with had to resort to buying some spells from other players at insane prices. With the influx of RMT, some of these prices were simply not realistic for the player who aquired coin legitimately. Yet they still sold like hotcakes so the price never really came down. To add insult to injury, our melee bretheren didnt suffer from these player development grinds, at least not on the same level as spell casters.
I really dont care how Pantheon handles this, as long as some spells are aquired from substantial adventuring. Be it named mob drops, random drops, quests, or loot drop turn-in. Trading is fine, as long as its not the main method or only realistic means of aquisition. I'd rather not have critical class-defining spells and abilities subjected to the harsh reality of what RMT does to a game economy.
I remember when they did this, and I remember really hating it. The token system really put the worst in people on display, it was common for everyone in the group to roll on the glyph even if they didn't need it, on top of the fact that people would be trying for 1 single spell wasting a bunch of glyphs when you could have needed all of your spells.
Just make the spells themselves drop and the players will be much more likely to say oh you need that? ok its yours you are the right class and i want you to be more powerful to help the group.
Raidan said:+1 to EQ's Research skill. Quite the pain in the a** to raise as well. But, it was truly an accomplishment to have 200 research and a full spellbook. It also became a good way to make money or help friends/guildies as it was a tradeskill that was always in need. Honestly, it's a feature of EQ I often overlook when thinking about EQlaunch, but it was an important one.
Agreed... I enjoyed the heck out of the Research Skill and would hope to see it brought back with Pantheon. I also made a small fortune "Dumpster Diving" Vendors searching for discarded pages that other players sold for cheap, and then I would turn around and combine them and sell them for a nice profit. These types of elements added a gameplay element that I truly enjoyed, it was like a game in a game (so-to-speak)...
Mem'd spells are one thing you will lose with the progeny system restart. I like the the idea of rare drop spells...and I guess it would be one more thing that would matter once you are on your last play through. But, there will end up being a lot of people who don't plan well and waste a bunch of time camping for nothing. Don't be that guy...
philo said:Mem'd spells are one thing you will lose with the progeny system restart. I like the the idea of rare drop spells...and I guess it would be one more thing that would matter once you are on your last play through. But, there will end up being a lot of people who don't plan well and waste a bunch of time camping for nothing. Don't be that guy...
Unlikely here. Unless there is a very significant advantage in using Progeny, I wont be. A minor stat increase for a 2nd time around isnt going to compell me to kill a character that I certainly hope takes months to get to cap level.
Resurrecting this thread to throw in my 2cp.
As a Caster I long for the days of finding an occasional Rune to add to my collection to barter and trade with others to create my spells, the passing "words" to my friends in exchange for the Runes they had collected. And yes I was aware of the controversy of melee types not needing to research abilities and how "unfair" that was. One of the downfalls of being a melee I suppose. It was really a disappointment to find the solution to this "unfairness" was to remove some of the game from me instead of adding some "game" to them.
I also liked finding the occasional spell on a random kill, and as well the need to organizing the occasional dungon group to retrieve a spell from a known boss that held it.
I have many memories of the journeys I had to travel back and forth accrost the world to purchase different spells from different merchant's for myself, my Druid and Magician friends.
These were all good times, not bad. I hope to see them all avalable in Terminas. I hope to see many of them being the only method of aquiring the spells I need.
I do not want to see a token system, I find that too impersonal like an "everybody wins participation trophy" , thank you but no, I would rather earn it or go without. And I would rather earn it than just purchase it, some could be purchased, but the choice spells, I should need to do the work for.