One thing was absolutely true about EQ in it's heyday that isn't true for any current MMO - or even current EQ for that matter... It torched your cheerios from time to time, and it was part of the game. Not something the devs would change because it was "too frustrating for players" - but just something that players had to deal with.
In today's games - if something is deemed as frustrating, or not fun, or any number of other things - there is immediate forum backlash followed in rapid form by patches that make that little tiny bit of the broader world less frustrating, more fun, etc...
Only speaking for myself - but I actually (ultimately) liked getting my shorts singed by EQ. Why? Because invariably that amounted to a gauntlet thrown down by the game - one which I would choose to accept head on or perhaps delay until I felt I was better prepared to accept it head on. Eventually overcoming these situations - was REWARDING (at least I found it so).
SO - for any of you reading this thread: Do you want devs combing over every possible moment of your gameplay analyzing it for "am I having fun now" - or are you eager (as I am) to play a game that is unafraid of ticking you off from time to time? What are your personal limits in this regard?
Depends.
EQ was a great game, and so was Vanguard. However, Vanguard didn't really have an appreciable death penalty, at least not on an individual basis. The harshest death penalty would be a group wipe that caused you to have to revive outside of a really deep dungeon, and you'd have to fight all the way back down. That, and the extreme bugginess, were the two most "frustrating" elements of VG.
In EQ, things were a lot more harsh than this, at least back in the day.
In my opinion, I think EQ was too harsh. That isn't to say that a game shouldn't have frustrating/challenging aspects, but I've spent enough time playing P99 to know that I wouldn't really want corpse runs again. XP loss might be acceptable, just not corpse runs.
Liav said:
In my opinion, I think EQ was too harsh. That isn't to say that a game shouldn't have frustrating/challenging aspects, but I've spent enough time playing P99 to know that I wouldn't really want corpse runs again. XP loss might be acceptable, just not corpse runs.
May I ask why you did not like corpse runs in EQ/P99? I wonder this because I liked them in certain situations... And sometimes I did not. Judging from your text above, it sounds like you're kind of on the fence like I am.
I did not like corpse runs when I had to run for a half hour to get back to my body. This was frustrating and wasted my time. Frustration is not a good thing for a game.
I did like corpse runs in deep dungeons or somewhere dangerous when it added extra challenge and finesse to retreive.
I think something in the middle would be great for the game. Maybe have a death penalty but no real "bind locations", but rather safe haven area's for people to respawn to. I would say no longer than a 10 - 15 minute walk back to your body on the world map without taking dungeons into account. If you venture into a dungeon, you should always have that risk vs reward factor.
While some people will think this is "WOWing" the game, I have to disagree. As a Project 1999 player myself, the added walk/boat ride/exp res to fully recover just sucked up far more time than it should have. There should be penalty for death (Exp loss, repairs, and a "walk" back to corpse) but it shouldn't be what your player spends the majority of his/her time doing. After all, a corpse run simulator isn't what we want to play.
Eat me up, spit me out. Please.
Corpse runs... I can only hope they will be in.
My thought on the harshness of EQ is that people have no idea what they want. If they didn't like it so much they wouldn't have played so much and for so long. I feel as though most people don't play now as the game went the easy route and got rid of most of the things that made the game a challenge. There should be harsh consequences for actions.
Without light there can be no dark...
Depends on what kind of frustration for me. When my frustration comes from sluggish gameplay (because of lags) than that will invariably stop me from playing that game. Or when an ingame shop overshadows a game, like I felt it in SWTOR to be the case. Other than that I seem to be quite dispassionate. Don't know if that's a good or bad thing :D
Without a real penalty, there is no real reward or sense of accomplishment. It is imperative that Pantheon have corpse runs, and not the watered down version that Vanguard adopted down the line. You should need to get your stuff if you die.
Likewise, there should be a way for the prudent player to minimize the sting of death. If you are traveling to a new place, you should take the time to find a city or place you can bind at. There was no reason in EQ to ever have to run 30 minutes upon dying. That means the player wasn't playing the game correctly and needed to play better next time.
It's all about finding the right balance. Most of the people on the forums are old school EQ/VG players and want a chanllenge, but that won't be true for everyone. If you make it too punishing you risk running off part of the player base. "Good, this game isn't for them" isn't really the best attitude in that regard. Even a great game sucks when there is no one around to play it with.
Anyone remember the tagline: "You're in OUR world now."?
I always took that literally. If certain rulesets are in place and I find myself overly frustrated with finding a way to beat the challenge then perhaps I'M the one in the wrong place--and it's not the game for me.
It's why I'm sitting gameless at the moment. There isn't a game that satifies enough of my criteria to make me play it.
First, I assume that you're not talking about frustrations due to things like lag, bad controls, camera etc. Those should be fixed.
But frustrations in-game - as in, something is hard and it kills you, or a quest is complicated - there is a very great danger in trying to make all of that smooth and easy.
If everything is easy, everyone will do everything, and everyone will do it fast. No challenge, nothing to compare between players. Everyone will be a hero, and no one will be.
Smooth everything and people will be at the endgame in a couple months. Then the devs will have to either let people finish the endgame in the same style, in weeks, then leave out of boredom, or to make it extremely hard in order to slow them down. In fact they will have to make the endgame harder than in games where everything from level 1 was a challenge - so that the time factor there, in the endgame, makes up for everything from level 1 on. And you will have rather unskilled players hitting max level and hard raid game.
We have seen this scenario play out many times in the past, haven't we?
It's just like trying to fulfill every wish of a spoiled brat. There's no end to it, and in the end all you get is an even more spoiled one. Nor will the whole experience have any value past the immediate fun. Activities that look nice at first, but are toxic in the long run, should be avoided.
Marilee said:
Anyone remember the tagline: "You're in OUR world now."?
I always took that literally. If certain rulesets are in place and I find myself overly frustrated with finding a way to beat the challenge then perhaps I'M the one in the wrong place--and it's not the game for me.
It's why I'm sitting gameless at the moment. There isn't a game that satifies enough of my criteria to make me play it.
Exactly!
Except for bug squashing, a little balancing, etc... the game should be built and the players then must play by the rules. There are plenty, PLENTY, of games out there with rulesets to ease the player through the game. Pantheon has been touted as a 'niche' game geared towards those players who favor a more challenging atmosphere within a dynamic environment where forgetfulness (ie...binding) and carelessness (running through areas twice your level), among other things, could result in dire consequences.
Every argument I have read against 'harshness' of MMO's, especially original EQ, can be torn apart by the simple words 'if you can't handle the consequences, don't take the risks". EverQuest could be played in a pretty safe manner if one took care, made proper preparations, made friends, and so on.
Risk vs Reward. Too often, players these days assume this is something the developers must fix for the player. I find normally the player needs to play the game differently, instead of the game changing to fit the player. It's the only way to really come close to 'making everyone happy'. The game is designed - The player plays the game by the designed rules - The player then changes, or not, their strategy depending upon the outcome of their actions.
Oh noes! A level 60 dragon just walked out of the lake in that level 18 -30 zone? Too harsh? NO. Too fun!
The vengeful soloist/lyricist/composer kept you on your toes in newbie land outside of Halas (barbarian starting city in EQ) and made for a more interesting experience. At level 8 - 10, they kept the players of level 1 - 6 characters awake. Butcherblock mountains - Corflunk, Orc runner, wandering goblin wizards. I could go on and on with my own memories, but you all get the point. :)
The 'harshness' of Pantheon could easily be the 'make or break' point of the game. If VRI reverses themselves and makes moves to produce a 'pop art' game rather than a 'niche' game, it is my belief Pantheon will not survive more than a few months to a year beyond release.
If Pantheon resembles the newer type of game like WoW, in difficulty, players will jump in and jump out. They will go right back to the other 'less harsh' games.
If Pantheon resembles EverQuest, in terms of difficulty, most of the old EQ folks will stay around because we are all searching for a new game in the old style. Add in the scores of folks who will try it and say "Oh, this challenging, community oriented, group based, dangerous, and beautiful game is fantastic! Why haven't games been made in this fashion all along?", and we have a niche game making enough money to pay the bills, offer expacs and updates, and thrive because it offers a home to the players.
Okay, I'm done now. Who wants the pulpit? :)
Frustrations in EQ, usually came from my own stupid actions or impatience. I am smart enough to realize that, but it didn't make it any less frustrating.
Where I did get frustrated at the game was bugginess or lag, which was mostrly during the early years when most of us played on telephone line modems and/or connected through AOL(or similar)
As far as CRs, I didn't mind them to an extent, but there were times I wish there was an alternative method. Particularly the 24 hours item loss. Nothing sucked worse than a late night wipe, only to have to stay up another 3-4 hours to get your equipment back, and having to get up at 6am for work. Fine when I was in my 20's, not so fine now that I'm in my 40's and have other responsibilities.
The graveyards were a good idea when they came about, but I wish they were implemented differently, like maybe you could do your CR to retrieve your equipment, but if you wanted, you could wait 24 hours, and your corpse would THEN appear in the graveyard.
Also, it sucked being a melee class and having to be bound so far away sometimes.
I don't expect the developers to change a core mechanic in Pantheon. I do however expect them to make the game better as time allows. An example of an improvement could be the ability to assign loot rights to a member in a raid.
I want the game to be hard and take teamwork to accomplish big things in game. I want to spend 90% of my in game time playing the game and enjoying myself. I don't want to spend half my time in game recovering from a bad death expierence. I also don't want to spend four additional hours after my planned gaming time ends trying to recover my corpse or a friends.
I have faith in the developers and I'm sure they have had great debates on each and every topic.
So many people complaining about corpse runs or any negative affect that was most likely caused by lack of planning or patience that caused your death.
Sometimes I feel people just want a Wildstar mechanic where they just click rez here and you instantly rez at the spot you died. I get that people don't want to lose their corpse... I think that might be a bit too much. However having to get your dead body after you or your group most likely bit off more than you could chew will teach you patience and how to better your play sytle or strategy.
It will help wart off the zerg mentality that so many games have created these days. I remember when you used to have to think about what you were pulling and CCing. Now you usually complain that you can't pull enough mobs to aoe down at once because they leash.
I'm personally of the opinion that if a rat, bat, skelly, etc doesn't kill me the first time around that the game isn't hard enough. Obviously that's a personal opinion, however it really does help to put you in your place in the world. At the bottom... where we should be.
I'm conflicted about the old school first round of MMOs and the highly social nature they encouraged. Back then, there really weren't that many MMO players, or gaming options to choose from. People were generous and encouraging, and never thought twice about helping a lower level player. Now, there are literally hundreds of different MMOs a player can choose from and MMO players tend to be extremely transient. Society as as whole is far more disconnected and isolated, despite having more "connections" via social media. I also believe the success of MOBAs shows that many players simply want to log in for 30-60 minutes and feel like they still accomplished something.
As seems indicative via the initial launch of WildStar, there simply aren't enough "hardcore" MMO players around anymore to endure extra challenging content and tons of restrictions on what can be accomplished solo. Casual players foot the bills in most MMOs. If the rewards for a few hours of wipes don't make it worth wiping, folks stop playing. I've played many dozens of MMOs and WildStar was the first game I'd ever reached level cap and had run zero dungeons. It was impossible to find groups outside of hardcore raiding guilds (and I couldn't commit enough hours a day/week to be accepted), the content was challenging enough for the average player that many wipes and 2-3 hours of effort were the typical experience for the level 20 dungeon, and many players just gave up on dungeons all together.
Despite enjoying challenges and content where you needed a group or really struggled (or simply couldn't do the content), I do find myself highly appreciating WOW's raid finder which allows folks who don't have much time will get to see a version of endgame. After all, they pay the same subscription fee, so why shouldn't everyone get to enjoy the content they paid for? A game where most content requires groups is in direct opposition to a society that demands as little hands-on time as possible. While Brad mentioned he's not designing a game for everyone, and I applaud that vision and direction, a game has to have enough players to keep the servers running.
For me, if I'm not having fun, I'm probably not going to play the game. If content requries a group, and forming groups isn't too painful, and the rewards for the effort spent feel adequate, then I think there's a good chance the game can be successful. On the other hand, if there's little to do solo, the process to find someone else is arduous at best, and there's never the feeling of reward, I'll continue my journey to find my next "great MMO experience".
Once again, just like in the 'Death Penalty' thread that had so many differing opinions, I'm seeing a lot of different ones here. And once again, I'm confused as to why people want so many things to be made 'user-friendly' is the nice term I will use. Pantheon is going to be the niche game for people who want harder/more challenging/more obstacles - put whatever words you want in there to describe it - gameplay....... there's plenty of games out there for all you guys who want the 'user-friendly' systems.
So my plea to McQuaid and company: Please don't pussy out when people complain! Cause when they threaten to leave due to the game being too hard/too time consuming/too much work and not fun etc etc etc.... you got all of us who will leave the game as soon as the garbage mechanics from today's games enter the scene.
AgentGenX said:
Once again, just like in the 'Death Penalty' thread that had so many differing opinions, I'm seeing a lot of different ones here. And once again, I'm confused as to why people want so many things to be made 'user-friendly' is the nice term I will use. Pantheon is going to be the niche game for people who want harder/more challenging/more obstacles - put whatever words you want in there to describe it - gameplay....... there's plenty of games out there for all you guys who want the 'user-friendly' systems.
So my plea to McQuaid and company: Please don't pussy out when people complain! Cause when they threaten to leave due to the game being too hard/too time consuming/too much work and not fun etc etc etc.... you got all of us who will leave the game as soon as the garbage mechanics from today's games enter the scene.
My biggest complaint about the general forum posts here is that it's basically "EQ did it, therefore this game should do it too". It's nothing more than rose-colored glasses.
While I agree with McQuaid's vision to bring back more classical MMO mechanics and challenge, I don't think it's necessary to rebuild vanilla EQ in the Unity engine to achieve that. There is very little discussion here about good alternatives or new, innovative mechanics - the prevailing mentality is copy & paste.
If you feel that this is a good idea, you should be able to outline why, without falling back on the "if you don't like corpse runs, you're not hardcore enough". Surely we can do better than that, maybe even going so far as to make Pantheon its own game with its own flavor while still retaining the same challenge that we want.
1. What are the pros and cons of the numerous systems that made EQ a hardcore, niche game.
2. Are these mechanics able to be replaced by something more interesting/unique while still retaining the same hardcore aspect.
3. If so, what are these aspects and why should we have them over the classical mechanics?
For the death penalty at least, I'll outline my thoughts:
1. It seems like the desire for the developers currently is to make 2 hours an optimal play session. They have conceded that real life is an important factor to take into consideration. The potential repercussions of having your group wipe in a dungeon 15 minutes before you have to go to work are pretty damning. You don't get a rez and you miss out recuperating some xp (if such a mechanic exists). Worst case scenario, you wipe shortly before you go on vacation for a week. You don't get a rez and suddenly all of your gear decays (if such a mechanic exists). However, it definitely introduces sufficient, if not exceeding, risk.
2. My problem with corpse runs is that they discourage risk-taking. If your death penalty is too harsh, everyone is going to play it extremely safe. If you make your death penalty just harsh enough, then people will get themselves into compromising situations while still having some regret. I believe that Vanguard was too soft, and EQ was too harsh. Video game economies tend to get bloated over long periods of time, so it seems like an opportunity to incorporate a plat/gold sink.
3. I don't know if any of you played EQOA (EverQuest Online Adventures), but I rather enjoyed some of the mechanics there. Gear decays as it's used until its durability becomes 0, in which case it is either a non-damaging weapon or a non-mitigating armor piece, until it is repaired. Now, I think we could take this and expand on it, or either replace it. For instance, when you die, let's say it renders all of your gear instantly 0% durability. If a resurrection spell is used, you gain a percentage of the maximum durability back based on the quality of the resurrection spell. IF you revive to a bind spot, your gear is broken and it'll be costly to repair. This, coupled with an xp penalty, is a viable death penalty to replace corpse runs and still keep things interesting, with the added bonus of in-game expense.
Do keep in mind that I'm not necessarily positing this system, it is merely an example.
Organic said:
I'm conflicted about the old school first round of MMOs and the highly social nature they encouraged. Back then, there really weren't that many MMO players, or gaming options to choose from. People were generous and encouraging, and never thought twice about helping a lower level player. Now, there are literally hundreds of different MMOs a player can choose from and MMO players tend to be extremely transient. Society as as whole is far more disconnected and isolated, despite having more "connections" via social media. I also believe the success of MOBAs shows that many players simply want to log in for 30-60 minutes and feel like they still accomplished something.
As seems indicative via the initial launch of WildStar, there simply aren't enough "hardcore" MMO players around anymore to endure extra challenging content and tons of restrictions on what can be accomplished solo. Casual players foot the bills in most MMOs. If the rewards for a few hours of wipes don't make it worth wiping, folks stop playing. I've played many dozens of MMOs and WildStar was the first game I'd ever reached level cap and had run zero dungeons. It was impossible to find groups outside of hardcore raiding guilds (and I couldn't commit enough hours a day/week to be accepted), the content was challenging enough for the average player that many wipes and 2-3 hours of effort were the typical experience for the level 20 dungeon, and many players just gave up on dungeons all together.
Despite enjoying challenges and content where you needed a group or really struggled (or simply couldn't do the content), I do find myself highly appreciating WOW's raid finder which allows folks who don't have much time will get to see a version of endgame. After all, they pay the same subscription fee, so why shouldn't everyone get to enjoy the content they paid for? A game where most content requires groups is in direct opposition to a society that demands as little hands-on time as possible. While Brad mentioned he's not designing a game for everyone, and I applaud that vision and direction, a game has to have enough players to keep the servers running.
For me, if I'm not having fun, I'm probably not going to play the game. If content requries a group, and forming groups isn't too painful, and the rewards for the effort spent feel adequate, then I think there's a good chance the game can be successful. On the other hand, if there's little to do solo, the process to find someone else is arduous at best, and there's never the feeling of reward, I'll continue my journey to find my next "great MMO experience".
I'll sum this up pretty easily. Ask for a refund now, there is no way this game is meant for someone with your tastes in MMOs. No offense, however there are a ton of games out there for your liking. No idea why you paid to post here to say you want the exact opposite of what VR is offering with Pantheon lol...
Fully understanding of the irony of posting here, I say that you need to be careful when it comes to listening to your forums.
When it comes to game changes, straying from your game vision can lead to it's downfall; I give you EverQuest as exibit A.
Often times the most vocal minority speaks for everyone because they are the ones ranting and raving on the game forums. If developers mainly see that type of post they are probably going to assume that's how most players feel about whatever the issue is.
That's why I think it's important that people speak up when they don't agree, that includes lurkers who browse as guest.
Honestly, you do one, 60 min corpse run.
You do one- 4 hour corpse retrieval in a dungeon (I think in EQ all your stuff stayed on you for 7 days RL time in game? I mean, you culd log back in and sniff around see if anyone was there or headed that way and truth be told, I was nicely suprised- repeatedly- by getting the random prompt for a rez from a stranger who happened to see my body).
You and your group members run in single file quietly, not speaking, stopping while the lead looks around, still not saying anything- no one daring to ask if that is the right direction- once.
Oh sure, while you are running along, on the edge, realizing you have to double-back because THAT way is crowded with high level undead at night, you remember your promise to learn the way through other areas during the day maybe instead of crafting, but not now. How many Freeport to Qeynos races were held, drunk, Level 1, as a result of this common feeling and experience?
For a while I lived in a 6 floor walk-up apartment (I moved from a 5th floor walk-up, go figure, and no they are not "illegal" if old enough) I hit the sidewalk and realized I forgot my I.D./liscense/debit card. In the 10 years I lived there, I did that, once.
Manouk said:
Honestly, you do one, 60 min corpse run.
You do one- 4 hour corpse retrieval in a dungeon (I think in EQ all your stuff stayed on you for 7 days RL time in game? I mean, you culd log back in and sniff around see if anyone was there or headed that way and truth be told, I was nicely suprised- repeatedly- by getting the random prompt for a rez from a stranger who happened to see my body).
You and your group members run in single file quietly, not speaking, stopping while the lead looks around, still not saying anything- no one daring to ask if that is the right direction- once.
Oh sure, while you are running along, on the edge, realizing you have to double-back because THAT way is crowded with high level undead at night, you remember your promise to learn the way through other areas during the day maybe instead of crafting, but not now. How many Freeport to Qeynos races were held, drunk, Level 1, as a result of this common feeling and experience?
For a while I lived in a 6 floor walk-up apartment (I moved from a 5th floor walk-up, go figure, and no they are not "illegal" if old enough) I hit the sidewalk and realized I forgot my I.D./liscense/debit card. In the 10 years I lived there, I did that, once.
Implying that there aren't circumstances out of your control that could cause these things to happen. Not every wipe occurs because someone made a mistake.
Not only that, but "people learn from their mistakes" is not adequate justification for a mechanic.
What is the justification behind corpse runs specifically being a mechanic in a game as opposed to any number of other mechanics?
Liav said:
Manouk said:
Honestly, you do one, 60 min corpse run.
You do one- 4 hour corpse retrieval in a dungeon (I think in EQ all your stuff stayed on you for 7 days RL time in game? I mean, you culd log back in and sniff around see if anyone was there or headed that way and truth be told, I was nicely suprised- repeatedly- by getting the random prompt for a rez from a stranger who happened to see my body).
You and your group members run in single file quietly, not speaking, stopping while the lead looks around, still not saying anything- no one daring to ask if that is the right direction- once.
Oh sure, while you are running along, on the edge, realizing you have to double-back because THAT way is crowded with high level undead at night, you remember your promise to learn the way through other areas during the day maybe instead of crafting, but not now. How many Freeport to Qeynos races were held, drunk, Level 1, as a result of this common feeling and experience?
For a while I lived in a 6 floor walk-up apartment (I moved from a 5th floor walk-up, go figure, and no they are not "illegal" if old enough) I hit the sidewalk and realized I forgot my I.D./liscense/debit card. In the 10 years I lived there, I did that, once.
Implying that there aren't circumstances out of your control that could cause these things to happen. Not every wipe occurs because someone made a mistake.
Not only that, but "people learn from their mistakes" is not adequate justification for a mechanic.
What is the justification behind corpse runs specifically being a mechanic in a game as opposed to any number of other mechanics?
Because everything feels more rewarding when risk is involved. Because it feels better to earn something than it does to have it given to you. Because without risk of death and the loss of time, everything is accomplished easier and faster. Thus, everyone knows everything, effectively removing the mystery from a game that relies on mysteries and the unknown to compel players to continue playing; to experience the unknown for themselves.
Dullahan said:
Liav said:
Manouk said:
Honestly, you do one, 60 min corpse run.
You do one- 4 hour corpse retrieval in a dungeon (I think in EQ all your stuff stayed on you for 7 days RL time in game? I mean, you culd log back in and sniff around see if anyone was there or headed that way and truth be told, I was nicely suprised- repeatedly- by getting the random prompt for a rez from a stranger who happened to see my body).
You and your group members run in single file quietly, not speaking, stopping while the lead looks around, still not saying anything- no one daring to ask if that is the right direction- once.
Oh sure, while you are running along, on the edge, realizing you have to double-back because THAT way is crowded with high level undead at night, you remember your promise to learn the way through other areas during the day maybe instead of crafting, but not now. How many Freeport to Qeynos races were held, drunk, Level 1, as a result of this common feeling and experience?
For a while I lived in a 6 floor walk-up apartment (I moved from a 5th floor walk-up, go figure, and no they are not "illegal" if old enough) I hit the sidewalk and realized I forgot my I.D./liscense/debit card. In the 10 years I lived there, I did that, once.
Implying that there aren't circumstances out of your control that could cause these things to happen. Not every wipe occurs because someone made a mistake.
Not only that, but "people learn from their mistakes" is not adequate justification for a mechanic.
What is the justification behind corpse runs specifically being a mechanic in a game as opposed to any number of other mechanics?
Because everything feels more rewarding when risk is involved. Because it feels better to earn something than it does to have it given to you. Because without risk of death and the loss of time, everything is accomplished easier and faster. Thus, everyone knows everything, effectively removing the mystery from a game that relies on mysteries and the unknown to compel players to continue playing; to experience the unknown for themselves.
This doesn't address the question at hand though. There are dozens of death-related mechanics that could be used to add risk and challenge. Why corpse runs specifically?
It's easy to look at a game like EQ and say "it was successful and in the ballpark of what I want, so we should copy it", but is that really the best choice? I'm not advocating for a game without challenge, I want to know why any given "challenging" mechanic should be favored over another. We need to analyze the benefits and downsides of any given system to arrive at a conclusion about what should happen.
Niien said:
Organic said:
I'm conflicted about the old school first round of MMOs and the highly social nature they encouraged. Back then, there really weren't that many MMO players, or gaming options to choose from. People were generous and encouraging, and never thought twice about helping a lower level player. Now, there are literally hundreds of different MMOs a player can choose from and MMO players tend to be extremely transient. Society as as whole is far more disconnected and isolated, despite having more "connections" via social media. I also believe the success of MOBAs shows that many players simply want to log in for 30-60 minutes and feel like they still accomplished something.
As seems indicative via the initial launch of WildStar, there simply aren't enough "hardcore" MMO players around anymore to endure extra challenging content and tons of restrictions on what can be accomplished solo. Casual players foot the bills in most MMOs. If the rewards for a few hours of wipes don't make it worth wiping, folks stop playing. I've played many dozens of MMOs and WildStar was the first game I'd ever reached level cap and had run zero dungeons. It was impossible to find groups outside of hardcore raiding guilds (and I couldn't commit enough hours a day/week to be accepted), the content was challenging enough for the average player that many wipes and 2-3 hours of effort were the typical experience for the level 20 dungeon, and many players just gave up on dungeons all together.
Despite enjoying challenges and content where you needed a group or really struggled (or simply couldn't do the content), I do find myself highly appreciating WOW's raid finder which allows folks who don't have much time will get to see a version of endgame. After all, they pay the same subscription fee, so why shouldn't everyone get to enjoy the content they paid for? A game where most content requires groups is in direct opposition to a society that demands as little hands-on time as possible. While Brad mentioned he's not designing a game for everyone, and I applaud that vision and direction, a game has to have enough players to keep the servers running.
For me, if I'm not having fun, I'm probably not going to play the game. If content requries a group, and forming groups isn't too painful, and the rewards for the effort spent feel adequate, then I think there's a good chance the game can be successful. On the other hand, if there's little to do solo, the process to find someone else is arduous at best, and there's never the feeling of reward, I'll continue my journey to find my next "great MMO experience".
I'll sum this up pretty easily. Ask for a refund now, there is no way this game is meant for someone with your tastes in MMOs. No offense, however there are a ton of games out there for your liking. No idea why you paid to post here to say you want the exact opposite of what VR is offering with Pantheon lol...
The FAQ is ripe with the devs mentioning specific opportunities to ditch old-school pain points as well as bring back the social climate many of us appreciated from MMOs in the 1990s and early 2000s. I don't see how any of my points are in conflict with what the FAQ states or with what the various interviews have mentioned thus far. In fact, those are many of the same things the devs say they're discussing and grappling with in order to make this game. After all, "Our intention [...] is not to bring back ‘everything’ from the old days, but rather to pick and choose what makes sense and what is needed to make a fun, social, cooperative, and challenging game."
That said, the devs have mentioned they want players to be able to log in and play for a couple of hours, making use of tools that will facilitate grouping. That's not a 40+ hour gaming week. That's not hour-long corpse runs. That's not sitting in general chat for hours spamming to find people to run a dungeon with "sometime tonight". That sounds like a pretty reasonable expression of what many gamers have available nowadays. No one plays a game they don't enjoy, regardless of how rose-colored their glasses are. Challenging content isn't fun-free by virtue of being challenging. However, until we all see what the content actually looks like, it's impossible to know if it will be enjoyable.
We're all here because something about what we've seen thus far has made us curious enough to sign up and become involved. I appreciate that your views differ from mine.
Organic said:
Niien said:
Organic said:
I'm conflicted about the old school first round of MMOs and the highly social nature they encouraged. Back then, there really weren't that many MMO players, or gaming options to choose from. People were generous and encouraging, and never thought twice about helping a lower level player. Now, there are literally hundreds of different MMOs a player can choose from and MMO players tend to be extremely transient. Society as as whole is far more disconnected and isolated, despite having more "connections" via social media. I also believe the success of MOBAs shows that many players simply want to log in for 30-60 minutes and feel like they still accomplished something.
As seems indicative via the initial launch of WildStar, there simply aren't enough "hardcore" MMO players around anymore to endure extra challenging content and tons of restrictions on what can be accomplished solo. Casual players foot the bills in most MMOs. If the rewards for a few hours of wipes don't make it worth wiping, folks stop playing. I've played many dozens of MMOs and WildStar was the first game I'd ever reached level cap and had run zero dungeons. It was impossible to find groups outside of hardcore raiding guilds (and I couldn't commit enough hours a day/week to be accepted), the content was challenging enough for the average player that many wipes and 2-3 hours of effort were the typical experience for the level 20 dungeon, and many players just gave up on dungeons all together.
Despite enjoying challenges and content where you needed a group or really struggled (or simply couldn't do the content), I do find myself highly appreciating WOW's raid finder which allows folks who don't have much time will get to see a version of endgame. After all, they pay the same subscription fee, so why shouldn't everyone get to enjoy the content they paid for? A game where most content requires groups is in direct opposition to a society that demands as little hands-on time as possible. While Brad mentioned he's not designing a game for everyone, and I applaud that vision and direction, a game has to have enough players to keep the servers running.
For me, if I'm not having fun, I'm probably not going to play the game. If content requries a group, and forming groups isn't too painful, and the rewards for the effort spent feel adequate, then I think there's a good chance the game can be successful. On the other hand, if there's little to do solo, the process to find someone else is arduous at best, and there's never the feeling of reward, I'll continue my journey to find my next "great MMO experience".
I'll sum this up pretty easily. Ask for a refund now, there is no way this game is meant for someone with your tastes in MMOs. No offense, however there are a ton of games out there for your liking. No idea why you paid to post here to say you want the exact opposite of what VR is offering with Pantheon lol...
The FAQ is ripe with the devs mentioning specific opportunities to ditch old-school pain points as well as bring back the social climate many of us appreciated from MMOs in the 1990s and early 2000s. I don't see how any of my points are in conflict with what the FAQ states or with what the various interviews have mentioned thus far. In fact, those are many of the same things the devs say they're discussing and grappling with in order to make this game. After all, "Our intention [...] is not to bring back ‘everything’ from the old days, but rather to pick and choose what makes sense and what is needed to make a fun, social, cooperative, and challenging game."
That said, the devs have mentioned they want players to be able to log in and play for a couple of hours, making use of tools that will facilitate grouping. That's not a 40+ hour gaming week. That's not hour-long corpse runs. That's not sitting in general chat for hours spamming to find people to run a dungeon with "sometime tonight". That sounds like a pretty reasonable expression of what many gamers have available nowadays. No one plays a game they don't enjoy, regardless of how rose-colored their glasses are. Challenging content isn't fun-free by virtue of being challenging. However, until we all see what the content actually looks like, it's impossible to know if it will be enjoyable.
We're all here because something about what we've seen thus far has made us curious enough to sign up and become involved. I appreciate that your views differ from mine.
I'm sorry to say that all I can hope for is that you're wrong. In my humble opinion playing any MMORPG for a couple hours won't have the overwhelming sense of accomplishment that games like EQ gave you won't be there. That's why I believe time has to be a required factor as that's the most expensive currency people have to offer to a game. If it's not required then people will then get bored and leave as there's nothing tying them to the game.
If this wasn't the case, then one of the 20 other free to play mmos that offer instant groups and 30 minute dungeons would be filled with these gamers you speak of. Also, there would be no reason why you would be here trying to turn this into a casual mess due to you personally not having enough time or not wanting to make enough time. Did you ever think that maybe the kids of today might be able to take your place and be the hardcore raiders? Why would you want to be selfish and not let them have a chance to experience that?