Can this happen the way Pantheon is envisaged to work.
Me and my group go in a dungeon we get to last Boss and get him down to x% health and he wipes us, along comes another group and finish him off and walk away with the loot?
Technically, yes. If your group full wipes, the mob should reset and another group can take it. They've been very clear that the vast majority of dungeons will be open world shared areas that can support multiple groups at the same time. This is how it was back in EQ. If there was another group in the area, they might take your named mob, but for the most part everyone tried to cooperate. If you wiped, a nearby cleric was usually willing rez your cleric so you could get back up and running. It was a community thing and a reputation thing. We all needed to rely on each other to overcome obstacles in the game -- this was universal without exclusion. The devs are setting up Pantheon to function in this same way.
From everything we know so far, Pantheon dungeons will not be like the instanced dungeons of WoW where following a linear progression to the final boss = dungeon complete, rinse and repeat. Think open world "area" that requires a group to explore for loot, exp, and named mobs. There could be a bosses triggered via quest or something of that nature, which might lock the encounter to your group, but we dont have much detail on that yet.
Tuhart said:Can this happen the way Pantheon is envisaged to work.
Me and my group go in a dungeon we get to last Boss and get him down to x% health and he wipes us, along comes another group and finish him off and walk away with the loot?
It doesn't seem like you are familiar with EQ, so just to let you know, there is seldom just 1 boss in a dungeon. If you wipe, chances are there will be other places in the dungeon you can go and unless the mob was a raid boss, you will likely have another chance at him within the hour.
Usually when an encounter resets the mob goes back to 100%. So you may lose the pull, but the other group doesn't get to pick up where you left off.
Really depends on how the game handles encounter mechanics though. I would imagine there will be some kind of encounter locking mechanism to prevent other groups from screwing with your attempt.
Tuhart said:@Dullahan
You are missing my point.(question)
We fight the boss and get him down to 2% health.
We then wipe.
can another group jump in at 2% health and finish him off and collect the spoils.
Or does he reset to 100% health and then they carry on?
Regards
Usually if a group wipes, it restarts at 100%.
Yep. Sounds perfectly plausible.
To echo Dekaden here, the community would be the counter to that, because the group that came in to ninja the boss after you clear down to it would be a server forum drama thread maybe 30 seconds later, and word would get out not to group or guild invite anyone in that killsteal group. Most guilds had immediate /gkick rules for members who did that, as in a guild leader gets notified by random player that one of their guildies just did the boss KS routine, and the player got kicked within a minute or so of the event's verification.
A group centric game can be a lonely, difficult place when everyone has you on their "Do Not Group/Help/Talk To" list. If the mechanics are such that you aren't getting far without a legit group, then you'll be forced to do one of two things - 1) don't play like a jack@$$ and annoy the entire server, or 2) take your foolishness all the way and be famous for griefing. Every server in EQ1 had famous griefers. Fansy the bard on Sullon Zek probably most famous game wide, since he forced the entire ruleset to change based solely on his own creative use of mechanics.
But the serious griefers in group centric games are few and far between, and they end up getting banned or bored. In all my time in EQ1 (5 total years on and off again), I ran into grief maybe 10-12 times? This is why in the griefer discussions, my plea to VR is to just make sure they call it both ways. If the camp idea is not officially recognized and kill/camp stealing is one of those "you kids figure it out on your own" things, then all the ways to figure it out on our own should be fair game as well.
Tuhart said:sorry to press.
So we clear the trash etc all the way to the boss, wipe and a group following does not have to encounter the trash and walks straight up to the boss to have a go at 100%. (correct timings assumed on trash not respawning if they do at all.)
Yep. That could indeed happen, and everyone in that group following you would be on the server's official gooftard list of people to deny anything and everything. In all my time in EQ1, I never experienced that scenario, and only heard of it on server drama threads like 2-3x a year.
Well if everyone comes from the EQ old school there will be no problem what so ever.
If however VR are hoping to have a new wave of people, like end game progression guilds coming across on block from WoW, for World firsts etc I can see there being a problem.(these guilds tend to stick to themselves and to not co-operate with others outside the guild, indeed they have no need too)
Tuhart said:Well if everyone comes from the EQ old school there will be no problem what so ever.
If however VR are hoping to have a new wave of people, like end game progression guilds coming across on block from WoW, for World firsts etc I can see there being a problem.(these guilds tend to stick to themselves and to not co-operate with others outside the guild, indeed they have no need too)
A guild going for world firsts will be done with the boss of whatever dungeon you care about weeks/months before you (and the other 99% of your server) ever set foot in it. Assuming you catch up to UberGuild_01 someday, then you'll be playing guild drama games for raid bosses, and there are worse problems to have. UberGuild_01 world first people don't play sissy and let you clear trash so they can walk right to a boss. They steamroll the whole dungeon and farm the boss.
The people you are talking about are not world first progression guild maniacs, but griefers and sissies who can't handle the content and think they can cash in on your work. Those people aren't world first'ers, they are world dead-last'ers.
@Tuhart
I hear your fears, but I echo others that the community will control the griefers. The WoW community would have to completely change their playstyle and mindset to play a game like Pantheon - there are no instant gratification rewards, so the need for others and a positive server reputation trumps the selfish behavior, and if not, as others have said, they're shunned and have to /quit, /reroll, or are /banned.
Another thing as well, if Pantheon adopts "Camp Style" dungeon mechanics, it would be counterproductive for a second group to continually follow the first group around in hopes that they would wipe. There would be plenty of other "camps" within that dungeon where the second group could fight, obtain loot, and experience. And, many times, there were lists that were created for who had "next" at the contested camp, so that once the previous (1st) group left, the second group moved in. It just becomes more understood that if one camp is taken, the 2nd group moves on to another, versus a Crawl style dungeon in which the goal is to wipe out the entire dungeon, rinse and repeat. Basically, the "camp" style dungeon promotes sharing, where the crawl would invite griefing more (although even with a large enough crawl dungeon, I'm sure it would be a hybrid of a camp/crawl for Pantheon versus a 20-30 minute dungeon run like WoW).
@Tuhart
Basically what everyone here is saying is that the game definitely targets the "Old(er) School" crowd of MMO players. Most of these players tend to be quite decent, and the few bad apples that do spring up are generally quashed under the server community (Ignore lists/do not invite lists/etc). It's generally unacceptable behavior on games like Pantheon to think about doing what you suggest (kill stealing), and it is usually dealt with quite harshly. In my time on EQ2, we've kicked no less than 3 people from our guild in the last 4 months for doing just these kinds of things. Granted, EQ2 does have a lot of instanced content as well, so I'm sure we don't see as much on EQ2 as some do on the original EQ or on Vanguard (which, unfortunately, I never had a chance to play). That being said, the "let's follow a raid group and hope they wipe so we can steal the kill" mentality will not be tolerated in my guild or groups.
Tuhart said:Can this happen the way Pantheon is envisaged to work.
Me and my group go in a dungeon we get to last Boss and get him down to x% health and he wipes us, along comes another group and finish him off and walk away with the loot?
Don't wipe. But, good players will let you have the loot.
Bad players go on the list.
Amsai said: Hmmmm. Interesting what is considered bad behavior. Then again I played AC and then FFXI. That wasnt considered bad behavior and neither would that earn you bad rep. At least when it came to bosses. Sure if someone camped ontop of your xp camp or if someone was MPKing or if someone was ninja looting instead of properly passing loot or casting lots. Yes that woulf make your bame mud on the server. But grabbing the boss the other guild failed to kill? Never. That was go big or go home. If a party wiped sure youd help them up but then it was your turn. They failed it was understood they should step back.
Yeah, that had serious repercussion in EQ. Reason being because boss timers were crazy. You had to go through a lot in order to get to the camp, then the encounter itself was unlike any i've seen in a very long time. So for some guild to run up and ninja a boss is a HUGE no no ! Seen guilds break up becuase of such things :(
The "community will police itself" approach will probably work fine against single persons, however I have heard of whole guilds (luckily never really experienced them) which have as their main/only purpose to disrupt others playing as much as possible. Ignoring/blacklisting them won't have much effect, as they can still play among their own guildmembers. I suppose if such a guild comes to Pantheon and on your server, your only hope would be that they'll leave soon, or for you to leave and start over on another server.
Amsai said: Hmmmm. Interesting what is considered bad behavior. Then again I played AC and then FFXI. That wasnt considered bad behavior and neither would that earn you bad rep. At least when it came to bosses. Sure if someone camped ontop of your xp camp or if someone was MPKing or if someone was ninja looting instead of properly passing loot or casting lots. Yes that woulf make your bame mud on the server. But grabbing the boss the other guild failed to kill? Never. That was go big or go home. If a party wiped sure youd help them up but then it was your turn. They failed it was understood they should step back.
I think you're referring to theme park mechanics where the boss instantly recovers all their hit points.
The question was based on a sandbox, natural regeneration mechanic where the boss is down to .5% and the dots don't get him. Then, a group just showing up, or a guild still gathering, pops all their cooldowns and finishes him off.
In Pantheon, it sounds like the opportunity to do that will be there. And that was the original posters concern. Which emphasizes what you said and i agree with. Just get er dun.
Tuhart said:sorry to press.
So we clear the trash etc all the way to the boss, wipe and a group following does not have to encounter the trash and walks straight up to the boss to have a go at 100%. (correct timings assumed on trash not respawning if they do at all.)
In EQ trash respawns. Unless group 2 is within a certain timeframe behind you, they will need to clear their way as well.
Amsai said: Nah I had it right its just if iy was a total wipe. It was just first to claim. If the other guild could somehow recover. Sure. But if not it was anyones claim. And that was just the way of it. It wasnt considered bad manners. Even if it was a 72 hour pop. It was more of a you had your chance now be courteous and dont hog the mob kinda thing. Not that Im against the EQ way. Its just the only thing along those lines in XI that would get you bad rep if you wiped and lost claim to another guild then complained about it.The japanese players wouldnt put up with that for 2 seconds. At that point you got a rep for being sore losers. It was considered a lack of cortesy on the order of when peoole beg for in game money
That's what the question was. 'If its a total wipe, then someone else comes in and finishs off the kill, taking the loot. Is that possible in Pantheon?'.
If that wasn't considered bad behaviour in the games you played, then I'm glad I never played those games.
In EQ trash respawns. Unless group 2 is within a certain timeframe behind you, they will need to clear their way as well.
18 minutes was the standard dungeon respawn timer. Given that most indoor camps were 4-8 mobs that required about 5-10 minutes to move past, and some camps overlapped aggro, if you didn't keep moving, the back line would end up with front line troubles.
I imagine Pantheon will be mostly open world which will give the game a great dynamic feeling. The one thing I hope is that names are not static and they will have a chance to spawn in different locations within a region. Obviously a tougher mob would still remain deeper in, just multiple possible locations that require a lot of clearing. I still prefer them to remain rare though, not spawning every % minutes. This also gives tracking classes a huge need in the game.
So back to the issue brought up, a group cannot just run in and steal your mob as easily. They could by chance, but that would be slim.
Tuhart said:Can this happen the way Pantheon is envisaged to work.
Me and my group go in a dungeon we get to last Boss and get him down to x% health and he wipes us, along comes another group and finish him off and walk away with the loot?
I want to point out that this particular mechanic has not been discussed by a developer that I am aware of, so we really don't know how it's going to behave in game.
However, since this game is inspired by EQ I would suspect that the mob will either immediately regen back to 100% health or, preferably, regen back to 100% at an enhanced rate than normal but not instantly. This way if your group recovers you may be able ot re-engage before it has fully recouped it's HP.
I have no problem with wiping and another group finishing off the mob. I do not believe in instancing for open world content with exceptions to possibly rare instances of raid/quest pops.
Tuhart said:Pantheon may be different than WoW and other games in some aspects. But even if the game has more competition, it can be seen as more of a challenge. You should give the game a try before deciding not to play becuase of a single feature. There are a lot of WoW type clones out there, how about trying something different?Well if everyone comes from the EQ old school there will be no problem what so ever.
If however VR are hoping to have a new wave of people, like end game progression guilds coming across on block from WoW, for World firsts etc I can see there being a problem.(these guilds tend to stick to themselves and to not co-operate with others outside the guild, indeed they have no need too)