I never played EverQuest live, so by the time I had a chance to experience it I was doing so on Project1999. By this time pretty much everybody besides me knew just about everything there was to know about the game, what mobs had what drops and where they were and who their placeholder was, which items were best, what quests were and were not worth doing, and which methods of exp'ing were best etc. While I had pretty much expected this going in, since we live in the time of wiki's and whatnot which give you all the info, it still kinda bummed me out that there was no real mystery left in the world, which kindof ruined the feeling of adventure for me(which is one of my favorite parts of playing any RPG) and made the world feel less fantastic, even though it is still pretty much my favorite game of all time.
So devs, do you guys have any ideas up your sleeve for combating this? Some plan for making the experience less predictable? So players can still be surprised by what they come across, and not know what's going to be around every corner after the first few months?
Unfortunately we will not be able to keep Pantheon and it's secrets safe forever, people will write reviews, guides, tips & tricks videos and create fan sites with helpful veterans giving advice to new players and we encourage that. I think Pantheon has a mature enough community to all enjoy the mysteries and secrets together for the first time but as time passes information will leak around the internet and it will ultimately be up to those new players to either ignore it and experience the game fresh or give in and allow themselves to have many surprises spoiled for them.
At least everyone on board with us from the start will be able to enjoy all of Pantheons secrets and hidden gems together and I think that is a nice reward for being part of such an awesome community and sticking it out with us from the start, don't you? :)
I don't really mind people sharing guides and tips based on their own experience in MMO's. If it is something really difficult, like strategy to beat a dungeon, typically the hardcore guilds will keep that information to themselves for a while so they farm the encounters without competition.
What does bother me, however, is when people are able to reverse engineer the game's source code to reveal stuff that wasn't supposed to be revealed. Like using the game source code to see where certain items drop and their percentage chance that it will drop. Just knowing stuff like that is out there ruins all of the immersion for me.
I don't know anything about how the reverse engineering works, or if that's even possible in a game like Pantheon? I just remember in H1Z1, people would dissect the code after every single patch, and there were maps that would tell you where every piece of loot spawned.
Wellspring said:
I don't really mind people sharing guides and tips based on their own experience in MMO's. If it is something really difficult, like strategy to beat a dungeon, typically the hardcore guilds will keep that information to themselves for a while so they farm the encounters without competition.
What does bother me, however, is when people are able to reverse engineer the game's source code to reveal stuff that wasn't supposed to be revealed. Like using the game source code to see where certain items drop and their percentage chance that it will drop. Just knowing stuff like that is out there ruins all of the immersion for me.
I don't know anything about how the reverse engineering works, or if that's even possible in a game like Pantheon? I just remember in H1Z1, people would dissect the code after every single patch, and there were maps that would tell you where every piece of loot spawned.
Yeah, I dislike that too in multiplayer games but MMORPGs are a bit different and most of the juicy stuff is kept server side, so no one can access it other than our team.
Kilsin said:
Wellspring said:
I don't really mind people sharing guides and tips based on their own experience in MMO's. If it is something really difficult, like strategy to beat a dungeon, typically the hardcore guilds will keep that information to themselves for a while so they farm the encounters without competition.
What does bother me, however, is when people are able to reverse engineer the game's source code to reveal stuff that wasn't supposed to be revealed. Like using the game source code to see where certain items drop and their percentage chance that it will drop. Just knowing stuff like that is out there ruins all of the immersion for me.
I don't know anything about how the reverse engineering works, or if that's even possible in a game like Pantheon? I just remember in H1Z1, people would dissect the code after every single patch, and there were maps that would tell you where every piece of loot spawned.
Yeah, I dislike that too in multiplayer games but MMORPGs are a bit different and most of the juicy stuff is kept server side, so no one can access it other than our team.
Okay great, now you got me picturing all the servers wearing these ... https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/04/fb/95/04fb95d7a5d6bc909dafe94aaaae19d2.jpg
But that sounds good! Thanks for clarifying that concern for me.
I don't necessarily see having many aspects of a game documented in Wiki's or player-made tools as being a bad thing. In fact I think there's room in modern games for an API within the game for doing things like tracking auction prices or even third party tools for asking for help with quests or other ways to build the game community outside of the game world itself. I think there have been some excellent examples of this in the past with sites like EQTraders, etc... One thing to keep in mind is that it's completely optional for you to play with a browser window for doing game research. If players start building out of game maps, you're not obligated to use them.
Where it gets tricky is if you open up an API to link to items and their stats. That mechanism would have to be very carefully crafted to prevent someone from database diving to search for undiscovered items. Typically this sort of access has appeared in previous games for systems such as showing your character's gear, stats and accomplishments through some sort of web interface. Usually this is restricted to official game sites and the wiki or guild engines that are out there have to build their own item databases (along with images) from player submitted data.
Somewhere in between zero access and a back end which leaks TMI there may be a sweet spot. I'd like to see a Pantheon specific guild engine which can automate much of the administrative overhead of tracking raid attendance, looted items, DKP, etc... Whether it gets built by a third party with VRI support through an API or exclusively by VRI itself doesn't really matter. The API approach essentially allows a system such as this to be outsourced to the player community where it is less constrained by staff load and internal game priorities. A guild engine such as this may well include access to some form of restrictive item database since it would be very nice to be able to log into an official Pantheon guild web site as a member and see stats on the cool loot that was dropped and who looted in our most recent raid. I don't see this so as giving up game secrets as much as presenting information in a convenient format. Perhaps items in the database could be flagged that they've never been looted by a guild and thus could not be discovered by probing the database.
Some game information just seemed to be so basic to play EQ that having a place to look stuff up almost became necessary. Recall that the devs neglected to put a "tiny dagger" vendor in Qeynos. Anyone playing an enchanter out of Qeynos needed to travel to another city just to get the reagent to cast their level 1 pet.
I'd also say that crafting recipe sites were another value add which improved EQ, rather than acting so much as spoilers. Even if I'd discovered a recipe the hard way 6 months ago, would I necessarily remember it when I tried to go back later to make that item for a friend?
So I think a modern game needs to recognize that we live in an information age and adjust game mechanics accordingly. "Security through obscurity" is a bad idea when you're talking about keeping information secure and in-game "secrets" are no different. Some examples of how a modern game might adjust or improve on the classic EQ model, thus diminishing the impact of Wiki sites might include:
* Rare mobs should never have a fixed respawn rate and/or a fixed spawn location. P99 with Hadden on exactly a six hour timer is a prime example of how not to introduce a rare item into the world. Pyzjn on the other hand is a far better example with her multiple spawn locs and diversity of placeholders, her appearance feels much less predictable, even though the PH respawn rate itself is fixed. Sitting afk waiting for a predetermined pop timer or killing every mob that spawns on this bloodied rock for the next 4 hours should not be valid methods of finding rare objects in Pantheon.
* Mob camps or gypsy vendors should pick up and move from time to time with some sort of predetermined mob logic. Aqua goblins will move their camp along a stream or to new locations around a lake. Bandits look for various ambush points along roads. This makes maps more about geography, which realistically could be well documented in any world, but mob locations would be impossible to plot and need be discovered any time they spawn or on some sort of cycle. Just because I know the lay of the land, there should still be unknown threats that I need to negotiate in my travels.
* Crafting recipes should be discovered much the way spell drops worked in other games or some other mechanic. It's not enough for the player to know the recipe, the character must know it through discovery.
These are just some examples of typical wiki information that we'd find on the web regarding mobs, loot, maps and crafting. It doesn't invalidate what the third party sites bring to the table but it doesn't trivialize content nor the discovery process in game.
There is a balance to keep when you give information; it can be too much information or not enough. For example, in vanilla EQ spells did not tell you what they did. I think this is a bit too far when it comes to 'keeping the mystery'. Why would your guild master or god not grant you the information of what spells they are teaching you?
However, if people want to invest the time outside of the game to draw maps, take enemy locs, write out quest, etc I'm all for that. Every game, of all types, have players that put in that type of extra effort. It's fun meta-gaming. What I don't want is all of that type of information readily available in game. As an explorer there are some tools and information you are equipped with in town, but anything about what's out there should be a secret -at least in game.
The only real way to combat having everything thoroughly documented is to change things over time. It took many years for most of the stuff in EQ to be discovered, but eventually everyone knew the most important quests, drops and so forth.
I don't think its good to completely randomize a game, especially when certain items and quests are weaved in with the lore of a game. However, a lot of things can be changed. That guard at the gates that is accepting the head of the bandit leader might no longer offer the quest that was the precursor to a major quest line, but perhaps another npc in another city could offer the same item as a reward for another task. That is about the only way to keep it fresh. Its just a lot of work.
I've always disliked the static quest. Which leads to walk-trhus and guides
I would like to see a system, in which the basics of the quest are the same, but maybe who you visit, what you kill, what components you need, could be randomized somewhat, and maybe even randomized by class as well.
So while you and your friend may talk to NPC-001 to start this quest, he tells you to take this note to NPC-002 for further instructions, and he tells your friend to obtain item_A and turn it into NPC-003 to obtain your next step.
Love alot of these ideas, there are definitely some easy ways to keep it fresh as far as what items are dropping and how each quest works so it doesn't get stale and lose the need for adventuring. I know it's easy to say "well just don't look up the wikis if you don't want to know!" and while that does solve the problem on a player by player basis, I'm speaking from a meta-game perspective. This is one of the areas I really hope Pantheon can lead the way in improving, as it's one of the genre's major flaws.
It would take effort, but I really believe it would be worth it in the long run. As one poster said the Pyzjin spawn is a perfect example, just not having the mobs who hold the more sought-after items spawn in the same spot at x time would do wonders in keeping the mystery alive.
A fully randomized game would lose its coherence, suspension of disbelief would be ruined. The world has to stay within certain limits or it'll be obvious to everyone that it's just a random mishmash of the day.
A game has to assume that there will be walkthroughs; the more successful the game is, the more players there are, the more walkthroughs will there be.
Starting with that assumption, the challenge of any encounter must not be merely in figuring it out; it will be negated by walkthroughs.
The challenge of an encounter must be in its intrinsic difficulty for its intended level.
Other than that, you may include changes that are not random but based on game lore. Say, a zone where two factions war against each other. As players help one faction or the other, the faction being more helped would take over camps of the other faction (perhaps make them really visually different mobs), and as these camps are taken over, in them different quest npcs appear.
This is within the limits of the story, and the player can mentally project where will the changes go, in one direction or another, it's not random, and it's affected by player actions.
In the long run, adding new content is the only thing that will really keep the game fresh.
I think information kills MMO's (WoW) at least for me. Playing EQOA was the best mysterious experience I've ever had in an MMO next to FFXI. No map except for the one that game with the game pamplet, having to ask people about literally everything, etc. Part of it was that it was my first MMO sure, but most of it was just the plain lack of information I had available. When it comes to Pantheon I think we will be ok because of the small playerbase, I don't think that there will be floods of info on the game.
Starting a new Character on day 1 of a fresh MMORPG is a glorious thing. I remember March 16th 1999...12:04pm
When even knowing the lay of the land, was an advantage over others. And when you found something new, or odd, or hidden you did not tell others. You led them astray until you could get your friends involved. Sharing information held you at a disadvantage. That is why a network of like-minded people formed guilds. To share in their wealth of knowledge & know how.
I think Pantheon will be too vast for people to ping-pong around following quests even a year after release. Pantheon upon release it will be so much wider than EQ, that people following down the same path will be coincidental, not the norm. Some people will have never been in your neck of the woods for months after release. Pantheon is much bigger than EQ, much fuller, much wider.
Pantheon will be a sandbox and less linear. Spoiler sites will have less meaning.
I imagine that when spoiler sites come online, they will add some comfort to those who fear unknown. But Spoiler sites won't ease the burden on the Player. Most things will be dynamic in drops and spawns. Spoilers can only take you so far. Perhaps near the scene, but not how it goes down, etc..
