Everyone loves a challenge, this community probably more so than most others when it comes to MMORPGs, so in your opinion, where do you personally draw the line between fun and challenge, when does the fun stop and the challenge just become too much in MMORPGs or is there such a thing as too much challenge?
There is no right or wrong answers here, so let me know your take on it :)
I like intelligence challenges. finding the gimmick for the boss, i dont care how many times i die doing it... what i dont like are DPS check type challenges. so i will give a few examples of good challenges and bad ones!
Hegnerian Event from VG - Good challenge it took my party like 3 wipes to find the gimmick so we could damage the boss.
90% of SWTOR Raids - Bad challenges, the only real hurdle to most of that game was the time it took to get the gear you needed to take down the next target. with the exception of like 4 or 5 targets (including both group and raid) it was just Tank and Spank formulated to be beaten by just the skin of your teeth with the gear from the previous tier.
Gawd said:
I like intelligence challenges. finding the gimmick for the boss, i dont care how many times i die doing it... what i dont like are DPS check type challenges. so i will give a few examples of good challenges and bad ones!
Hegnerian Event from VG - Good challenge it took my party like 3 wipes to find the gimmick so we could damage the boss.
90% of SWTOR Raids - Bad challenges, the only real hurdle to most of that game was the time it took to get the gear you needed to take down the next target. with the exception of like 4 or 5 targets (including both group and raid) it was just Tank and Spank formulated to be beaten by just the skin of your teeth with the gear from the previous tier.
Yeah spot on mate, Heg was one of my favorite quest lines/dungeons in VG (just behind the Griffon quest and a few others) and I agree, mechanics and encounters like Heg which had multiple stages and fights to unlock doors, acquire shards etc. were fun, they kept you coming back for experience and rewards while the challenge always remained if you were the appropriate level.
DPS checks can be fun and a crucial part of high-end raiding in multiple boss fights, to help test your raid makeup, group setup and overall DPS output but it isn't fun on every fight at all, two examples of it done right that come to mind are PotA Epic quests, Order and Chaos one was strategy other was DPS burn and griffon quest line, kill the 6 OT knights, some strategic, some DPS burns (Akande) and some both at different stages of the fights. To me that is fun (with a ton of other mechanics and tricks thrown in of course, like mana drains, healing the mob with certain damage type, mitigating certain spells/abilities if mob same class as you etc.) and keeps you guessing and thinking, trying new things, not just mashing buttons and rotations to DPS and move on!
I saw this on Facebook but thought I'd post here, instead.
Tough question because so many people have different thoughts on it, but, my stock answer for the past decade has been:
There is a difference between something being a challenge because you must think, try, and strategize, vs. something being a challenge because it's simply tedious in design. I draw the line when something is challenging because it's just tedious.
For example, EQ2 has quests that are received from books. You read a page, then complete a task, then read a page, then complete a task. When all pages are read, and all tasks complete, the book becomes an item you can put into your house. You've also learned a lot of lore about something in the world or some NPC. Clever right? In theory.
In reality, these are such tedious quests that most people don't bother. Ignatia Cellus writes in her journal that she visited the Bells of Vhalen. But what is the task for you? Kill gnolls on the other side of the continent. Ok next page. Now she is trapped in a cave. What do you do? Kill more of the exact same type of gnoll for no particular reason that you can discern. For 10 pages of this.
Is it challenging? Yes because it's so tedious and has no driving point behind it other than to kill 10 more of X animal -- which would be tolerable if the task tied in any way to the lore presented in the book, but it doesn't.
It would be better if it were challenging because it followed the logical footsteps of the writer, and asked you to seek out and explore new areas, find a particular item in the world or an off-the-path landmark, and perhaps at the end, kill a bad named monster. (Maybe the monster ate our little Ignatia, or maybe he's just a misunderstood troll - who knows, but that's what would be cool to find out as you read each page of the book.)
That is just one example.
Other things that I find tedious would be:
Repeatable quests that exist simply as grind mechanisms. (Put a cap on it so I can feel closure about accomplishing it and move on.)
Excessive spawn points where it doesn't make sense. If I am in a corn field, what would I be fighting? 100 bears? No. A few hawks? Ok.
Quests with zero indication of next steps. There has to be something, some clue, however small, to indicate your next goal. Don't just say "Go find this" without any indication of at least a starting clue. If I need to get a particular mushroom, maybe don't tell me exactly where they grow, but say something like "I've heard that there is an old hag east of here who practices witchery, maybe she'll know about the mushroom." Then maybe "the old hag east of here" is actually very far east, living in a little cabin off the road, that I have to find on my own. OK. But at least I know what I'm looking for.
However what do I like in challenge?
I like to read quest text and NPC dialog rather than be shown a dot or overlay area on the map. Let me find it on my own. Don't point my nose right to it. That takes all the fun and purpose out of reading lore and text.
I like to explore, see below ...
Tasks and quests that force you out of your safe zone. Level 10 delivery quest to village on other side of world? OK! Make me explore and figure out how to get there (just make sure that there IS a way to get there. Maybe I need to ask a mage to port me; maybe I need to find that shady pirate to ferry me; maybe I need to find a gem in that dungeon to give to the shady pirate so he can take me ... etc.)
Spread out, random quests in the world. Maybe that little old lady you helped on the road is actually the starter for one of the best, longest quests in the game that gives you an awesome sword at the end. Let the players discover these things! Not everything in a nice little hub. I don't like quest hubs. Sure, a few quests in a village - that makes sense. But lumping everything in one never-ending linear path ... complete ABC go to next point complete DEF go to next point ... rinse and repeat until you hit Z ... no thanks!
Not overpowered weapons - let me work for them. The problem I see in every game is that with each new expansion or thing they add in super new powerful weapons that are very common and/or they revamp old weapons which totally trivializes content which ruins the early game and then people don't group and then it's just a downward spiral ... this needs to be dealt in very small doses. A +5 item should be VERY POWERFUL and VERY RARE. Not Candyland like in many mainstream games where every item you get is like an endgame weapon. Also, your gear should represent your considerable achievements. So yeah, at level 50 after I slayed every dragon in the world, I should look the part. At level 10, I should look like a poor squire riding a broken down pony, yes. YES I should!
Ok. I could go on but I'll stop now. You get the idea. :)
From a raid and grouping perspective I agree entirely with what has been posted thus far. From a soloing point of view I guess for me it means having tons of hard challenges thrown at me but having many tools to deal with those challenges if I am quick enough on my feet and know exactly which skill to use and when in the blink of an eye. It would be nice if a slightly undergeared person could make up for their shortcomings with pure skill as opposed to just standing there toe-to-toe with a mob and button mashing and only winning based on gear/level/luck.
Merrick said:
I saw this on Facebook but thought I'd post here, instead.
Tough question because so many people have different thoughts on it, but, my stock answer for the past decade has been:
There is a difference between something being a challenge because you must think, try, and strategize, vs. something being a challenge because it's simply tedious in design. I draw the line when something is challenging because it's just tedious.
For example, EQ2 has quests that are received from books. You read a page, then complete a task, then read a page, then complete a task. When all pages are read, and all tasks complete, the book becomes an item you can put into your house. You've also learned a lot of lore about something in the world or some NPC. Clever right? In theory.
In reality, these are such tedious quests that most people don't bother. Ignatia Cellus writes in her journal that she visited the Bells of Vhalen. But what is the task for you? Kill gnolls on the other side of the continent. Ok next page. Now she is trapped in a cave. What do you do? Kill more of the exact same type of gnoll for no particular reason that you can discern. For 10 pages of this.
Is it challenging? Yes because it's so tedious and has no driving point behind it other than to kill 10 more of X animal -- which would be tolerable if the task tied in any way to the lore presented in the book, but it doesn't.
It would be better if it were challenging because it followed the logical footsteps of the writer, and asked you to seek out and explore new areas, find a particular item in the world or an off-the-path landmark, and perhaps at the end, kill a bad named monster. (Maybe the monster ate our little Ignatia, or maybe he's just a misunderstood troll - who knows, but that's what would be cool to find out as you read each page of the book.)
That is just one example.
Other things that I find tedious would be:
Repeatable quests that exist simply as grind mechanisms. (Put a cap on it so I can feel closure about accomplishing it and move on.)
Excessive spawn points where it doesn't make sense. If I am in a corn field, what would I be fighting? 100 bears? No. A few hawks? Ok.
Quests with zero indication of next steps. There has to be something, some clue, however small, to indicate your next goal. Don't just say "Go find this" without any indication of at least a starting clue. If I need to get a particular mushroom, maybe don't tell me exactly where they grow, but say something like "I've heard that there is an old hag east of here who practices witchery, maybe she'll know about the mushroom." Then maybe "the old hag east of here" is actually very far east, living in a little cabin off the road, that I have to find on my own. OK. But at least I know what I'm looking for.
However what do I like in challenge?
I like to read quest text and NPC dialog rather than be shown a dot or overlay area on the map. Let me find it on my own. Don't point my nose right to it. That takes all the fun and purpose out of reading lore and text.
I like to explore, see below ...
Tasks and quests that force you out of your safe zone. Level 10 delivery quest to village on other side of world? OK! Make me explore and figure out how to get there (just make sure that there IS a way to get there. Maybe I need to ask a mage to port me; maybe I need to find that shady pirate to ferry me; maybe I need to find a gem in that dungeon to give to the shady pirate so he can take me ... etc.)
Spread out, random quests in the world. Maybe that little old lady you helped on the road is actually the starter for one of the best, longest quests in the game that gives you an awesome sword at the end. Let the players discover these things! Not everything in a nice little hub. I don't like quest hubs. Sure, a few quests in a village - that makes sense. But lumping everything in one never-ending linear path ... complete ABC go to next point complete DEF go to next point ... rinse and repeat until you hit Z ... no thanks!
Not overpowered weapons - let me work for them. The problem I see in every game is that with each new expansion or thing they add in super new powerful weapons that are very common and/or they revamp old weapons which totally trivializes content which ruins the early game and then people don't group and then it's just a downward spiral ... this needs to be dealt in very small doses. A +5 item should be VERY POWERFUL and VERY RARE. Not Candyland like in many mainstream games where every item you get is like an endgame weapon. Also, your gear should represent your considerable achievements. So yeah, at level 50 after I slayed every dragon in the world, I should look the part. At level 10, I should look like a poor squire riding a broken down pony, yes. YES I should!
Ok. I could go on but I'll stop now. You get the idea. :)
You have some great points and examples there Merrick! Thanks for putting in the effort to write it up and I agree with you all the way, time/tedious/menial task doesn't = challenge, it usually ='s content filler, progression blocker, attempt to slow the players down for whatever reason or just lazy Devs lol.
I can understand why content blockers and slowing tactics are used but time does not = challenge in my opinion, I agree strongly with skill, teamwork, risk vs reward etc. = challenge and fun!
It's a tricky topic but great answer mate, you did well to explain it :)
Jason said:
From a raid and grouping perspective I agree entirely with what has been posted thus far. From a soloing point of view I guess for me it means having tons of hard challenges thrown at me but having many tools to deal with those challenges if I am quick enough on my feet and know exactly which skill to use and when in the blink of an eye. It would be nice if a slightly undergeared person could make up for their shortcomings with pure skill as opposed to just standing there toe-to-toe with a mob and button mashing and only winning based on gear/level/luck.
Absolutely Jason, I agree mate.
Between here and Facebook there's quite a bit discussion regarding quests and does challenging always mean fun. Fun and challenging don't always have to go hand in hand for me. When I look back on memorable quests that I've enjoyed, whether on the challenging side or fun side, they all have the same common denominator... creating a social aspect.
For my example below, I will use crushbone belts. If you strip everything away from the quest, it's just another kill X amount of orcs. So why was it fun? Why do we remember it?
Mostly for me, the social aspect it indirectly created.
-WTB crushbone belts and pads
-WTS crushbone belts and pads
-What are crushbone belts used for?
-What drops crushbone belts?
-What's the going rate on crushbone belts?
-What level are crushbone belts good until?
-Where do I turn in crushbone belts?
-Where is the NPC in Kaladim?
-Does anyone have any Spirit of the wolf or buffs so that I can get to Kaladim?
And because finding a quest like this wasn't a dime a dozen, a simple quest like this
-promoted grouping
-socializing within that group to divide up the belts and shoulder pad drops
-It created a reason to travel 4 different zones
-Depending on how much time you wanted to invest into collecting belts, you were in control of the reward to an extent.
-It brought higher level players to Greater Faydark to hang out, looking to buy these belts for their alts they're about to start, putting plat in newbies pockets, handing out buffs, and advice.
To me, these are the dynamics that make content challenging, fun, and rewarding.
I like the challenges to be tough and relentless. If I feel worn down by the challenges, a good game will have enough depth and alternative activities where I can go craft, work on player housing, explore, socialize with other players or perhaps do some totally frivolous quest lines for obscure in game titles, etc...
LoTRO had a quest line where you became a level 1 chicken. When you just couldn't bear the thought of helping Legolas and Gimli slay more orcs, you could take on a totally different challenge as a chicken. The chicken could sprint for short periods and feign dead, but anything other than a level one mob could pretty much one-shot kill you. There were simple starter chicken quests with the ultimate challenge that required you visit the farthest corners of Middle Earth. The final quest had an eight hour timer and it took about 6 hrs to complete. If you died, you had to start over. When you were finally successful, you were given the title "Crosser of Roads". I found the chicken quests had great re-playability and also allowed you to make up your own challenges such as travelling to the gates of Isengard as a solo chicken.
I guess my point is that a completely linear quest line which forces everyone down the same path usually means unnecessary bottlenecks where challenges are simply converted to frustration. As the saying goes, a change is as good as a rest, so variety and the ability to choose your path makes for fun, challenging game play without compromise.
I'll use examples from the 8-bit era.
Mega Man - The right amount of challeng
Ninja Gaiden - Too challenging for most folks, but supplies an avenue for power gamers to establish bragging rights.
Battletoads - Too hard and way too tedious. I have never met anyone who has beaten it without admitting to using a game genie. My hat is off to anyone who has. I never made it past the rat race.
Admittedly, sprite based platformers make for threadbare analogs to a modern MMO. The line between Ninja Gaiden and Battletoads was probably drawn in that the former had infinite continues, while the latter did not.
While I find the Idea of a one life server to be appealing, the reality of trolls and their trains makes the death penalty model superior.
*edited out a typo
Celandor said:
I like the challenges to be tough and relentless. If I feel worn down by the challenges, a good game will have enough depth and alternative activities where I can go craft, work on player housing, explore, socialize with other players or perhaps do some totally frivolous quest lines for obscure in game titles, etc...
LoTRO had a quest line where you became a level 1 chicken. When you just couldn't bear the thought of helping Legolas and Gimli slay more orcs, you could take on a totally different challenge as a chicken. The chicken could sprint for short periods and feign dead, but anything other than a level one mob could pretty much one-shot kill you. There were simple starter chicken quests with the ultimate challenge that required you visit the farthest corners of Middle Earth. The final quest had an eight hour timer and it took about 6 hrs to complete. If you died, you had to start over. When you were finally successful, you were given the title "Crosser of Roads". I found the chicken quests had great re-playability and also allowed you to make up your own challenges such as travelling to the gates of Isengard as a solo chicken.
I guess my point is that a completely linear quest line which forces everyone down the same path usually means unnecessary bottlenecks where challenges are simply converted to frustration. As the saying goes, a change is as good as a rest, so variety and the ability to choose your path makes for fun, challenging game play without compromise.
How awesome, great example!
Challenge = Fun for me. Once the challenge is removed from a game, I become bored with it. Take Skyrim for example, I really enjoyed the game until my character became so overpowered that I destroyed dungeons within minutes. I still haven't beat it.
In MMORPGs, that's why I enjoy doing dungeons/mobs etc. meant for full groups with a small group of 2-3 extremely gifted players to increase a challenge within an MMORPG. Or, I would try to solo mobs meant for groups (EQ) when bored for an extra challenge.
I get bored with most MMORPGs today as they lack any sense of challenge, so I'm hoping Pantheon captures EQ1's challenge (or I would be ok with an increased difficulty).
And Celevin great post - brought me down memory lane. I'd add Contra, Ghouls and Ghosts, and Castlevania to your list as well.
For me challenge IS fun. If I can faceroll my keyboard through your dungeons then you are failing me as a developer. Challenge does not equal death though. If I die due to something not being my own fault but due to some random mechanic that is not fun nor challenging, just poor game design.
I must say though being a raid leader (and I'm sure the other raid leaders here will agree) I/we get even more satisfaction from defeating challenging content with my/our raid force. I led a successful raid force in VG that was almost half casual players so you can imagine how satisfying finally clearing certain 'challenging' bosses was. I remember finally defeating Shiver for the first time with the guild, the buzz and the energy that was in the guild. It was amazing!
From experience I will say this though, the toughest bosses for 'casual players' seems to be burn fights. You can get a casual player to learn a strat quicker than you can get them to min/max their dps it seems. Does anyone else find this a challenge with their players??
Keiiek said:
The PoTA armor/mount quests in Vanguard was challenging, but the grindy SoD part at the end wore me out so bad that i left the game for 3-4 months after i finished it.
Yeah parts of that quest line were a bit too much on the grindy side, although I have some great memories of grinding out in SoD with my guildies and friends and helping others, so I didn;t mind it very much but it was a bit over the top and it was purposely intended that way to slow us down due to a lack of Dev resources for the game, if the Dev team had of been flourishing, the content blockers wouldn;t have been so harsh, so it is hard to use that as an example but I get what you mean mate :)
In my defence, I did say "Epic Quests - Order and Chaos" which were specifically the end boss fights to get your Epic Augs and Epic flying mounts :)
Amsai said:
I also second much of what has been said. But ill add some. I despise the dance dance revolution highly coreographed (spelling?) Fights in FFXIV. Thats not challening its annoying. It simply punishing until you remember exactly where to stand at every 10 seconds or so. It starts turning too much into an action mmo. I much rather have challenge in the form of knowing your class and gimmicks like kiting or interacting with the environment. Pushing your limits on dps healing CC etc. Making available multiple techniques for dealing with situations on the fly. Reactionary differences in boss mechanics. But for the love of god dont make me run from place to place every 30 seconds or die. It is a challenge and I can do it but its no fun at all and more frustrating because its too much action and not enough rpg. Also dont make boss fights zergy. That can be fun but gets old fast with absolutely no challenge because you are beating on something with 2x the numbers needed. Cheapens the experience. This is why Im in favor of not letting anyone outside the raid interfere whether it be dps or healing. You claimed it. You live with the consequences live or die.
Yeah I agree Amsai, it is fun for a few fights here and there but not for many fights, I like challenge and to test my skills not spend time remembering sequences :)
Gadgets said:
Between here and Facebook there's quite a bit discussion regarding quests and does challenging always mean fun. Fun and challenging don't always have to go hand in hand for me. When I look back on memorable quests that I've enjoyed, whether on the challenging side or fun side, they all have the same common denominator... creating a social aspect.
For my example below, I will use crushbone belts. If you strip everything away from the quest, it's just another kill X amount of orcs. So why was it fun? Why do we remember it?
Mostly for me, the social aspect it indirectly created.
-WTB crushbone belts and pads
-WTS crushbone belts and pads
-What are crushbone belts used for?
-What drops crushbone belts?
-What's the going rate on crushbone belts?
-What level are crushbone belts good until?
-Where do I turn in crushbone belts?
-Where is the NPC in Kaladim?
-Does anyone have any Spirit of the wolf or buffs so that I can get to Kaladim?
And because finding a quest like this wasn't a dime a dozen, a simple quest like this
-promoted grouping
-socializing within that group to divide up the belts and shoulder pad drops
-It created a reason to travel 4 different zones
-Depending on how much time you wanted to invest into collecting belts, you were in control of the reward to an extent.
-It brought higher level players to Greater Faydark to hang out, looking to buy these belts for their alts they're about to start, putting plat in newbies pockets, handing out buffs, and advice.
To me, these are the dynamics that make content challenging, fun, and rewarding.
I think you nailed it here Gadgets, even long grinds can be fun and memorable if the social aspect is there and the reward is worth grinding for. I personally have no problem with grindy content as long as it is not all we do and it is optional to a degree, so others who don't like it can skip it and enjoy other aspects of the game or if it is progression based, it is done properly to allow great interaction and ways to entertain ourselves while doing it.
Celandor said:
I like the challenges to be tough and relentless. If I feel worn down by the challenges, a good game will have enough depth and alternative activities where I can go craft, work on player housing, explore, socialize with other players or perhaps do some totally frivolous quest lines for obscure in game titles, etc...
LoTRO had a quest line where you became a level 1 chicken. When you just couldn't bear the thought of helping Legolas and Gimli slay more orcs, you could take on a totally different challenge as a chicken. The chicken could sprint for short periods and feign dead, but anything other than a level one mob could pretty much one-shot kill you. There were simple starter chicken quests with the ultimate challenge that required you visit the farthest corners of Middle Earth. The final quest had an eight hour timer and it took about 6 hrs to complete. If you died, you had to start over. When you were finally successful, you were given the title "Crosser of Roads". I found the chicken quests had great re-playability and also allowed you to make up your own challenges such as travelling to the gates of Isengard as a solo chicken.
I guess my point is that a completely linear quest line which forces everyone down the same path usually means unnecessary bottlenecks where challenges are simply converted to frustration. As the saying goes, a change is as good as a rest, so variety and the ability to choose your path makes for fun, challenging game play without compromise.
I am all for tough and relentless to mate, I like learning the hard way or having to ask someone for help, its how social interaction works in games like this and what has been missing from many in more recent years in my opinion.
Haha! that chicken quest sounds awesome, I will definitely have to get the team to look into this ;)
CelevinMoongleam said:
I'll use examples from the 8-bit era.
Mega Man - The right amount of challeng
Ninja Gaiden - Too challenging for most folks, but supplies an avenue for power gamers to establish bragging rights.
Battletoads - Too hard and way too tedious. I have never met anyone who has beaten it without admitting to using a game genie. My hat is off to anyone who has. I never made it past the rat race.
Admittedly, sprite based platformers make for threadbare analogs to a modern MMO. The line between Ninja Gaiden and Battletoads was probably drawn in that the former had infinite continues, while the latter did not.
While I find the Idea of a one life server to be appealing, The reality of trolls and their trains makes the death penalty model superior.
Nice examples Celevin, I played Mega Man and Ninja Gaiden but not Battletoads, I will have to look it up :)
Amsai said:
Just a point of clarification. Im almost positive everyone here wants a good challenge. But it does need to be fun. This coming from someone who has died many many deaths in the Souls Series and came back for more. It needs to be fun and it needs to fit the gameplay and make sense. Or possibly it might just teach a lesson in a harsh way. But it challenge doesnt fit the game (super actiony) or doesnt fit in the setting of the game or just punishes for the sake of punishment (random death caused by an NPC with no chance to even fight back or even have it as a teachable moment).
I agree and we will have to find that balance to not make it feel like work but still make good rewards feel like you earned them, which is going to be hard! ;)
Raidan said:
Challenge = Fun for me. Once the challenge is removed from a game, I become bored with it. Take Skyrim for example, I really enjoyed the game until my character became so overpowered that I destroyed dungeons within minutes. I still haven't beat it.
In MMORPGs, that's why I enjoy doing dungeons/mobs etc. meant for full groups with a small group of 2-3 extremely gifted players to increase a challenge within an MMORPG. Or, I would try to solo mobs meant for groups (EQ) when bored for an extra challenge.
I get bored with most MMORPGs today as they lack any sense of challenge, so I'm hoping Pantheon captures EQ1's challenge (or I would be ok with an increased difficulty).
And Celevin great post - brought me down memory lane. I'd add Contra, Ghouls and Ghosts, and Castlevania to your list as well.
Yeah nice Raidan, I agree on the Skyrim point too and would strongly suggest you check out http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/? to get the experience that you want (SkyRe or Requiem are both good difficulty changing mods), I have over 220 mods to change the game into something visually stunning and one of the hardest challenges I have had in a single player RPG game, I love it and was pushing almost 700 hours on PC until Pantheon and Witcher 3 grabbed my attention lol :)
Good points on the small groups with gifted players too, I think skill should define your ability to solo/small group in games like this, since they are group based and meant to be challenging or require help from others.
NoobieDoo said:
For me challenge IS fun. If I can faceroll my keyboard through your dungeons then you are failing me as a developer. Challenge does not equal death though. If I die due to something not being my own fault but due to some random mechanic that is not fun nor challenging, just poor game design.
I must say though being a raid leader (and I'm sure the other raid leaders here will agree) I/we get even more satisfaction from defeating challenging content with my/our raid force. I led a successful raid force in VG that was almost half casual players so you can imagine how satisfying finally clearing certain 'challenging' bosses was. I remember finally defeating Shiver for the first time with the guild, the buzz and the energy that was in the guild. It was amazing!
From experience I will say this though, the toughest bosses for 'casual players' seems to be burn fights. You can get a casual player to learn a strat quicker than you can get them to min/max their dps it seems. Does anyone else find this a challenge with their players??
I completely agree mate and from a fellow raid leader/guild leader (Reverence) I totally get where you're coming from. The most fun we had as a guild was taking down or attempting to take down some of the hardest content in VG, even wiping over and over was fine because we learned something new every death that we could use to help us progress further each fight, that type of challenge is what I crave and can't wait to see it back in Pantheon :)
That's a tough question. The Pantheon grind in VG was not that bad when you look back on it. When you factor in Sorc kiting. Some grinds are evil but are needed to slow the pace I guess. First time through Pantheon of the Ancients it was not to bad, but I had 7 epic toons and it got old after the second one.
Group harvesting for a guild hall was what you would really call a grind. When you had 6 in a grp and were on Vent shooting the breeze you did not even realize it.
Fun is when your sitting at work trying to devise a way to use your game time the best to accomplish something. If that something is grinding then you have fun and not so fun some days.
I do trust the judgement of this team to make it all the fun in the world. Kilsin you played VG as hardcore as the rest of us so your insight should be a great voice of reason when it comes to grinding.
Fun also is when you are fighting the group/raid boss for the first time and trying to figure out a complex strat that some crazy dev thought up. Then 3 - 4 - 5 weeks later you finally get it down and the team performs perfect and you get the kill. Now that is fun. atleast until you noob it up the next week and cant repeat.
Haha Great topic.