I'd like to see potions be rather powerful but have a downside of raising your toxicity levels kind of like drugs are handled in some other games.
These potions should only be made by shaman like in EQ1.
Potions should be expensive to make with components from dangerous areas.
After a potion wears off the toxicity should kick in and you would suffer a debuff at that point.
Otherwise everyone just runs with potions and uses them all the time... if there was a real trade off it would create more strategy around when to use them.
What would you like to see in regards to potions and other expendables ?
Thanks in advance,
Kiz~
Ambivalent on that. Could work, if the downside is rather serious so it's used only rarely.
But then, if it's powerful, you run into the same problem that EQ 1 had with warrior defensive discipline:
If it's powerful, people will use it on raids. Then the raid content designers need to take it into account and make the raid content challenging even when that ability is used (or it would be trivial). Which automatically makes it extremely hard or impossible to do the same content without that ability.
It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy: once the raid content is designed around it, everyone has to use it if they want to succeed at all.
It's easier to design content around a number of smaller abilities stacked together, and a finite number of abilities that can be stacked (eg max 15 buffs) so people can try different approaches, but the total strength is the same.
Come to think of that... potions could actually work in that way. If there is a finite amount of buffs, and EVERY ability uses one buff slot, then using a potion means you can't use something else.
It would give people freedom to combine as they want, and yet you couldn't stack 300 abilities/buffs and make a super-OP raid tank.
If something is going to be powerful, it should have a risk element. Give it a chance of having debuff characteristics that can't be cancelled until the potion wears off, a chance that it may wear off unexpectedly before the end of the fight and a chance that when it wears off it will have another negative effect.
This forces everyone who is using potions to stay on their toes and consider their use carefully. I hate to be totally at the whim of the game's RNG, but this could be scripted with minimal RNG elements. Larger factors could be greater likelihood of a certain potion having a negative impact in cold environments, greater chance if multiple potions are being stacked, etc...
I like the idea of potions, I like the idea of some type of drawback BUT I would open it ot more class's then just shamans.
Ideas
Monk
Shaman
Priest
Druid
(maybe Rogue)
I loved potions in early EQ days on my shaman teleport spells, big buffs... I love the idea of you get this benefit but the cost is x,y or z
Xan
I'm torn on that idea. While I (as a raider in many games) agree that potions are usually just spammed, there's still a lot of strategy involved. In the newest raiding content in FFXIV you quite literally couldn't take down the first boss in the first week of release, without proper and proper usage of potions. I really like that aspect, even though it is a costly one. By making potions rare, really expensive and hard to make, this factor is eliminated and as such, the content will have to be adjusted, so you don't need potions to complete it. This will result in the potential of potions making you overpowered or being meaningless. I don't think any of us want that :o
Drawbacks sound cool in the right context!
i kinda like the idea all except one point, shaman being the only class that can craft potions. crafting should be open to all the classes. class/race specific crafts is probably the only thing in original eq that i hated.
and this is from someone who will most likely be a shaman, and an alchemist (when crafting gets released)
Gawd said:
i kinda like the idea all except one point, shaman being the only class that can craft potions. crafting should be open to all the classes. class/race specific crafts is probably the only thing in original eq that i hated.
and this is from someone who will most likely be a shaman, and an alchemist (when crafting gets released)
I am ok with any class/race being able to pick any profession. I am also ok with certain races/classes having perks for picking certain professions. I hope crafting is done in such a way that it really helps a player driven economy.
I like limited potion use as long as it has in game measure to limit use, like EQ had potion sickness. Potions and elixirs are very popular aspect of fantasy lore and I would expect it to be in Pantheon.
I do wish EQ did a better job with expendables though. Who really used all of the limited charged clicks of their items? I never did. I think item charges are cool but I'd like a way to re-charge them. Giving items for tribute is a popular way to control mudflation. Why not have a tribute system where you turn in items through a local monastery and earn enchantment charges that you can apply to items to gain back uses? It's a win-win.
Kajidourden said:
Meh, I feel like outside of healing potions have become pointless. Food just makes so much more sense as a buff provider over a long period. Potions could be for healing, removing debuffs etc...food for long-term (30 minutes is the generally accepted length in most games)
I also tend to prefer this approach (longer term food buffs and potions for special occasions). Though its not as though the role couldn't be swapped between the two with pretty much the exact same effect.
Kajidourden said: Meh, I feel like outside of healing potions have become pointless. Food just makes so much more sense as a buff provider over a long period. Potions could be for healing, removing debuffs etc...food for long-term (30 minutes is the generally accepted length in most games)
EQ2 had buffs on the food and towards the end (which is what I consider about 1 year ago) the buffs were OP'd on food. But I do agree with Kajidourden that STR, STA, AGI etc. buffs on food and drink work.
However, why is it in MMO's Healing pots and Mana pots are useless? In EQ2 instant health potions were about as useful as a screendoor on a submarine. Why? Give those that are with a crappy healer a chance, make them expensive, rare, longer timers or something but why are they so avoided in MMOs?
Angrykiz said:I'd like to see potions be rather powerful but have a downside of raising your toxicity levels kind of like drugs are handled in some other games.
These potions should only be made by shaman like in EQ1.
Potions should be expensive to make with components from dangerous areas.
After a potion wears off the toxicity should kick in and you would suffer a debuff at that point.
Otherwise everyone just runs with potions and uses them all the time... if there was a real trade off it would create more strategy around when to use them.
What would you like to see in regards to potions and other expendables ?
Thanks in advance,
Kiz~
Do not at all like the idea of potions, but if they do exist your take on them sounds good.
I definitely think potions belong in a game like Pantheon. Not entirely certain what the best way to balance it would be, but giving a strong tradeskill to one class only, really is rather risky.
With shamans having access to damage spells, healing spells, buffs, mana-recovery spells, ressurrection spells and quite possibly haste and slow spells, I don't see how it can be justified to also make them the only class with access to potion brewing. I wouldn't mind if certain classes would be better at gathering certain materials or needing a certain class to use an ability or spell to alter or summon materials, but that's where the limit should be imho.
Kittik said:Kajidourden said: Meh, I feel like outside of healing potions have become pointless. Food just makes so much more sense as a buff provider over a long period. Potions could be for healing, removing debuffs etc...food for long-term (30 minutes is the generally accepted length in most games)EQ2 had buffs on the food and towards the end (which is what I consider about 1 year ago) the buffs were OP'd on food. But I do agree with Kajidourden that STR, STA, AGI etc. buffs on food and drink work.
However, why is it in MMO's Healing pots and Mana pots are useless? In EQ2 instant health potions were about as useful as a screendoor on a submarine. Why? Give those that are with a crappy healer a chance, make them expensive, rare, longer timers or something but why are they so avoided in MMOs?
Maybe so we don't end up like diablo, where a healing class would be useless. Where any class can solo, nearly, anything with enough bags full of potions:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHjjtJuopE0
Solo Lord Nagafen? ... that's just dumb.
Nuggie said:Kittik said:Kajidourden said: Meh, I feel like outside of healing potions have become pointless. Food just makes so much more sense as a buff provider over a long period. Potions could be for healing, removing debuffs etc...food for long-term (30 minutes is the generally accepted length in most games)EQ2 had buffs on the food and towards the end (which is what I consider about 1 year ago) the buffs were OP'd on food. But I do agree with Kajidourden that STR, STA, AGI etc. buffs on food and drink work.
However, why is it in MMO's Healing pots and Mana pots are useless? In EQ2 instant health potions were about as useful as a screendoor on a submarine. Why? Give those that are with a crappy healer a chance, make them expensive, rare, longer timers or something but why are they so avoided in MMOs?
Maybe so we don't end up like diablo, where a healing class would be useless. Where any class can solo, nearly, anything with enough bags full of potions:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHjjtJuopE0
Solo Lord Nagafen? ... that's just dumb.
Eh, not necessarily. I agree, but there ARE ways to make healing potions viable, and to not negate the need for healers. LOTRO had little healing potions. They weren't crazy strong, and they had a decently hefty cooldown timer, but were useful in a pinch. I would usually just save them for a named and pop it once a big crit landed near the beginning of the fight, just for a little added cushion for the healer.
That said, potions overall are a non-issue to me. If they aren't overpowered (sow potions in EQ were fine), then go for it. If they aren't in-game, I wouldn't care either way.
One problem with the EQ potion model:
Making pots became trivial and players would sell them as a business. I could buy a stack of mana pots for 50pp say. The extra mana, extra kills, extra XP and extra loot paid for itself.
I could kill 2-3X faster with mana pots than without. As a lowbie, I was killing trash mobs but when killing them 2-3x as fast I could collect enough garbage drops to offset the mana pot prices, so the 2-3x experience was basically "free"
I would prefer no potions. I think it reduces the interdependence that we are trying to create in the world, at least initially. If you can have things like SoW, Invis, Clarity, etc.. via pots it will reduce the need for others to buff you.
It will be interesting to see how they handle them in Pantheon. I am glad to see the player base think outside the box about how to make them a risk though. Good discussion so far!
Prindan said:I would prefer no potions. I think it reduces the interdependence that we are trying to create in the world, at least initially. If you can have things like SoW, Invis, Clarity, etc.. via pots it will reduce the need for others to buff you.
It will be interesting to see how they handle them in Pantheon. I am glad to see the player base think outside the box about how to make them a risk though. Good discussion so far!
Potions cosat money. Buffs do not. It doesn't really impact interdependence all that much. In addition, I doubt that there would be a "one-for-one" match between buffs and potions. There were some potions, in addition to poisons, in EQ and it didn't "reduce interdependence".
In my opinion, the best way to handle "negative side effects" from potions is to use the fizzle mechanics, with the same chances. It would work like this... If the potion fizzles, it has the opposite effect on you. It was a SoW type potion? You get a temporary slow movement de-buff. It was a mana refresh potion? You get a temporary mana reduction de-buff. It wa a strength potion? You get a temporary reduction in strength de-buff.
fazool said:One problem with the EQ potion model:
Making pots became trivial and players would sell them as a business. I could buy a stack of mana pots for 50pp say. The extra mana, extra kills, extra XP and extra loot paid for itself.
I could kill 2-3X faster with mana pots than without. As a lowbie, I was killing trash mobs but when killing them 2-3x as fast I could collect enough garbage drops to offset the mana pot prices, so the 2-3x experience was basically "free"
This is why I think they should be "luxury" based. Things that are nice to have, like run speed, that don't necessarily give the ability to be more effective in combat(allthough I realize run speed for certain classes is exactly that). No potions that make you regen faster, or do more damage or take less damage. Then it effectively becomes in game pay to win.
An exception to this would be something like poison making that could be balanced as part of the class itself.
As has been mentioned in one form or another by others, potions can become a rich get richer scenario very easily, which again goes back to my "in game pay to win". In some respects people who earn money via buy low sell high, or crafting, or being l33t and selling phat lewtz, "deserve" to be able to buy nice things. They did the work, they did well, they gain power. That's appropriate. I don't love the idea of a system whereby people who had more cash would outright be better than another player as easily as being able to afford consumables. /shrug