I think Velious was a great era of raid dungeons, but the best era of group dungeons was Kunark by far. Velious had large group zones that were fun, but they were even better raid zones. Plus, in Velious, you didn't have a single group of raid options. Three guilds on the same server could take on giant, dragon, or dwarf faction, simultaneously!
But let's talk Kunark, my favorite era:
Danger! It was very dangerous! There was always danger in EQ, but it was extreme in Kunark! I'll never forget checking drachnids when leaving FV for the ones that see invis randomly. Getting to the dungeons was often as hard as the dungeons themselves. You had large over world forts like giants and Sarnaks, then you had hard to get to dungeons within each zone. One of my all time favorites (greatly underappreciated) is the Crypt of Dalnir! It was set up like a raid zone, but was for mid level groups. It had secret passages, trap floors, boss rooms in unexpected places, the works!
Also, I loved trying to get through Dreadlands to get to Karnors. I'll never forget stumbling on Gorenaire the first time. Then, we finally get to Karnors, and wipe at the damn enterance to a see invis mob!
Blackburrow and Crushbone were also fond memories. Camp, crawl, both? Why not! And those were the damn newbie dungeons! I also like Runeye as was mentioned earlier. I always like dungeons with multiple enterance where you can start at one side and plow across.
So what I want in Pantheon Dungeons is:
1) Varied. All levels, all over. Over world forts, castles, dungeons. I don't want one zone for 20-25, 25-30 etc. I don't even want one per race. I want 4 or 5 per level range, and levels taking long enough I could go to all of them on different nights to suit my fancy, peppered all over the world.
2) Hard to get to for many. Maybe not all, but many. The content leading up to it shouldn't always be trivial. Maybe sometimes just getting there is its own adventure.
3) Mix and match levels. Don't guide me around on rails in a common order. Make me find the next zones for my level, not just having it be the next zone over.
4) Hidden higher level dungeons at the back of lower level ones. Or hell, the middle, or near the enterance! Mix it up! Put the big dragon den randomly at some alcove to the side sometimes, not the lowest level. Catch me off guard!
5) Have safe spots, but don't broadcast them. Make the players find them on their own.
6) have dungeons that have many enterances across many zones. Let me pop up in an unexpected exit. I'd love to find a group halfway through plowing from some other zone I didn't even know connected to this one.
7) dungeons don't always need to be underground. PoSky was awesome! So was kedge!
8) leave "locked doors" and "blocked paths" with nothing behind them, so that later new zones can be added to old zones, like what we saw in lake of I'll omen.
9) make some nameds have completely unpredictable spawn times and locations, to minimize loot camping. There should be camping, but I'd rather it be a way to play, not the way to play. Randomize the spawn timer so we can't just count on pH or named ever 7 minutes on the dot.
10) few to no instances. Reserve it for raids only, and for the love of god don't let me fast travel to it. If you must have an instance, make getting there it's own pain. (Think PoFear before the port spell, pretending it was an instanced zone.)
11) big enough it can't be realistically explored in 1 night. I didn't see all of Shadow Tower or Karnors for weeks, months for Kael, velks, Seb or Chardok type zones. I never got to see ToV in era, and went back with friends during PoP era just to see it.
12) make one man's friend another's foe. There should be common enemies, but I also like plowing out a city someone else is friends with (like in Velious era). Maybe I find my quest turn in mob is dead due to a raid!
I think modern MMOs too often have short, generic dungeons you can run quickly then get out. Give me large and winding. Non linear is a plus. If you have a short dungeon with a guaranteed boss at the bottom with guaranteed loot, it's a bit shallow. I like massive, challenging, with tons of bosses and varied rare loot. Maybe the bosses path and are random spawn. Maybe the best boss is a quest spawn and when no one had the quest, its just another room. Those were the days!
P. S. Hollowshade Moore was awesome. With the devs mentioning changing zones and AI, I'd love to see similar mechanics in dungeons. Maybe one castle sends troops to raid a dungeon, completely unrelated to players! Suddenly a castle is ripe for plundering due to lower defenses, or a hard dungeon is a bit easier if you're allied with the NPC raiders! That'd be a fun way to mix things up.
There is a saying that I take to heart as it applies to just about everything in life. "Variety is the spice of life." The greater diversity of content, the more I like a game. If you are going to have diverse content, it must all be meaningful and rewarding or don't do it at all.
Arksien said:But let's talk Kunark, my favorite era:
Danger! It was very dangerous! There was always danger in EQ, but it was extreme in Kunark! I'll never forget checking drachnids when leaving FV for the ones that see invis randomly. Getting to the dungeons was often as hard as the dungeons themselves. You had large over world forts like giants and Sarnaks, then you had hard to get to dungeons within each zone. One of my all time favorites (greatly underappreciated) is the Crypt of Dalnir! It was set up like a raid zone, but was for mid level groups. It had secret passages, trap floors, boss rooms in unexpected places, the works!
Also, I loved trying to get through Dreadlands to get to Karnors. I'll never forget stumbling on Gorenaire the first time. Then, we finally get to Karnors, and wipe at the damn enterance to a see invis mob!
Did you spend much time in Charasis (Howling Stones)? Difficult to get to, dangerous zone-in that was difficult to break, originally needed to complete a key quest to get in (later on key wasn't needed), 4 'sections' (North, South, East, West) where 3 were behind locked doors (the 'key' dropped at the end of the 1st open section), zone full of undead (mostly casters) so lots of dispellers. Rarely when I'd go there did I see more than a soloing Necro.
Kaesora was another one of very well designed (and massive) dungeon. A one-way entrance where past a certain point the only way out was either teleport or go all the way to the end where a tunnel would loop back up to the entrance. Cleric spiders, lots of undead, many roamers. A really good zone for crawling.
Vandraad said:Arksien said:But let's talk Kunark, my favorite era:
Danger! It was very dangerous! There was always danger in EQ, but it was extreme in Kunark! I'll never forget checking drachnids when leaving FV for the ones that see invis randomly. Getting to the dungeons was often as hard as the dungeons themselves. You had large over world forts like giants and Sarnaks, then you had hard to get to dungeons within each zone. One of my all time favorites (greatly underappreciated) is the Crypt of Dalnir! It was set up like a raid zone, but was for mid level groups. It had secret passages, trap floors, boss rooms in unexpected places, the works!
Also, I loved trying to get through Dreadlands to get to Karnors. I'll never forget stumbling on Gorenaire the first time. Then, we finally get to Karnors, and wipe at the damn enterance to a see invis mob!
Did you spend much time in Charasis (Howling Stones)? Difficult to get to, dangerous zone-in that was difficult to break, originally needed to complete a key quest to get in (later on key wasn't needed), 4 'sections' (North, South, East, West) where 3 were behind locked doors (the 'key' dropped at the end of the 1st open section), zone full of undead (mostly casters) so lots of dispellers. Rarely when I'd go there did I see more than a soloing Necro.
Kaesora was another one of very well designed (and massive) dungeon. A one-way entrance where past a certain point the only way out was either teleport or go all the way to the end where a tunnel would loop back up to the entrance. Cleric spiders, lots of undead, many roamers. A really good zone for crawling.
I agree! I didn't hit Kaesora as much as I could have, but I did exp there for a while. I know it was a great zone and leveled my monk there, but in era I think we only crawled it a few times.
Now HS was awesome. I had the ringmail chest from Drussella on my main for a long time! Probably raided CoM and Karnors for my epic in that tunic. I was really glad when the ranger epic 2.0 had you go back to HS.
Kunark was a great era for dungeons as I said before. I hope this game harken back to it!
I hope there will be overland area like dungeons. I like the underground aspect but want there to be above ground options as well. Can be a city or fortress or maybe making your way up to the top of a mountain and can lok down and see other players making there way up as well.
Aich said:I hope there will be overland area like dungeons. I like the underground aspect but want there to be above ground options as well. Can be a city or fortress or maybe making your way up to the top of a mountain and can lok down and see other players making there way up as well.
EQ2's Kingdom of Sky expansion was themed on islands floating up in the Overrealm. It was similar to EQ1's Plane of Sky but on a much larger scale, filled with solo, group and raid content. In EQ1 City of Mist was an outdoor dungeon with multiple levels though some content was behind locked doors. But it was the Gorge of King Xorbb (sp) that was both outdoors and had the claustrophobic feeling of being underground. The narrow yet very tall, verticle walls of the canyons and the large number of roaming Minotaurs around a central chasm filled with Evil Eyes? Scary place.
Vandraad said:Aich said:I hope there will be overland area like dungeons. I like the underground aspect but want there to be above ground options as well. Can be a city or fortress or maybe making your way up to the top of a mountain and can lok down and see other players making there way up as well.
EQ2's Kingdom of Sky expansion was themed on islands floating up in the Overrealm. It was similar to EQ1's Plane of Sky but on a much larger scale, filled with solo, group and raid content. In EQ1 City of Mist was an outdoor dungeon with multiple levels though some content was behind locked doors. But it was the Gorge of King Xorbb (sp) that was both outdoors and had the claustrophobic feeling of being underground. The narrow yet very tall, verticle walls of the canyons and the large number of roaming Minotaurs around a central chasm filled with Evil Eyes? Scary place.
Yeah I been to all of those. Don''t forget Castle Mistmoore. and Crushbone Keep
I imagine 5 doors 4 closed 1 open means 4 groups are in there in a kind of dungeon test to gain new power and maybe some loot. They all still exist in the world and the aviable slots are limited due to just 5 doors so its not really instanced. You have to travel there and check if there still some doors open to take the test. And after doing it magic will prevent you from doing it again for awhile. Plus you need a group all there to even enter a door. That could be a Dungeon Run ppls want to do and it prevents 10000000 instances at once while explaining why it is like it is. If you limit it that way it could still feel special. Problem about instances is there are just too many of them in todays games, and i starts feeling like a simulation (i know it is one but i dont want to feel it like one), if everyone can just open up theyre loot runs as they wish.
By limiting it and giving a reasonable mechanic to it it still feels exciting. It just has to fit in the world kind of ..means if there 100 dungeons and all have thoose 5 doors or even more it starts feeling less exciting :) .
It needs to give the feeling of being sought after and wanted by players means u prolly have to check often to even find a open door or communicate with ppls who done it.
I've heard the devs aren't a fan of camps.. but camps where fun. I've spent many hours getting to know and talk to people. I think they under-estimate them.. or aleast, I hope they have a better method of social engagement instead. :)
But getting back to the topic. Dungeon instances? If you have a bigger enough world/content.. there's no need for instances. Pretty how this guy below states:
Sevens said:Open world deep dark dangerous dungeons please
If you make them crawls they will have to be instances
and they will become speed runs like any other crappy mmo out there.
Make the dungeons big, make them span vast level ranges so when you get to the dungeon you know for the next few days, or weeks you know where you will be hunting. As you hunt in these dark places you begin to develop relationships with the other players in the area and next thing you know....you have an actual community in the game and not just a Que up in the LFG tool, zone into dungeon and then run the thing as fast as possible.
But not so big that it detracts from rarity in gear and name places. You want to remember dungeons/gear and places of interest.
Nimryl said:I've heard the devs aren't a fan of camps.. but camps where fun. I've spent many hours getting to know and talk to people. I think they under-estimate them.. or aleast, I hope they have a better method of social engagement instead. :)
But getting back to the topic. Dungeon instances? If you have a bigger enough world/content.. there's no need for instances. Pretty how this guy below states:
Sevens said:Open world deep dark dangerous dungeons please
If you make them crawls they will have to be instances
and they will become speed runs like any other crappy mmo out there.
Make the dungeons big, make them span vast level ranges so when you get to the dungeon you know for the next few days, or weeks you know where you will be hunting. As you hunt in these dark places you begin to develop relationships with the other players in the area and next thing you know....you have an actual community in the game and not just a Que up in the LFG tool, zone into dungeon and then run the thing as fast as possible.
But not so big that it detracts from rarity in gear and name places. You want to remember dungeons/gear and places of interest.
What makes you say that? They've said specifically that they want the game to be slower paced with more downtime than current MMOs because it promotes the amazing social dynamic that EQ had.
Krixus said:Nimryl said:I've heard the devs aren't a fan of camps.. but camps where fun. I've spent many hours getting to know and talk to people. I think they under-estimate them.. or aleast, I hope they have a better method of social engagement instead. :)
But getting back to the topic. Dungeon instances? If you have a bigger enough world/content.. there's no need for instances. Pretty how this guy below states:
What makes you say that? They've said specifically that they want the game to be slower paced with more downtime than current MMOs because it promotes the amazing social dynamic that EQ had.
The FAQ mentions they style of camping they are looking at.
This is a tricky question to answer, primarily because ‘camping’ means many different things to many people. To some, camping means sitting around in one place for hours on end with lots of downtime and lots of boredom too. To others, it means moving to different locations, establishing a foothold in a dangerous area, and then often having one or more members of the group ‘pulling’ mobs back to that foothold. The developers of Pantheon are interested far more in the latter than the former. If done correctly, this style of gameplay can be a lot of fun and also provide opportunities to socialize. That said, while Terminus is more of an open ‘sandbox’ world and not about moving linearly from one quest hub to another, establishing footholds in the depths of dungeons will not be the only way to advance your character.
Boulda said:Krixus said:Nimryl said:I've heard the devs aren't a fan of camps.. but camps where fun. I've spent many hours getting to know and talk to people. I think they under-estimate them.. or aleast, I hope they have a better method of social engagement instead. :)
But getting back to the topic. Dungeon instances? If you have a bigger enough world/content.. there's no need for instances. Pretty how this guy below states:
What makes you say that? They've said specifically that they want the game to be slower paced with more downtime than current MMOs because it promotes the amazing social dynamic that EQ had.
The FAQ mentions they style of camping they are looking at.
Will playing Pantheon involve ‘camping’?
This is a tricky question to answer, primarily because ‘camping’ means many different things to many people. To some, camping means sitting around in one place for hours on end with lots of downtime and lots of boredom too. To others, it means moving to different locations, establishing a foothold in a dangerous area, and then often having one or more members of the group ‘pulling’ mobs back to that foothold. The developers of Pantheon are interested far more in the latter than the former. If done correctly, this style of gameplay can be a lot of fun and also provide opportunities to socialize. That said, while Terminus is more of an open ‘sandbox’ world and not about moving linearly from one quest hub to another, establishing footholds in the depths of dungeons will not be the only way to advance your character.
As long as there having some sort of social dynamic.. I'm cool with whatever.