Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

In-Game Store Plans?

    • 668 posts
    November 12, 2015 2:35 PM PST

    I am new supporter of Pantheon and am really glad I recently got involved.  I searched the forums and did not find much information on this subject.

    What will be the plans, offerings, and or depth of an in-game / online store like most MMOs are doing today?

    Reason I ask is because to me, it takes away from immersion element.  I am really wanting a game where you can earn everything playing the actual game.  So this would mean not wanting to see special mounts, gear, exp potions, you name it, available to buy from this store.  Now I have no clue how much this brings in for support dollars but assume it helps.  Would be a shame if Pantheon has to go this route.

    Again, I am late in the game and a new supporter recently if this has already been discussed then my apologies.  I have not see the topic yet searching available resources.

    • 138 posts
    November 12, 2015 2:59 PM PST

    The best thing to do to get a ton of your questions answered is to read the entire FAQ page found here. But to quickly answer your question, no. VR has a subscription model they are going to be following and at this time they have no intentions of adding a cash shop.


    This post was edited by Katalyzt at November 12, 2015 3:00 PM PST
    • 9115 posts
    November 12, 2015 3:17 PM PST

    Katalyzt said:

    The best thing to do to get a ton of your questions answered is to read the entire FAQ page found here. But to quickly answer your question, no. VR has a subscription model they are going to be following and at this time they have no intentions of adding a cash shop.

    Thank you Katalyst, the FAQ is a great way to find out a bunch of consolidated information quickly :)

    We will not have a cash shop.


    This post was edited by VR-Mod1 at November 16, 2015 3:39 PM PST
    • 668 posts
    November 12, 2015 3:48 PM PST

    Yes thanks Katalyst, found it reading all the FAQ...  great read actually :)

    • 999 posts
    November 12, 2015 7:58 PM PST

    Pyye,

    Welcome and I had created a thread and Kilsin had created an annoucement about this topic back in January 2015.  I've linked the threads below:

    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/1637/pair-of-sprinter-s-boots

    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/1651/pantheon-store-has-been-removed


    This post was edited by Raidan at November 12, 2015 8:07 PM PST
    • 668 posts
    November 12, 2015 8:21 PM PST

    Thanks Raidan...  Good read

    Just my two cents from a LONG time EQ / Vanguard supporter, not a fan of ANY online purchasing that has to do with anything used inside the game.  Sure, be it anything else like logo'd stuff, T-shirts, etc...  love to buy and support.  You know, with all the money people are making on Twitch, I would think there are enough of us to support through a donation type process to keep the game true to its roots.  Has to be a similar way.  Trust me, if I were to come off a great night playing Pantheon, instead of throwing money at a streamer, I would throw it toward the game you are providing.  That could add up and keep things rolling...

    • 999 posts
    November 12, 2015 8:25 PM PST

    You're welcome and I have no issue with external items such as T-Shirts, Coffee mugs, etc. being sold in support of the team - I'm just firmly aganist P2W cash shops.

    • 155 posts
    November 13, 2015 12:41 PM PST

    I completely agree. Adding anything at all in game pretty much sucks.  Im totally down to buy apparel though and having a seperate donations page and stuff.

    • 161 posts
    November 13, 2015 1:39 PM PST

    Kilsin said:

    Katalyzt said:

    The best thing to do to get a ton of your questions answered is to read the entire FAQ page found here. But to quickly answer your question, no. VR has a subscription model they are going to be following and at this time they have no intentions of adding a cash shop.

    Thank you Katalyst, the FAQ is a great way to find out a bunch of consolidated information quickly :)

    We will not have a cash shop.

     

    Kilsin,

    This is a slippery slope. If you start selling anything at all, there will always be the pressure to sell a bit more, sell this item that might have a wee bit of stats, sell an exp potion, etc etc. The only way is to not do it at all.

    If you do it, investors that want revenue and those "players" that want to buy their status in game will cook you like a frog. They'll ask first for innocent stuff, then for almost-innocent stuff, each step will be very small, but in a couple years you will be selling things you never originally thought you would sell.


    Don't . Just don't. The only way to win that game is to not play it at all.

    Admin Edited quote to better reflect our stance.


    This post was edited by VR-Mod1 at November 16, 2015 3:46 PM PST
    • 1434 posts
    November 13, 2015 2:16 PM PST

    Aethor said:

    Kilsin said:

    Katalyzt said:

    The best thing to do to get a ton of your questions answered is to read the entire FAQ page found here. But to quickly answer your question, no. VR has a subscription model they are going to be following and at this time they have no intentions of adding a cash shop.

    Thank you Katalyst, the FAQ is a great way to find out a bunch of consolidated information quickly :)

    We will not have a cash shop.

     

    Kilsin,

    This is a slippery slope. If you start selling anything at all, there will always be the pressure to sell a bit more, sell this item that might have a wee bit of stats, sell an exp potion, etc etc. The only way is to not do it at all.

    If you do it, investors that want revenue and those "players" that want to buy their status in game will cook you like a frog. They'll ask first for innocent stuff, then for almost-innocent stuff, each step will be very small, but in a couple years you will be selling things you never originally thought you would sell.


    Don't . Just don't. The only way to win that game is to not play it at all.

     

    I agree. I think the only thing they should sell is out of game things. There was a thread earlier this year about selling 3d prints of a players character or notable mobs. I think that and other paraphenalia is a much safer option without ever having to worry about interfering with the game itself.

    Admin Edited quote for a more accurate stance.


    This post was edited by VR-Mod1 at November 16, 2015 3:47 PM PST
    • 89 posts
    November 14, 2015 9:39 AM PST

    Maps, t-shirts, hats, phone skins, vape mod skins, key chains, things like that would be fine to offer from an onlne store, but i agree with the general sentiment that in-game purchases are a slippery slope.

    • 105 posts
    November 14, 2015 3:13 PM PST

    No in game store, whatsoever.  Please.  

    • 2130 posts
    November 14, 2015 10:51 PM PST

    Aethor said:

    Kilsin said:

    Katalyzt said:

    The best thing to do to get a ton of your questions answered is to read the entire FAQ page found here. But to quickly answer your question, no. VR has a subscription model they are going to be following and at this time they have no intentions of adding a cash shop.

    Thank you Katalyst, the FAQ is a great way to find out a bunch of consolidated information quickly :)

    We will not have a cash shop.

     

    Kilsin,

    This is a slippery slope. If you start selling anything at all, there will always be the pressure to sell a bit more, sell this item that might have a wee bit of stats, sell an exp potion, etc etc. The only way is to not do it at all.

    If you do it, investors that want revenue and those "players" that want to buy their status in game will cook you like a frog. They'll ask first for innocent stuff, then for almost-innocent stuff, each step will be very small, but in a couple years you will be selling things you never originally thought you would sell.


    Don't . Just don't. The only way to win that game is to not play it at all.

     

     

    The irony being that this is actually a slippery slope fallacy, and that a cash shop does not have to go to those lengths. SOE/Daybreak, for instance, have had a cash shop in the game for years, and nothing in it influences the power of your character.

    Admin Edited quote for a more accurate stance.


    This post was edited by VR-Mod1 at November 16, 2015 3:47 PM PST
    • 668 posts
    November 14, 2015 11:03 PM PST

     

     

    The irony being that this is actually a slippery slope fallacy, and that a cash shop does not have to go to those lengths. SOE/Daybreak, for instance, have had a cash shop in the game for years, and nothing in it influences the power of your character.

     

    To me, viewing anything in game that is bought online ruins the game experience / immersion.  I think a lot of us just want to be able to earn everything in the game.  Mounts are a great example of Daybreak online purchases.  Hate it...

    And to say it does not power a character, exp potions, extra bank space, and other similar perks actually do give a player an advantage.

    Pyye

    • 88 posts
    November 14, 2015 11:07 PM PST

    Pyye said:

    To me, viewing anything in game that is bought online ruins the game experience / immersion.  I think a lot of us just want to be able to earn everything in the game.  Mounts are a great example of Daybreak online purchases.  Hate it...

    And to say it does not power a character, exp potions, extra bank space, and other similar perks actually do give a player an advantage.

    Pyye

     

    The only thing I'm really in favor for are 2 things: Server transfers and appearance alterations (Race change options). Other then that, nothing.

    • 2130 posts
    November 14, 2015 11:10 PM PST

    Pyye said:

    To me, viewing anything in game that is bought online ruins the game experience / immersion.  I think a lot of us just want to be able to earn everything in the game.  Mounts are a great example of Daybreak online purchases.  Hate it...

    And to say it does not power a character, exp potions, extra bank space, and other similar perks actually do give a player an advantage.

    Pyye

     

    All of the mounts in the marketplace are terrible, though.

     

    EXP potions don't increase character power. EXP is an arbitrary number that accumulates regardless of player action. Stat modification and non-cosmetic armor/weapons is where the line is typically drawn at pay2win. Bank space is also not character power.

    Cosmetic skins are a great revenue source for companies and it has no real impact on gameplay. The vast majority of gamers purchase cosmetic skins in droves, which leads to more revenue and more quality development by extension.

     

    That said, I do have one caveat about the experience potions. Usually in games these aren't available at release, which is good. However, a year or more after release, it starts to make sense, when we're leveling alt #13. By the time EXP potions hit the cash shops in most games, everyone's mains are already max level. EQ had already been out for nearly a decade before they came out.


    This post was edited by Liav at November 14, 2015 11:11 PM PST
    • 75 posts
    November 15, 2015 2:47 AM PST

    I am a player that does not want to level alt #13.  I am hoping that the and its pathways, lore, adventure, immersion keep me focussing on my main character - the one i want to be playing.  I have watched so many games collapse on themselves due to lack of content driving alt creation, exp (bought or gifted) potions meaning alts wizz by content they should be seeing and (finding difficult).

     

    Also we have to be careful about perceived "player power" - if you buy a 30 slot bag for your lvl 1 character you are at a great advantage over the rest of us with our 6 slot starting back pack.  time adventuring and gathering is balanced against finding vendors and selling stuff.  While i often whinged about bag room at various points in various games i loved the constant draw to lttle towns/hamlets or even travelling vendors.  Was also useful to meet people and then perhaps grp up for an hour.

    In game purchases worry me.  I support external support and i recall Blizzard actually starting some of their 'sales' with models of your character, great idea/gimmick but what came next - horrible.

     

    If appearance skins are so important - get them linked to lvling milestones or hidden achievements.  the only player pay transactions i support are - server transfer, race/sex swap.

     

    Please don't risk it - i would pay a couple of dollars etc per month on a sub to avoid this


    This post was edited by Narben4 at November 15, 2015 2:47 AM PST
    • 366 posts
    November 15, 2015 5:28 AM PST

    Liav said:

    Aethor said:

    Kilsin said:

    Katalyzt said:

    ...

    .... we do however leave ourselves open to the possibility of selling other items for revenue if we deem it suitable or have community requests, there is currently no plans to do that, however, I am just covering our bases in case it ever comes up in the future but it would be done tastefully and not intrusive or game breaking.

     

    Kilsin,

    This is a slippery slope. If you start selling anything at all, there will always be the pressure to sell a bit more, sell this item that might have a wee bit of stats, sell an exp potion, etc etc. The only way is to not do it at all.

    If you do it, investors that want revenue and those "players" that want to buy their status in game will cook you like a frog. They'll ask first for innocent stuff, then for almost-innocent stuff, each step will be very small, but in a couple years you will be selling things you never originally thought you would sell.


    Don't . Just don't. The only way to win that game is to not play it at all.

     

    The irony being that this is actually a slippery slope fallacy, and that a cash shop does not have to go to those lengths. SOE/Daybreak, for instance, have had a cash shop in the game for years, and nothing in it influences the power of your character.

    You do buy power with SOE/Daybreak's cash shop.  I haven't actively played in the last few years but the cash shop is what ruined my playing of EQ2 and one of the major reasons why I will not play on the EQ TLP servers. You can buy Krono which you sell for plat (in game currency) which you use to buy gear which equals power. You can buy high level characters which is power. The worst was you could buy AA's (their talent/advancement system to get better spells and enhancements) which was purely buying power.

     

    I completely agree with Aethor (and most of the posters in this thread).

     

    Kilsin your post really worries me.  Pantheon's integrity has been questioned in the past. We need you to assure us that Pantheon will stand by it's word.  VRI was all  against the cash shop to the point of messing up all the previous pledges. I understand you need to be flexible in your language because the game is in development, but not on this topic - we need you to be firm. It goes against your FAQ (selling points) "Pantheon will not be ‘freemium’ or have ‘cash shops’ -- building your character and advancing in-game will be based on time invested and tactics used, not on how much money the player has in real life."


    This post was edited by Zarriya at November 15, 2015 7:09 AM PST
    • 668 posts
    November 15, 2015 7:35 AM PST

     

    Liav Quoted: 

    "EXP potions don't increase character power. EXP is an arbitrary number that accumulates regardless of player action. Stat modification and non-cosmetic armor/weapons is where the line is typically drawn at pay2win. Bank space is also not character power.

    Cosmetic skins are a great revenue source for companies and it has no real impact on gameplay. The vast majority of gamers purchase cosmetic skins in droves, which leads to more revenue and more quality development by extension."

      

    Player power to me can also translate to player "advantage".  EXP potions give player advantage without question.  Extra inventory also provides advantage since it allows you to stay in a location longer and accumulate in-game cash quicker.  So to me, anything that can be used inside the game should not be available.

    If Pantheon set themselves up like a "Twitch" account type situation, live chat section with a streamer representative, Updates, live play, chat...  I would gladly donate extra dollars there to keep the game cashflow rolling stronger.  This way, even people who do not play the game can contribute to the cause.  I am still thinking about this one.  Twitch streamers are rolling in too much money to not tap into something like that is a missed opportunity.

    Pyye


    This post was edited by Pyye at November 15, 2015 7:39 AM PST
    • 155 posts
    November 15, 2015 1:21 PM PST

    Yeah I agree, exp potions and bags space is 100% an advantage directly in the game.  In a game  like WoW thats not as much as an advantage because youre gonna get max levl in like 2 days anyways, but for a game where maxxing out and raiding in the week isnt possible, quicker exp=no go.  Please dont cash shop us and lose youre seemingly dedicated community.

    • 2130 posts
    November 15, 2015 2:25 PM PST

    They wouldn't be losing their dedicated community though. Cash shops demonstrably increase sales and satisfy a huge quantity of gamers. The opposition to them is generally a vocal minority.

     

    That said, did you skim over the part about XP potions only becoming available a year or more after release?

     

    FWIW, it didn't take only two days to hit max level in WoW until 5+ years after the game had come out. Same goes for EQ, EQ2, etc.


    This post was edited by Liav at November 15, 2015 2:26 PM PST
    • 107 posts
    November 15, 2015 3:11 PM PST

    Maybe I am part of the "vocal minority" but, I have zero desire to see a cash shop. I'd happily pay $25/month to offset that. Maybe there are some items that would work like armor dye or the like (but hopefully it woud still require a crafter so it would basically just be like buying a component from a vendor). Just spitballing here. Good lord hurry up, we need this game so we are on the forum less!

    • 155 posts
    November 15, 2015 6:27 PM PST

    Liav said:

    They wouldn't be losing their dedicated community though. Cash shops demonstrably increase sales and satisfy a huge quantity of gamers. The opposition to them is generally a vocal minority.

     

    That said, did you skim over the part about XP potions only becoming available a year or more after release?

     

    FWIW, it didn't take only two days to hit max level in WoW until 5+ years after the game had come out. Same goes for EQ, EQ2, etc.

    I have 15 friends that are joining the game, 8 being IRL, and they are 100% against cash shops. I literally know not a single person who wants cash shops.

    • 668 posts
    November 15, 2015 6:49 PM PST

    Cash shops usually follow a FTP game and Pantheon is not going to be modeled after FTP.  Since it will be catered to a specific player, I would have no issues paying a premium monthly fee to keep game flowing.  Sounds like they know how many subscriptions they need to keep game rolling and it is not near as many as bigger MMOs.  Crosses fingers...

    • 2130 posts
    November 15, 2015 7:59 PM PST

    Taledar said:

    I have 15 friends that are joining the game, 8 being IRL, and they are 100% against cash shops. I literally know not a single person who wants cash shops.

    On the other side of the spectrum, literally every friend of mine is cool with cash shops as long as they aren't pay2win. Anecdotes are fun.

    Pyye said:

    Cash shops usually follow a FTP game and Pantheon is not going to be modeled after FTP.  Since it will be catered to a specific player, I would have no issues paying a premium monthly fee to keep game flowing.  Sounds like they know how many subscriptions they need to keep game rolling and it is not near as many as bigger MMOs.  Crosses fingers...

    Kilsin already stated that a cash shop may or may not exist at some point, and that it's up in the air right now. Regardless of business model, it's supplemental income for VR. Even paying a premium subscription likely wouldn't outweigh the revenue increase of a solid cash shop.

    It might be a good idea to sit down and actually look at our justifications for our positions on the argument as opposed to just saying "it's bad" and "it's good".

    1. Cash shops demonstrably generate more revenue than a purely subscription based model.
    2. Cash shops do not inherently have to provide pay2win elements to be successful. Cash shops becoming pay2win are dependent upon the people running the game. I don't know anything about any of the people running VR, aside from a little bit about Brad, who doesn't seem to be in a position of financial management. In short, if the higherups at VR got greedy, a few complaints on the forums is not going to be enough to stop a ridiculous over-the-top cash shop from popping up. I find this unlikely though given "the vision".
    3. Any worries about experience potions or other such advantages causing a problem can be fully mitigated by delaying their addition to the cash shop for a decent predetermined time after release. I guarantee a sizable portion of the playerbase will be max level in short order (<2-3 weeks) regardless of game difficulty. I think delaying the addition of exp pots by 6 months after release is a viable option.

    TL;DR: Most criticism against monetization is directed at the revenue model itself as opposed to the people who dictate the revenue model. A gun doesn't pull its own trigger, and a cash shop doesn't sell endgame raid gear unless upper management tells the developers to do so.