If you read my first post from yesterday you'll see me explain in detail why MDD/FTE came up. To be brief, I think TLC is almost necessary with MDD whereas it can be ruled out in a good FTE system. I'm not going to delve into anything about the PNP because it's off-topic and has never been cited as something that will significantly impact the game. (AFAIK)
I'm still not in favor of the trivial loot code. I think if you want to disincentivize high level players from farming low level content that there has to be other sensible workarounds than a full stop TLC.
1) Make enemies go into a "defensive" stance when attacked by high level players, dramatically increasing their defense and making them more time consuming to farm.
2) Make enemies run immediately away from high level players, making them more tedious and time consuming to farm.
3) Certain dispositions can summon enemies matching the level of their attacker, so high level players have some element of danger.
4) Make it so high level players will always lose the MDD fight to low level players, so level-appropriate players will always win contested spawns/camps.
There are probably better concepts that would make farming level-appropriate content more appealing than farming trivial content.
Going back to Kayd's original suggestion:
Kayd said:My personal opinion is that there should be a limited form of trivial loot code, but it should not stop you from going back to get an item you missed. If you loot something valuable and/or sought after from a trivial mob (one that does not give experience) then the item should go on a list and you shouldn't be able to get any item on that list from any trivial mob again until you loot 20-30 other different valuable items from trivial mobs (thus dropping the item off the list).
We can give the high level player the ablity get the item they were looking for, and likely even get them clear of the camp faster, by adjusting the way the loot is distributed, when the challenge is trivial. So, they will likely get the item they were looking for sooner, and will move on to the next item they were looking for. This would mean people who are level appropriate, can likely get into the camp earilier.
This might also mean everyone farms the gear on their highest level character, to pass it down to their alts/progeny.
I would be interested to see this system in practice and see how it plays out.
Now if they were farming multiples of the same items, for materials from mobs, that could possibly make it advantageous to be level appropriate for the content, which I think most would agree is most desirous.
If the drop rate of rare items is adjusted favorably for higher level players then that would really encourage people to just level up as fast as possible and avoid camping anything of value while the content in question is tuned for their level. There should never be any artificial mechanic that makes it easier for people to obtain rare items for the sake of having them move on to another camp. Risk vs reward is paramount. The primary risk factor of high level players farming low level content is having to compete with other players (the content itself doesn't pose much of a challenge) -- that said, I think it's important that the lower level players actually have a chance to compete. If a high level player can steamroll an entire group of lowbies then we'll definitely see people clamoring for TLC. If the low level group actually has a chance to compete then the higher level player will naturally evaluate the opportunity cost of how they are spending their time. Steamrolling lowbies is a no-brainer because there is virtually no risk.
I don't really see how MDD vs FTE makes a difference for trivial loot code. There will always be classes that can do more burst damage. And classes who have better instant cast abilities that will be able to snag mobs on engage.
The only difference would be FTE gives some form of balance even in drastic differences in levels, but that can be eliminated with a proper loot system.
I've said this a few times but if you design a proper loot system, there isnt a reason for high levels to farm low level items. In wow, there was no real reason to go back to low level dungeons to farm items, there was always better things to farm at higher levels. If you dont create a random ass loot system like EQ had where your BiS items from from random level zones, you wont see a huge influx of high levels perma camping items.
Yes. There might be that really special item or clicky here or there. But this should never be an issue to the point where you have to artificially manage what drops for who.
Porygon said:I've said this a few times but if you design a proper loot system, there isnt a reason for high levels to farm low level items. In wow, there was no real reason to go back to low level dungeons to farm items, there was always better things to farm at higher levels. If you dont create a random ass loot system like EQ had where your BiS items from from random level zones, you wont see a huge influx of high levels perma camping items.
And completely reinforce and embrace the modern end-game mentality where leveling is just a means to an end, where next to nothing obtained/done along the journey holds much value compared to what is available toward the end. Why spend time doing a difficult quest or camping for specific loot when it will all just be replaced/rendered obsolete within 5, 10, 20 levels? Best to just keep grinding exp. Let the player economy be mostly limited to high level participation because surely even a commonly dropped weapon from a high level area will be better than even the best level 15/25/35 drop, so why bother buying any gear from early-mid game areas?
I think a trivial loot code similar to that of Firiona Vie paired with being able to mentor down to earn rares at intended difficulty is far superior to just going with the world-building be damned gear treadmill.
Iksar said:Porygon said:I've said this a few times but if you design a proper loot system, there isnt a reason for high levels to farm low level items. In wow, there was no real reason to go back to low level dungeons to farm items, there was always better things to farm at higher levels. If you dont create a random ass loot system like EQ had where your BiS items from from random level zones, you wont see a huge influx of high levels perma camping items.
And completely reinforce and embrace the modern end-game mentality where leveling is just a means to an end, where next to nothing obtained/done along the journey holds much value compared to what is available toward the end. Why spend time doing a difficult quest or camping for specific loot when it will all just be replaced/rendered obsolete within 5, 10, 20 levels? Best to just keep grinding exp. Let the player economy be mostly limited to high level participation because surely even a commonly dropped weapon from a high level area will be better than even the best level 15/25/35 drop, so why bother buying any gear from early-mid game areas?
I think a trivial loot code similar to that of Firiona Vie paired with being able to mentor down to earn rares at intended difficulty is far superior to just going with the world-building be damned gear treadmill.
Have you ever played classic wow? You're acting like you can just buy level 50 items at level 10. Having an in depth loot system does not do anything in regards to lower level economies.
Theres no reason for an item from a level 20 zone to be a BIS tradable item. If you want to create these influential items at lower levels, just make them no drop. That way theres little to no reason for someone to spawn camp this area.
Porygon said:Have you ever played classic wow? You're acting like you can just buy level 50 items at level 10. Having an in depth loot system does not do anything in regards to lower level economies.
Theres no reason for an item from a level 20 zone to be a BIS tradable item. If you want to create these influential items at lower levels, just make them no drop. That way theres little to no reason for someone to spawn camp this area.
Yeah, and common higher level drops will be numerous and cheap enough for low levels to afford which would let them leap far ahead for all their gear rendering low-mid level drops useless/vendor fodder. WoW dealt with it by having level requirements and largely BoP/BoE itemization.
The reason is world-building and heavily reducing the idea that leveling isn't just a means to an end, ensuring that not everything one does beyond grinding during the journey is worthless. Doesn't have to be BiS from a level 20, but could very well be comparable to high end drops or pre-max level raid/challenging group content BiS.
Making gearing a constant treadmill and ensuring items from higher levels are tiered and always 100% better is just a different way of having a trivial loot system. Only in the treadmill model almost all items prior to high/max level are trivial.
Some thoughts I had that lend me to believe that there won't be any type of 'Trivial loot code' in Pantheon, that will prevent players from going back to obtain items in low level areas.
From the recent MMORPG Dev interview (24:18) they talk about items and itemization (ie where items come from). The topic goes through to 33:40 which is about 10 minutes.
For those who don't want to listen to it all I will try to paraphrase the parts that refer to the topic.
Basically Joppa and Brad explain that unique items will be distinct and recognizable, and come from a specific place. When you get the Flaming Sword of Soverienty people will know that's what it is and where it came from. They also explain that these items once obtained will not 'instantly' needed to be upgraded as soon as you level up. They should last you a signifigant amount of time.
Porygon said: Theres no reason for an item from a level 20 zone to be a BIS tradable item. If you want to create these influential items at lower levels, just make them no drop. That way theres little to no reason for someone to spawn camp this area.
Now as Porygon said, an item you can obtain at level 20 might not be BIS (Best in Slot) for a max level character. But that does not mean that it may not be the best obtainable item for a player who has already past level 20 and that content has become mostly trivial.
Since the world is hopefully going to be large with lots of places to go and see, it's possible that you may level up in an area on the other side of the world from where an item drops. And by the time you hear about an item and where it comes from, and you travel across the world to find that dungeon with that Named NPC, you could have out leveled that content. But it's still a worth while item that you will want to obtain, and still be an upgrade for what you were using.
In the above linked interview, Brad also clarifies that 'The vast majority' of items in the game will be tradeable. I remember in a different video: First CohhCarnage Stream (22:40) he also said this and explained that 'Quest' items and specific 'Crafted' items will be the exception. Crafted items would likely be Bind on Equip so that future buyers need to buy directly from a Crafter rather than finding used crafted items.
In the Second Dev Stream (1:46:30) that they did back in June 2016, they had Corey Lefever (Senior Game Designer) who's team actually chooses where and when you obtain items.
He explains that they have already mapped out items into the future expansions (claiming 10 years worth of planning) so they know how the stats on items will progress. He says that in the early game items may only have a couple points of stats until you start killing Raiding bosses. He says that it will be different than in more recent MMO's where each level you replace your entire suit of gear with stuff that is 10-20 times as good as the previous gear. Which re-affirms what Joppa and Brad said about items lasting you for a while before you find upgrades.
But this also may mean that you could be past the level where an item is obtained and you still won't have anything comparible or better. So going back to a lower level area to get an item may still be totally viable and an upgrade for you.
Going back to the MMORPG interview part I linked first, Joppa also talked about the 'Scavenging' skill that is part of the Harvesting system. This is where you physically search in a spawn area, basically rummaging through the camp of the enemies you just killed looking for something useful. He explained that this too may let you find rare items or crafting componants that are only available through this 'Scavenging' skill.
It's also possible that specific crafting componants may only be found through 'Scavenging' in specific places. So crafters may be required to go back to lower level areas to 'Scavenge' for those rare componants that are only available in that area. Even if those componants can be Scavenged in higher level areas, the crafter may find it more efficient and less risk to go to the lower level area to make his Scavenging less time consuming and dangerous. Also, even if componants can be aquired in other ways (not only through salvaging), it may still be efficent to go salvaging in lower level areas as a faster way to get some types of componants.
The other part of crafting that may play a part is the 'Salvaging' skill. This is the process of breaking down items to obtain crafting materials used to make other items. Similar to the 'disenchanting' found in WoW. Crafting some items may use 'Salvaging' of specific types of dropped items in order to obtain the needed compontants.
For example: let's say you are crafting a high level weapon called 'Holy Sword of Wonder'. In order to craft this, you need a special 'Magical Hilt' and a 'Blessed Edge' among the other mundane compontants. There may be several ways to obtain a 'Magical Hilt' and a 'Blessed Edge', such as through crafting them using various rare 'magical' compontants you harvested painstakingly. You may also need a special 'Blessed Anvil' found only in a specific Holy temple to make the 'Blessed Edge'.
But, these items also maybe be obtained by Salvaging rare weapons found in your adventuring. Any Magical item might have a small chance to grant a 'Magical Hilt' when savlaged. But only special 'Holy' or 'Blessed' weapons might have a small chance to get a 'Blessed Edge'.
But if you found 'Sword of the Divine' from the Duke of Divinity (mid level) named boss, and you choose to 'Salvage' it, it gives you a Very High chance (maybe even 100% chance based on your Salvaging skill) to obtain a 'Magical Hilt' and a 'Blessed Edge'. This saves you lots of time and rare componants you would use to make those items yourself. Thus, this could make the 'Sword of the Divine' a valuable item for high level crafters even when it's a mid level item that isn't used anymore by high level players.
This also means that it's hard to find a 'Sword of the Divine' to buy in the trading market, since it will be bought up quickly by crafters for 'Blessed Edges'. Keeping it rare, even years after release.
I took joppas comments to mean, you dont need to replace your items every ten levels to remain effective. Which you realistically had to do in WoW. The difference in a full suit of armor from level 20 to 30 might be negligible. Therefore no need to replace the armor but that doesn't mean the items arent available.
I mean plate wearers receive an entire suit of armor in BRK alone. and that seems to be separate from any named drops or special drops.
I think there will be much more "statted" gear than people think.
Some very experienced professionals are spending a lot of thought on these issues.
Properly so - to many (far from all) players gear is the most important part of the game and it drives behavior.
I am quite happy to leave this thread (for a while) comfortable that whatever system they come up with - whether it resembles the way I would have done it or not - will make sense.
dorotea said:Some very experienced professionals are spending a lot of thought on these issues.
Properly so - to many (far from all) players gear is the most important part of the game and it drives behavior.
I am quite happy to leave this thread (for a while) comfortable that whatever system they come up with - whether it resembles the way I would have done it or not - will make sense.
I understand your intent with this post. But you could literally say this about every single topic that comes up on these forums. And therefore.. what's the point of the forums.
Theres nothing wrong with having discussions and debates of various topics. Even those that have already been set in stone (if anything actually has).