sandbox , but okay with some themepark .
I am okay at beginning levels being handheld , many have never played Mmo's.. But after level 5-10 I want to figure the world out on my own to include entering a lvl 50 area at lvl 10 and getting my rear end handed to me on a silver platter ...
I will sit on the fence and see which way the egg falls :):):)
I don't want a true sandbox world. Because as soon as you give people total freedom to change the world around them, someone WILL come and abuse the system. So for the world, I want a fixed approach. What you can do in this world however, where you go and when, should be totally your decision.
So I guess...for the world, I want a themepark. For my journey through the world, I want the freedom of the sandbox :)
That's a tough question because over the years, sandbox has become less and less until it literally means nothing but terrain and skill systems. Any "content" on top of said terrain and skill systems has somehow been branded themepark (which is just ridiculous).
By that definition, I want a hybrid.
The truth is, I want a sandbox game with content. Content created by developers makes the game no less sandbox than the terrain or skill systems. Its all about the choices you have in said world. If you see boats in the port and seas to traverse, ideally I'd like to be able to both build boats or captain a ship. In said world, I want there to be enough skill systems, jobs, trades, classes etc to basically be anything you want to be. Because that level of depth is hard to both implement and balance, I am satisfied with a world that provides me with places to explore and ways to progress (content). Meanwhile, I'd like to see more depth added to the rest of the world in the form of trades and other forms of gameplay (like a captain of the high seas).
Unfortunately the only way to have a "true" sandbox game is if levels didn't exist. The only way for an MMORPG with levels to be designed is if the zones are themeparked, but that doesn't mean the playstyle has to be themeparked.
Take EQ vs WOW in terms of zones:
WOW: Zone_A level 1-10->Zone_B 10-15 -> Zone_C 15-20...
EQ: Zone_A level 1-12 (With some higher level camps) Zone_B/C/D/E level 12-20 (With some higher level camps)
Now, in parallel they're both themeparked by their level mobs, because they have to be, but the difference between the two are the playstyles.
WOW: Zone_A Questhub_A (Final quests leads you to) -> Questhub_B (Final quests leads you to) -> Questhub_C
EQ: Zone_A You find Quest_A... That's about it. You aren't told where to find the mob, or how to get the item (With a map and quest markers at least). You're thrown into the world to explore. This is the sandbox playstyle that has diminished from all of the modern MMORPGs.
So many times in MMORPGs today (WOW especially) if I didn't have a quest to kill a specific NPC. I wouldn't bother exploring the dungeon any farther. I could be in the middle of cave, out in a secluded forest, but once I found that named quest NPC I would leave the remainder of the cave unexplored... Because I learned that with the themeparked playstyle, there was no reason for me to bother exploring.
So in summary, I agree with Sarim, I would love to see a sandbox playstyle inside of a themeparked world... To an extent :D
I would like to see a Sandbox with "meaningful" quests. If I never see a quest that is "Kill X of Y Creature" again i'll be happy. Quests should take a few hours to complete. Quests that give very good rewards should take days and require group content to complete. Themeparks are ok, as long as the quests are meaningful and I don't feel like im on rails being lead down a meaningless path designed solely to make the game more accessible. Oh another thing, I hate forced tutorials at the beginning of games. Put in a help button with a knowledgebase, and the option to turn on Hints... Let the game retain some wonder.
If we are using sandbox as in permanent changes to the environment/landscape, then no, theme park. If we are using sandbox as open world, no set path, play your toon how you like instead of chasing down the next hub of exclamation points on the map, then yes, sandbox.
Sandbox a la Minecraft simply cannot work in an MMO. Hell, it barely works in Minecraft on hosted servers once the population goes past "the 3 people I know and trust." Sims Online is a fine primer on why. Give griefers the power to wreck the world and maintain it in a pure rubble type wasteland, and that is exactly what it will be within an hour of launch until you change the sandbox rules or unplug the servers. Griefers live to grief, and griefers in a pure sandbox MMO will destroy the environment all the way to the bedrock just to make sure you have no fun. That's why they are called griefers.
But open world, thousands of quests for faction, diplomacy, religion, money, exp and gear....and you play your character however you like? Sure. Make me actually read dialogue and talk to every NPC to piece things together instead of holding my hand? Sure. No rails, no guides, just log in and start learning the world. If you need spoilers, get them with /shout and /ooc in your chat window. Again, sign me up.
Sandbox. All in. Every other game in existence practically is a themepark. Sometimes with sandbox elements. There's no need for a little bit of themepark. I've had more than enough of it over the past decade. Make a world, give it the needed systems, turn it on. This will only work if it's a world though, not just a map and landscape.
The only way a sandbox works is if you make a gameworld that even if no players existed, it will would still make sense. Otherwise, we're doing it wrong.
As I posted on Facebook:
ThemeBox. Gently direct where to go but once you get there you're free to do what you want. Lower levels can travel to higher level zones but it may not work out for them ;)
Also, EQ's habit of throwing in high level mobs that will beat your arse just because they can is a great thing - a way to remind players they're never truly safe.
Interesting replies! I expected a lot more negativity towards the themepark side of things, but it is great to see that you all, for the most part, understand that themepark isn't the big bad word everyone makes it out to be :)
For clarification:
Sandbox = An empty box (the world), filled with sand (environment, NPCs etc.), you are provided with a bucket and spade (combat mechanics and crafting) and it is up to you to set out, explore and make your own fun, it's a harsh and cruel world that relies on your own imagination and creativity to keep you interested.
Themepark = Specific rides or linear paths to follow, things like quests, dungeons, AAs, leveling system etc. are all developer created features or paths to follow if you choose to.
Combining both like we had in EQ and VG can turn our experiences into something truly special but if it isn't handled properly and we are forced down paths with our freedom taken away, it can have a much more negative impact on the player and the experience overall, a lot of games recently lean too heavily on the themepark side of things and end up pushing players away, while if you go completely the opposite way and lean too heavily on the sandbox side it can also have the same effect, a fine balance of both is what makes a great MMORPG in my opinion, but everyone has different likes/dislikes and some like more themepark while others like more sandbox, so it's hard to hit that nice middle point that allows many people to enjoy the game and play it the way that they like.
I am confident that our team can find that sweet spot, though :)
For starting cities I like the idea of a split city. Like in Qeynos, there was the dock area, with that freak of a dwarf Tumpy (after a while he would randomly start attacking me lol) and the second part where fippy would sometimes storm in through the gates. Or like freeport, dock side and dessert side with eerie questionable faction just out of sight. E commons with he tunnel bazaar and the invisible high level air elemental! Paineel, newbie yard and toxx/warrens. Odus, Docks with sharks and mail delivery, and then toxx. I like questing, I like long drawn out, takes-forever quests.I like the idea of being a newbie and running with a group against the walls of the second part of the city to get to the outside, while higher level players are managing a Sandbox orc war/attack at the city gates. While hearing shouts " look out! you shouldn't be here!" while we hurry just to get outside and camp some snakes or bats, maybe head into those sewers or scope out the direction to that dungeon, for when we are a bit stronger.
Kilsin said:Interesting replies! I expected a lot more negativity towards the themepark side of things, but it is great to see that you all, for the most part, understand that themepark isn't the big bad word everyone makes it out to be :)
For clarification:
Sandbox = An empty box (the world), filled with sand (environment, NPCs etc.), you are provided with a bucket and spade (combat mechanics and crafting) and it is up to you to set out, explore and make your own fun, it's a harsh and cruel world that relies on your own imagination and creativity to keep you interested.
Themepark = Specific rides or linear paths to follow, things like quests, dungeons, AAs, leveling system etc. are all developer created features or paths to follow if you choose to.
Combining both like we had in EQ and VG can turn our experiences into something truly special but if it isn't handled properly and we are forced down paths with our freedom taken away, it can have a much more negative impact on the player and the experience overall, a lot of games recently lean too heavily on the themepark side of things and end up pushing players away, while if you go completely the opposite way and lean too heavily on the sandbox side it can also have the same effect, a fine balance of both is what makes a great MMORPG in my opinion, but everyone has different likes/dislikes and some like more themepark while others like more sandbox, so it's hard to hit that nice middle point that allows many people to enjoy the game and play it the way that they like.
I am confident that our team can find that sweet spot, though :)
EverQuest wasn't designed as a themepark style MMORPG, the world just had certain bottlenecks & limitation starting out, given the technology/resources at the time. I should think Pantheon will be waaaay more "sandbox" style of a MMORPG than both VG or EQ. I hope this game is not being rushed.
I really hope Visionary Realms is thinking far out ahead towards expansion packs, and player/guild housing. Player boats, etc..
Dullahan said:That's a tough question because over the years, sandbox has become less and less until it literally means nothing but terrain and skill systems. Any "content" on top of said terrain and skill systems has somehow been branded themepark (which is just ridiculous).
By that definition, I want a hybrid.
The truth is, I want a sandbox game with content. Content created by developers makes the game no less sandbox than the terrain or skill systems. Its all about the choices you have in said world. If you see boats in the port and seas to traverse, ideally I'd like to be able to both build boats or captain a ship. In said world, I want there to be enough skill systems, jobs, trades, classes etc to basically be anything you want to be. Because that level of depth is hard to both implement and balance, I am satisfied with a world that provides me with places to explore and ways to progress (content). Meanwhile, I'd like to see more depth added to the rest of the world in the form of trades and other forms of gameplay (like a captain of the high seas).
What Dulla said, love when i can get lazy in these threads :)
Hieromonk said:Kilsin said:Interesting replies! I expected a lot more negativity towards the themepark side of things, but it is great to see that you all, for the most part, understand that themepark isn't the big bad word everyone makes it out to be :)
For clarification:
Sandbox = An empty box (the world), filled with sand (environment, NPCs etc.), you are provided with a bucket and spade (combat mechanics and crafting) and it is up to you to set out, explore and make your own fun, it's a harsh and cruel world that relies on your own imagination and creativity to keep you interested.
Themepark = Specific rides or linear paths to follow, things like quests, dungeons, AAs, leveling system etc. are all developer created features or paths to follow if you choose to.
Combining both like we had in EQ and VG can turn our experiences into something truly special but if it isn't handled properly and we are forced down paths with our freedom taken away, it can have a much more negative impact on the player and the experience overall, a lot of games recently lean too heavily on the themepark side of things and end up pushing players away, while if you go completely the opposite way and lean too heavily on the sandbox side it can also have the same effect, a fine balance of both is what makes a great MMORPG in my opinion, but everyone has different likes/dislikes and some like more themepark while others like more sandbox, so it's hard to hit that nice middle point that allows many people to enjoy the game and play it the way that they like.
I am confident that our team can find that sweet spot, though :)
EverQuest wasn't designed as a themepark style MMORPG, the world just had certain bottlenecks & limitation starting out, given the technology/resources at the time. I should think Pantheon will be waaaay more "sandbox" style of a MMORPG than both VG or EQ. I hope this game is not being rushed.
I really hope Visionary Realms is thinking far out ahead towards expansion packs, and player/guild housing. Player boats, etc..
EQ was designed with quests, raiding, dungeons, leveling system, crafting all in mind, so it did intend to have themepark elements implemented into the sandbox world from the start and that is not a bad thing at all in my opinion.
We are certainly looking ahead in terms of the future of Pantheon and creating the game with the intent of building on it for a long tome to come, I am not sure what would give you the worry or concern that we are rushing, but that is certainly not the case, we have realistic goals set and are steadily and consistently achieving those goals, the game will be released when it is ready to be released and not before. :)
Well.. do not confuse story telling & world lore, as themepark.
Quests & lore are nothing more than a backdrop to the game world. A reason for being in a place & time. Not all people should be on a quest. They should be hard to find.
Even so... "themepark" implies game assets that are derived, to hold large quantities of people's time in one area because of limited assets, or backdrop, or time, or lack of game world size, budget, etc.
Themepark essentially means, dev funnelled content.
Coincidentally, a true sandbox will have many themes... called sandparks.
Hieromonk said:Well.. do not confuse story telling & world lore, as themepark.
Quests & lore are nothing more than a backdrop to the game world. A reason for being in a place & time. Not all people should be on a quest. They should be hard to find.
Even so... "themepark" implies game assets that are derived, to hold large quantities of people's time in one area because of limited assets, or backdrop, or time, or lack of game world size, budget, etc.
Themepark essentially means, dev funnelled content.
Coincidentally, a true sandbox will have many themes... called sandparks.
Exactly. Themepark is much more restrictive. There was never anything to say that developers couldn't have lore and developer content and cities. UO had all of those things, yet is held up as one of the greatest examples of a sandbox game.
EQ did have limitations, as adventuring was the most supported type of gameplay. That said, especially early on, EQ had many players that were not simply there to farm dungeons or defeat raid mobs. There were people completely immersed in the world, roleplay, social activities, trading and basically living the game. Still even with its open ended nature, EQ is still lumped in with the themeparks of today, even though it was felt vastly more sandbox to those who actually played it.
There will have to be many more forms of gameplay than EQ and Vanguard for Pantheon to ever be considered a sandbox game.
Sandbox/themepark are not two completely separared styles. It's simply a gray scale. It tends toward "themepark" when the player is being guided on rails 95% of the time, when it's "do this quest" now go there, now do that quest, now go there" and everyone follows the path, sees the sights, goes on rides, there's no real spontaneity, no "let's go to that dark castle off the beaten path, it looks interesting".
A full sandbox, on the other side, lacks purpose. If anything is doable, any direction possible, where do I go? If all directions are the same as any other, then this place must yield the same gear as all others - maybe painted blue for difference - and that place must yield that same gear, painted pink for difference.
Where there is no purpose, there is no real accomplishment, no story, just mindless accumulation of xp and loot. I might as well play randomly generated zones.
EQ 1 did it right. A sandbox world, with rich content and story. Yes, if you go on a quest, if you follow the story line, it determines what you do, to some extent. Remember the Ring War quest series in Velious? But a good sandbox world offers a lot of places where you can go inbetween parts of your quests. And a good theme park offers a lot of stories, a lot of quests, without forcing you into them, and without forcing you into a single path where you do it all in one specific order.
I don't mind story and lore driving quests, but I'm over quest hubs and instanced dungeons. If I go into a dungeon I want it to be a dungeon crawl maybe with quest goals, but open and more of an exploration.
I guess I don't like how modern MMO's have you signing up for instanced dungeons that are allways exactly the same each time you run it. I mean why have a world, you might as well just have a lobby were you just wait for dungoen runs to pop.
Thankfully Pantheon seems to be stepping away from instances and the idea's most people associate with Themepark's.
I really feel like the Theme Park MMO's has realy killed the whole essence of MMO's. Because of theme park MMO's we no longer had to run places, kill open world bosses, find XP camps, talk to anyone in the game etc. It just killed community as a whole and i think the biggest reason for that was instances. I hope this is the turning point in MMO's to go back to sandbox worlds and do away with instances, they just truly killed the MMO's genre since WoW came out. Say no to loading screens!
I prefer sandbox style similar to what we had in EQ, with fewer but longer quests you could do to earn specific pieces of gear, gain access to certain areas, epic quests, etc. Primary means of exp and aquiring gear would be killing mobs in a group, with no breadcrumb trail to guide players where to go at what levels. Thats not to say there shouldnt be clues planted throughout the game, but please... no in-game mail messages telling me where to go or popup windows suggesting zones. Let us figure it out on our own or rely on the community for suggestions. It was very very common in EQ for players to ask in /ooc where they should go for exp/grouping at XX level. Questions like these were always answered, and followed up with a second question: "How do I get there?" To which players would respond offering ports, etc. This was absolutely the norm in EQ. A small thing, but every little bit of community-building helps.
I will literally cry if this game winds up as a themepark. Everything we know about Pantheon so far screams group-based sandbox. One last point: Creating some solo content is probably required, but please remember that players will always take the path of least resistance. Unless you want everyone soloing to max level, that path will need to be harder/longer/less rewarding than grouping.
I prefer a style where you can get with your friends and say, "okay so (name) has to get (specific item) to finish her weapon quest, and then we can go to (dungeon) and try and get the (rare drop) for (name)" Everyone says "sounds good" and we all head out for some fun. You never know what to expect, and usually, the game takes a different turn as you explore or encounter something along the way.
So I guess this falls in line with Sandbox... There is nothing better than to be away from the game, and you can't help thinking about wanting to be in it and going to all the places you need to go for item drops. I am a sucker for "open world" feel and long, meaningful quests that involve rare drops / combines to complete.
Pyye said:I prefer a style where you can get with your friends and say, "okay so (name) has to get (specific item) to finish her weapon quest, and then we can go to (dungeon) and try and get the (rare drop) for (name)" Everyone says "sounds good" and we all head out for some fun. You never know what to expect, and usually, the game takes a different turn as you explore or encounter something along the way.
So I guess this falls in line with Sandbox... There is nothing better than to be away from the game, and you can't help thinking about wanting to be in it and going to all the places you need to go for item drops. I am a sucker for "open world" feel and long, meaningful quests that involve rare drops / combines to complete.
Yup :) me too ! It's crazy the fun you have just getting to your camp site !