Niien said:
Rivacom said:
I think we also need to see a reason for people to visit the hub, if you make no reason, then there certainly will never be anything created. If you give players too many tools, there is no need to socialize, but if you give too little, same thing can happen.
IE: I think they should bring back the User Vendors again. Bazaar 2.0. Only searchable to see who has items for sale and then you need to go find that person. A mix of EQ and SWG. This would create the need to have a social area and for players to visit it.
The reasons would be created by the community. Their needs will create the reasons that a hub is created. Trying to create or force people to one place might just turn people off from it altogether. Make a world, let the people decide what happens. If this "common marketplace" creates itself and becomes big enough, then the most I would suggest doing to promote it would be to ask the devs to throw in some scenery like the land had started to change and there are booths and what not around. If the market moves... let the land evolve again and let the marketplace disappear.
Obviously this is my personal opinion and I'm not saying that a Bazaar/AH isn't easier, though I don't believe it creates the social environment we are looking for.
I 90% disagree with you, I do agree the users should make the hub as they see fit. But if you give the player every option known to man, there isn't really going to be a need for these uses to want to create this hub. WoW is a great example of this. Picture WoW with no group finder, no flying, no fast travel, no Auction House. If this was the case users would have to actually communicate, and possible find a gathering place to recruit for raids, dungeons, and leveling. Now theres no work involved and I have no need to even visit a place. I sit in my instance hub, I hit looking for group, and it instantly teleports me to a dungeon.
So if given too many tools, your going to see less need for a social hub. Therefore VR needs to leverage what is given to the player. IE I think a bazaar setting, no global chat, and other things would create a very social game.
Rivacom said:
Niien said:
Rivacom said:
I think we also need to see a reason for people to visit the hub, if you make no reason, then there certainly will never be anything created. If you give players too many tools, there is no need to socialize, but if you give too little, same thing can happen.
IE: I think they should bring back the User Vendors again. Bazaar 2.0. Only searchable to see who has items for sale and then you need to go find that person. A mix of EQ and SWG. This would create the need to have a social area and for players to visit it.
The reasons would be created by the community. Their needs will create the reasons that a hub is created. Trying to create or force people to one place might just turn people off from it altogether. Make a world, let the people decide what happens. If this "common marketplace" creates itself and becomes big enough, then the most I would suggest doing to promote it would be to ask the devs to throw in some scenery like the land had started to change and there are booths and what not around. If the market moves... let the land evolve again and let the marketplace disappear.
Obviously this is my personal opinion and I'm not saying that a Bazaar/AH isn't easier, though I don't believe it creates the social environment we are looking for.
I 90% disagree with you, I do agree the users should make the hub as they see fit. But if you give the player every option known to man, there isn't really going to be a need for these uses to want to create this hub. WoW is a great example of this. Picture WoW with no group finder, no flying, no fast travel, no Auction House. If this was the case users would have to actually communicate, and possible find a gathering place to recruit for raids, dungeons, and leveling. Now theres no work involved and I have no need to even visit a place. I sit in my instance hub, I hit looking for group, and it instantly teleports me to a dungeon.
So if given too many tools, your going to see less need for a social hub. Therefore VR needs to leverage what is given to the player. IE I think a bazaar setting, no global chat, and other things would create a very social game.
I'm a bit confused. I thought you were saying that you wanted Pantheon to create these hubs.
I'm saying that I want Pantheon to create a world and let the players decide where and when to meet. Don't force them.
Did I miss something Riva?
Keiiek said:
Well, in most any fantasy books i've read, the social hub was usually the tavern. Maybe hanging out at the tavern could give you some sort of tangible perk. Perhaps a buff called "Well Rested" that is applied to you once you've been in the tavern for a certain amount of time. One hour maybe? Half hour? This buff could give any number of temporary stat increases. A well rested party is a party ready for adventure :)
LOVE IT!
So DEVS in Pantheon lets see taverns in the outposts, large open buildings we can all gather as players, tell war stories and find new friends to make new stories we can share toimorrow.
CelevinMoongleam said:
I could see a tavern as a reasonable place to grant access the LFG GUI.
Personally if Pantheon has an LFG system, then maybe no need to limit it to a location, again thats the DEVs dictating behavior, as opposed to it just forming out of the play of the game. Everyone keeps coming back to EC tunnel, and I have to agree, there is no better example of giving the players freedom to choose how they play resulting in such places. If this wasn't the best way for it to be, we wouldn't be here sharing how much we all loved it!
I am not sure I want an LFG tool to be honest, we survived just grand in EQ with out it, and no one used it in Vanguard even if it was pretty damn good tool. In EQ on MT server EC tunnel was the social and auction hub, but the WC druid circle became the social and LFG hub for many years. Until luclin came along and pretty much ruined EC and WC. I think back now, this was not a good thing for the time, really it stole a magic we players had given the game, and not DEV dictated gameplay. I don't like offline selling myself, its an MMO not a factory simulator, want to craft and sell? fine, but you must spend time doing both.
I sold chainmail weekly in EC tunnel for a very long time, and years after had players come to me and relate how my armor was the first upgrade they bought for their pally, or Sk or warrior or shammy or rogue and how important it was to them. I spent countless hours getting components, craftng and selling, but that was the charm of it all. When I started leading open raids on MT I had people get their first planar armor on my raids, many who also bought that early armor from me, standing in EC tunnel, hacking my chainmail for 1pp per AC per piece, buy three pieces get 2pp off, buy full suit get 5pp off. You can't even come close to something as magical as that in modern MMO games, I mean would anyone actually remember the toon they bought their first armor from in WoW or ESO? I bet not.
In Vanguard, EQ2 and EQ I had players seek me out for crafted goods, they didn't go to an auction house or global chat or some weird static instance for sellers, they came to me and requested I craft gear. I don't think you *need* global anything at all, we will define how we play given the simplistic ability to do so, we do not need DEVS dictating zones, or locations, or chat channels, or anything more than giving us our world, and allowing us to decide how to play with in it.
Why does everyone come here and speak of the magic of those early days of EQ like no other game experience since? Because plain and simply it does not exsist. Brad and the Verant team focused on one simple ideal, give the players their own world, And they did, better than any has since. I hope VRI gives us that magic once again.
Last thing I want is a LFG tool. Put good sized pops on the servers no need for LFG tools. Once the community no longer needs itself (same server) then the self policing go's out the window. Once your actions and words no longer have any effect because they have no consequences this whole social hub idea is no longer even relevant.
I am seriously dedicated to this game BUT very very much against a LFG tool.
Xan
Niien said:
Rivacom said:
Niien said:
Rivacom said:
I think we also need to see a reason for people to visit the hub, if you make no reason, then there certainly will never be anything created. If you give players too many tools, there is no need to socialize, but if you give too little, same thing can happen.
IE: I think they should bring back the User Vendors again. Bazaar 2.0. Only searchable to see who has items for sale and then you need to go find that person. A mix of EQ and SWG. This would create the need to have a social area and for players to visit it.
The reasons would be created by the community. Their needs will create the reasons that a hub is created. Trying to create or force people to one place might just turn people off from it altogether. Make a world, let the people decide what happens. If this "common marketplace" creates itself and becomes big enough, then the most I would suggest doing to promote it would be to ask the devs to throw in some scenery like the land had started to change and there are booths and what not around. If the market moves... let the land evolve again and let the marketplace disappear.
Obviously this is my personal opinion and I'm not saying that a Bazaar/AH isn't easier, though I don't believe it creates the social environment we are looking for.
I 90% disagree with you, I do agree the users should make the hub as they see fit. But if you give the player every option known to man, there isn't really going to be a need for these uses to want to create this hub. WoW is a great example of this. Picture WoW with no group finder, no flying, no fast travel, no Auction House. If this was the case users would have to actually communicate, and possible find a gathering place to recruit for raids, dungeons, and leveling. Now theres no work involved and I have no need to even visit a place. I sit in my instance hub, I hit looking for group, and it instantly teleports me to a dungeon.
So if given too many tools, your going to see less need for a social hub. Therefore VR needs to leverage what is given to the player. IE I think a bazaar setting, no global chat, and other things would create a very social game.
I'm a bit confused. I thought you were saying that you wanted Pantheon to create these hubs.
I'm saying that I want Pantheon to create a world and let the players decide where and when to meet. Don't force them.
Did I miss something Riva?
Never said I wanted Predetermined hubs. I agree that players should play a huge role. My statements are basically saying, if you give too many tools(IE:LFG, Global CHAT, Auction House, etc) then there is no need for players to create hubs. So I am suggesting that VR kinda force hubs to be created by creating tools and services that would require players to want to join up with other players.
Gadgets said:
Sometimes less is more.
^^^^^^^ Wisdom
Look at how the game that were successful kept trying to add more and more to please the mass spectrum and the quality of the game declined with it along with the quality of the social interaction.
WE NEED to stay focused on the niche of this game and EVERYTHING needs to support that niche NOT the masses. I see a LFG tool as a mass spectrum fixer. If people want groups they need to:
1- Not be Douchebags
2- Make friends with fellow peoples on the servers
3- Join a guild
4- Be willing to help others
5- Know their class and role
These 5 things took a game not many people new of when it launched named Everquest and Catapulted it into a new must play game by the time Kunark released (obvious their were other reasons) but this reason had a strong community impact.
Xanier said:
Gadgets said:
Sometimes less is more.
^^^^^^^ Wisdom
Look at how the game that were successful kept trying to add more and more to please the mass spectrum and the quality of the game declined with it along with the quality of the social interaction.
WE NEED to stay focused on the niche of this game and EVERYTHING needs to support that niche NOT the masses. I see a LFG tool as a mass spectrum fixer. If people want groups they need to:
1- Not be Douchebags
2- Make friends with fellow peoples on the servers
3- Join a guild
4- Be willing to help others
5- Know their class and role
These 5 things took a game not many people new of when it launched named Everquest and Catapulted it into a new must play game by the time Kunark released (obvious their were other reasons) but this reason had a strong community impact.
But at the same time, If they had never created teh Bazaar system(User Sales and listings) would the bazaar been the bazaar? I know it was a little different from the Tunnel to the Nexus but. Some stuff is needed to create something. I think we just need a limit to how much is given.
I think cities or outposts are crucial to the game feeling alive. When I played EQ2 for a spell I think guild halls were the worst invention possible. Cities became ghost towns because people just ported to and from their. Cities need to be the central location people congregate. Cities that are alive do so much for the community. Younger players see higher level players with cool gear and that inspires them to want to work towards that. Its great for the economy as well. If the game or cities feel like ghost towns you might as well be playing a solo player game. Please do not include instanced player housing or guild halls.
I think players will create their own social hubs regardless of what designers intend. Ironically, most 'designed' social hubs like a tavern in a city probably never get used since players besides the RP crowd will hang out where it is practical instead, such as EC tunnel in early EQ or PoK later on - a central point where players could hang out that is close to wherever they might want to go when they are done being social.
Social hubs are very important. I want to see people in-person (well, in-virtual-person...), not just text in chat.
IMO auction houses and even EQ Bazaar style automated vendoring is BAD.
This is a MMO. People need interaction, not automation. The feeling of buying from and selling to live people is in quite a different class from automated trades, creating queries and seeing listings.
If I wanted that, I could install a SQL server, not a MMO game
Additionally, social hubs need a real reason to exist. EQ 1 Eastern Commons tunnel existed for trade, and it was on crossroads where many people were going through anyway. Players decided where the trading hub is going to be.
Forcing some specific place into a social hub without giving them a reason - if there are no crossroads (worse yet, if there is no travel since people teleport from the other side of the world straight into the inside of an instance), if there is no trade (automated through auction houses), the human interaction is not there any more.