One of the best things about Everquest 1 was the notion of a named mob popping and the loot table they had. That being said I never really liked the fact that most of the spawn areas were static in EQ. I think it would be pretty cool to see more randomization of the named NPCs spawn locations within a zone or dungeon. I think there is a time and place for static spawns when it makes sense thematically (D'Vinn spawning in the Crushbone castle), but I think it would be really cool to avoid some of the all day mob-specific camp sessions you see in EQ1 or Project 1999. This would also help people who already have an item from a specific camp from feeling like they have little incentive to return.
What do you guys think? Has this been talked about before? I have been away from the forums for a while so I am sorry if it has.
-Prindan
Lots of the named spawns in EQ1 were random... for instance the Drolvarg Commander guy in Karnors that could spawn from any of the Drolvargs on top of that first bridge.
There often was a named that you could get to spawn out of the trash mobs if you think about it.
I'd like to see a combination of static and random spawns like in EQ1.
Kiz~
Pyzjn was a cool concept, though I never figured out how it worked.
Quillmane was fun! Until I learned that it actually did have a place holder. I was so into it, I must have read theorycrafting on it's spawn for months.
I like that static rare spawns and the concept of camping, or having named mobs that define a grouping area.
Random named spawns along with static named spawns would be my preference. Just as it was done in EQ, with a few more overland raid options. A fun twist to overland raid mobs... when one is killed, maybe different types of mobs spawn in the zone for a period of time, or it triggers a number of named to spawn.
As others have said, both types have their place in the world. Places like the King's room in Sol B, Frenzied Ghoul in LGuk, and Ancient Cyclops in OOT would just be unnamed sections of a zone without those named there. I do, however, feel that there should be dungeons that have random named that can spawn similar to the drolvarg example given in a previous post in this thread.
Other alternative ways to spawn mobs would be via quest, similar to the Coldain War.
Spoken quest dialogue (Slaythe the Froglok in Misty Thicket) is another example, although it's not a good idea to give this type of monster any useable loot --- Only one quest piece of many that are involved in a quest.
Timed monsters are also fine --- Whether its a hard time (6 hours for Hadden in Qeynos Hills) or a time with a randomized element (dragons... could be 3 days plus or minus 6 hours) also have their spot.
Variety is key.
Some named should rarely spawn from the same PH every time.
Some named should be on a random timer with no PH
Some named should be on a set time spawn with no PH
Some named should be able to spawn from a variety of trash PHs in a given zone
Some named should spawn from special events, quest turn-ins, or killing certain trash mobs within a certain time period, etc etc...
As others have said in this thread, it's all about variety.
For me I would prefer , that special spawns related to members of parties and their relevant acheivements.
So spawns that migrate , along with storyline type events so that players get an experience which is not just google and win.
All possible with good design and a bit of thought with todays technology.
With wide open areas , and lots of exploration all of this is possible along with locations that can spawn into the game and be discovered again in a fantasy environment easily feasable.
Standard , static is a little boring these days and has been done over and over ...
Static spawns are great if you could actually get the camp one in awhile. But it sucks when you go over and over, day after day and someone is always there. I guess if it's a quest mob I wouldn't be opposed to static, since it's one and done. But for a mob that people camp just for loot, probably prefer dynamic.
I like the idea of variety and am glad most people feel that way. I agree with you AgentGenX that camps like the Frenzied were permacamped by people who seemed to have nothing else to do all weekend and that was dissapointing. It wasn't like they wanted to wear the item as much as they wanted their 4th drop of the FBSS to sell for the day. I am hoping to move away from that. I am all for long timers or rare spawns, but there should be mechanics in place to keep the solo 60 from dominating a camp for 10 hours at time.
Please don't lock all of the best loot behind named mobs. Any mob being able to potentially, albeit at a lower percentage, drop good loot would be nice, this also helps keep the game fresh and reduces some of the negative aspects of player greed, specifically spawn camping, blocking and stealing.
Linkamus said:
Some named should rarely spawn from the same PH every time.
Some named should be on a random timer with no PH
Some named should be on a set time spawn with no PH
Some named should be able to spawn from a variety of trash PHs in a given zone
Some named should spawn from special events, quest turn-ins, or killing certain trash mobs within a certain time period, etc etc...
As others have said in this thread, it's all about variety.
(Reviving a necro-thread)
I agree with Linkamus, variety is nice on these kinds of things.
One thing that bugged me about EQ was named mobs guaranteed spawn on a server reset. Should be random.
I think combining methods would be good. Static named camps within a dungeon but also allowing rare (1% or so) chance for almost any named in the zone to spawn in place of any regular mob spawn of the same type, so that no one group/guild can completely monopolize any one mob/loot table. Or maybe the named mobs have a 10% chance to spawn on the opposite end of the zone and slowly path to their designated room instead of 100% spawning in the same place.
Would much rather see 20 different spawn points within a dungeon for a variety of rare boss mobs. The more camps which could spawn a variety of rares means more areas for groups within a dungeon.
Outdoor rare boss mobs should be really random and have a variety of them within a region. Only one pops at a time but over time folks might realize their are 5 rare mobs that spawn in that zone.
If we're talking about open world spawns that roam a zone, then random spawn locations seem great.
On the other hand in dungeons, if this game is going to involve camping known locations a la EQ, then I would maybe like to see a small handful of random locations. I would like enough variability that each "camp" that a group can claim involves the possibility of 3 or so named enemies in the area. If all named enemies in the zone can spawn in all camps, then there is less differentiation between them. If named enemies only spawn in one camp, then you need to go to camp X for X loot and this leads to camp value heirarchies and lack of variability. I would like to see the middle ground between those two extremes.
Cynwulf said:Would much rather see 20 different spawn points within a dungeon for a variety of rare boss mobs. The more camps which could spawn a variety of rares means more areas for groups within a dungeon.
But that leads to far less memorable experiences and actually can cause more bottlenecks as players who might have been camping a single camp for a day or two to get what they are after end up taking much more time and space in the dungeon. It's far more frustrating to be after something that is both a rare drop and from a rare spawn when you add another layer on top of that making the spawn location random as well.
It also leads to high/max level players roaming entire dungeons clearing a huge swath of mobs in an effort to get whatever named they want to spawn as opposed to camping a small area with a known spawn point.
AgentGenX said:Static spawns are great if you could actually get the camp one in awhile. But it sucks when you go over and over, day after day and someone is always there. I guess if it's a quest mob I wouldn't be opposed to static, since it's one and done. But for a mob that people camp just for loot, probably prefer dynamic.
Yeah I am hoping they get away from all the static perma camped mobs like EQ 1 had. Random location spawns would be great. That would eliminate the people and guilds that perma camp these mobs non stop and lock out the majority of the server. That is just bad game design. Too few mobs that drop decent loot, that every one knows the location of.
The devs we're asked in a stream about how they would deal with players and guilds locking down all the named mobs. Brad's answer was to have enough content around the world for this not to happen. That sounds good but the spots in eacheof the racial areas will be locked down once players know the one and only spot the mob spawns at. Random location spawns is the only way around this and it's easier to implement and much more enjoyable for the rest of the player base.... the majority.
Camping is of paramount importance to this type of game where a sense of attachment to the world is everything. That said, having multiple spawns with a chance at an individual mob, or areas and not just single points would be okay. That said, why would the Ghoul Lord spawn anywhere else than the throne room, unless you got really lucky and caught him dropping a deuce.
Krixus said:Camping is of paramount importance to this type of game where a sense of attachment to the world is everything. That said, having multiple spawns with a chance at an individual mob, or areas and not just single points would be okay. That said, why would the Ghoul Lord spawn anywhere else than the throne room, unless you got really lucky and caught him dropping a deuce.
This brings up a good point.
Some spawn points make sense. Some can be more dynamic and random. Some can be random by themselves, some shoudn't.
The Orc King spawning in the throne room makes sense, because he's the king. The Orc King spawning in the advisor's room makes sense, because he's the king and sometimes he might just wanna have a chat with an advisor.
The advisor spawning in the advisor's room makes sense, because it's his friggin' room. The advisor spawning in the throne room, along with the king, makes sense. The advisor being alone in the throne room with the Orc King nowhere in sight? That makes less sense.
Kinda sounds like a headache to me.
I'm all for the combination of learnable mechanics (like set spawns) mixed with the unpredictability of random spawn locations and ultra rare spawns, leaning more towards the random. As for mob behaviors, the Guano Harvester has always been one of my favorites - spawns and then roams around invisible - awesome.
I'd love to see the luck/right place/right time factor play an even larger role. The example I often think of is Bilbo finding a ring that in MMO terms would have really only ever dropped for someone 42 levels higher than he was.
The idea of someone hitting the jackpot like that, against incredible odds and sure to flood chat with the rumor of a lvl 8 finding a powerful item has always been one I have loved seeing play out (I guess the closest comparison would be the lower level epic world drops in WoW around launch, and Pyzjn). I didn't personally have luck, but knowing that a mundane task could result in an ultra rare find made everything much more enjoyable.
Anyway, the less static the world is the better, in my opnion.
Nice thread all, been fun reading. Lots of good thoughts/opinions. Just using my experience from playing these games and now working on them, I can say that it really does depend on the boss and what makes sense. Some bosses need their own space so to speak and others don't. I can't drop beans but I suspect most people will be happy with how we're doing it.
I’ve always liked the idea of a combination redeployment points and life cycles over static spawn points and place holders. Redeployment points are locations in a zone where creatures will spawn and emerge from. In a standard dungeon there may be as many as 20 redeployment points. Meta game these redeployment points will become prime camp locations.
Life cycles are exactly what they sound like. While spawned a mob will move from one point to another, often taking long rests to do an action while at the point. The flow is intelligent for that specific mob and possibly influenced by factors caused by players. Each life cycle will have a couple of options of redeployment points when respawning.
Once the mob spawns it walks, unless its life cycle includes running, to the nearest point in its life cycle and does a task which could just be a 90 second wait cycle. After the cycle is completed it moves onto its second location in its life cycle and does another action, or inaction, cycle and moves on. Add as many cycles as make sense for that mob.
In an orc fortress as mentioned earlier I can think of a few standard life cycles and a few dynamic life cycles. A simple guard life cycle would spawn somewhere in the guard barracks area and stand around getting ready for the day running some complaint scripts, he would then move onto the mess hall and complain about the food. After that he could walk out to his duty station to relieve the guard on duty. The guard would wait there on duty until the other guard completed its entire mobile life cycle and came back to replace him. An added bonus this could be a pair of orc guard’s who’s scripting is all based off each other and are linked spawns that cannot be split by character pulling methods.
The dynamic version of this life cycle would be that if more than 50% of the guards are dead and there are PCs in the fortress then the Orcs go on alert and move in groups of 4 rather than 2 and skip most of their life cycle to reinforce the walls.
The Orc King could spawn in the royal bed chambers with his 2 body guards. He could go from his bedroom to his dining hall. From the dining hall he could move to his throne room and sit on the thrown yelling at people and issuing orders. All of the mobs that are scripted to interact with him will have one life cycle if he is spawned and another if he is not. From the throne room he can move onto his advisors then to the dining room and finally back to his bedroom. Most of his life cycle would be based on time of day and his respawn would be game days later.
There are lots of ways you can go with this but making fully fleshed zones with all mobs having life cycles will take a bit more time than just dumping in static spawn locations. The pie in the sky would be for all named spawns to have some form of active trigger or accelerated respawn mechanic for those truely farming.
Trasak
I'm sure it will be more dynamic in Pantheon, but EQ had a fair amount of variety.
Someone mentioned Quillmane above. Oh my, that was complex, but people still worked it out. If I remember correctly: Several randomly wandering possible trigger monsters and then a selection of possible spawn locations? I did quillmane while also hunting three placeholder named monsters with very long known paths. Also checking in on some static spawns of named with nice drops in the area.
Plenty of variation and interest. I'm sure Pantheon will do even better.