Chaoticus said:
/shout Camp Check
ORC 1!!!!
Raidan said:
@Rivacom
Probably, but I argue that Brad's dislike for camping is wrong. One of the aspects that made the community in EQ great is EQ dungeons and the camping element of them (downtime that forced interaction), contested content, etc. I get his idea that he wants everyone to experience all the world, but it shouldn't be because forced game mechanics cheapen the experience.
And, his point awhile back about camping the same mob from 1-50, although I'm sure was a hyperbole to stress a point, was simply wrong. I did stay in Unrest with some characters (my alts mainly) from 12-35, but it was not camping the same mob, but rather, based off level, I would be able to travel further into the dungeon - the yard mobs until 17, first floor until low 20's, second floor mid 20's, 3rd floor/Basement high 20's, low 30's, etc. and you had a sense of achievement once you finally could conquer the dungeon like you had earlier stated. Even more than that, on my first character, I typically went to where I heard stories of good loot, or good exp, or even based off friends/guildmates recommendations etc. and I did experience much of the world, even if it was not every dungeon/area.
I like having different factions/races experience different sections of the world versus trying to force players to see all the world on the first play-through, it makes it seem more real, and makes the replay-ability better if you wanted to experience the world from a different race/perspective.
Bottom line, if you want players to experience the world, develop content that makes people want to go there, versus having forced mechanics (rights of passage steps, etc.) that bring you there. Because, even if it's just a quest step basically that brings you to the zone (and the zone is terrible), people will only complete that quest step and then go back to their favorite zones. If there's enough zones with viable content, loot, etc., I highly doubt one player will camp one mob/zone etc. only.
With that said... I could gush about this topic forever, and I will wait to expand on it more till I hear it answered in a future Roundtable :)
Thank you! you just said what I have tried to say before but more clearly.
unrest was a perfect example. To expand even further, in the later levels, Velketor's Labyrinth was another. It was socially exciting to me to grow a level or two with my group, or build a group and get better with the slippery terrain and move deeper in/up. Exploring the unknown is what kept me playing EQ and these type or zones and game play are missing in all games I have played since I left EQ. I hope Brad can work this type of thing into his vision.
Late to this one but I wanted to add my thoughts on the "camping" topic.
I hear a lot of folks saying that this is one of the things that made EQ great. Well in some ways it did but in some ways it didn't. One man's trash is another man's treasure. Some will love camping and contesting spawns while others will hate it. I look back with nostalgia on the days I camped Lodizal, Tormax, Dain, etc were some of my best AND worst experiences ;) I'm not sure I'd want to return to the days of camping for "days" only to lose to someone (or some group) that just happened to do more damage that I did. That said I think that LARGE dungeons with contested mobs are fine provided there's plenty of content for everyone and perma camping is either not feasible or is simply not worth the time.
It's tough looking back on the glory days of EQ and separating the good from the bad or knowing what of the formula would work again today. I don't myself know since so much of the joy was mixed with pain... but I do know that I don't and won't miss much of the frustration. I can safely say that had there been a better/comparable game sooner (than WoW or EQ2 for example) most of my guild would have left sooner than we did. EQ was a second job and not many wish to return to that aspect of the game but we all want to bring back the days of glory. It's a hell of a challenge to really distill out what should or shouldn't be brought forward into it's spiritual successor.
@Santiago,
But that's the problem though. Most of the punishment has been removed from modern games which has sanitized the challenge. Even if an encounter is "challenging" it isn't really if there's no fear of any reprecussions - whether that be death penalties, camping, contented content, kill stealing, etc.
And that's the thing - you can't separate the good from the bad with EQ - the good was "good" because you overcame the bad. And even moreso when you overcame the bad through social interactions - the shared hardships are when the bonds really formed. That's the reason why MMOs are so boring, trivial, meaningless, (insert adjective) today is because you experience the "good" without having to ever experience punishment. There's no avoidance of pain because you never truly experience it. You die, you respawn at a graveyard, and poof your back at it again. A game doesn't need to be masochistic, and, some of EQ's camps could be like Lozdial which could be tweaked, but, removal of all punishments for the sake of convenience/fun/good is why MMOs are in the state they're in today.
And, I don't mean to pick on you specifically, but you're the lucky winner of my ramblings today :). The problem that I see consistently with not wanting death penalities, camps, contentested content, etc. is exactly what you stated. The "I don't have enough time" argument that I did in EQ. Or, "I don't want a second job." Thing is, I don't either. The difference between me in 1999 and now is Huge. However, so are my expectations. Guess what - I may just not be able to camp Lodizal like I did then, or Raid Velious or current zones. I might have to be ok with just Velketor's loot versus top high-end. I don't want watered down challenges, content, and the world to cater to me. I may pay my $15 bucks a month, but that buys me access - not exclusivity. There's something to be said about someone willing to put in more time. It doesn't garuntee succcess, but more than likely they'll have more opportunity to be.
Some people will still have time like they did in 1999, and hopefully, a new generation of younger players especially will. Let them experience the binging, the addiction, and the burnout, while we can sit back on our rockers and enjoy the ride.
Raidan said:The difference between me in 1999 and now is Huge. However, so are my expectations. Guess what - I may just not be able to camp Lodizal like I did then, or Raid Velious or current zones. I might have to be ok with just Velketor's loot versus top high-end. I don't want watered down challenges, content, and the world to cater to me. I may pay my $15 bucks a month, but that buys me access - not exclusivity. There's something to be said about someone willing to put in more time. It doesn't garuntee succcess, but more than likely they'll have more opportunity to be.
Some people will still have time like they did in 1999, and hopefully, a new generation of younger players especially will. Let them experience the binging, the addiction, and the burnout, while we can sit back on our rockers and enjoy the ride.
This is exactly how I feel. Just because the game can be heavily involved and require extraordinary amounts of time to get the best loot does not necessitate that you buy into it. Spend as much time on it as you can and enjoy the world for what it is. Hell, I look forward to not having as much time as I used to because the world will remain a mystery to me for an even longer amount of time. And with that mystery comes the immersion and enjoyment of exploration and learning game/group mechanics.
Don't request the game be stripped down to meet your current needs, just appreciate what time you can spend in the game and let those that have the time invest it.
To get this back on topic: I look forward to hearing specifics on dungeon planning from the devs. The May newsletter did include the following tidbit that I am suprised I haven't seen mentioned: "overland dungeon called Black Dagger Keep" which they plan to showcase next, potentially next month. This, I think, tells us a good deal about at least one type of dungeon they plan to implement-- open world and non-instanced. It is hard to speculate where they will take this though regarding dungeon size, intention of housing multiple party groups simualtaneously for camping or more of a "crawl" approach as I have heard used in this thread, or the player level range it will cater to. I would like to hear peoples thoughts on the aformentioned.
Depending on the pacing, the crawl method could provide sufficient down-time for socialization and such, but I could imagine awkward encounters with other groups if it took this route in a open-world dungeon format.
I am very found of the camping methods and the community building it gives rise to. For me it is hard to argue against this method and I know there are many otehr here that feel the same way. I look forward to seeing a camping dungeon implementation done with some new twists. "Trust in VR".
-k.i.wenzel
Hieromonk said:I can say with almost certainty, that Pantheon will not have instances... unless it is part of a character's story, or for lore. Bit most certainly not for Raids, etc. I am sure VRi will chime in here, but can't see the point to an instanced dungeon in Pantheon.
Open world dungeon just means it is not underground, like Crushbone.
How about Oasis that was a zone, god I loved those deep water crocks.
Hieromonk said:Image original EQ, with just 2 more dungeons like Upper/lower Guk (or Sol A/B). How much foot traffic and camping it would've have stopped. Now picture 5 more dungeons... there would be no such things as "camps", if EQ's content wasn't so anemic upon release.
I do agree with completely that there needs to be more dungeons. Absolutely undeniable. But I'd argue that much of the camping issues arrose not specifically from the limited amount of dungeon content, but more specifically about the iconic items that people felt they must acquire. Every melee had to have an FBSS. Every caster had to get an Gatorscale Sleeves. Every cleric had to have the adamantite epaulets. These were almost considered a requirement to start participating in any raid encounters that would themselves again provide those required slot replacements.
A more broad range of dungeons with a more broad range of comparable gear items would reduce the incentive to sit in one spot and smack one named over the head in an on-going pinata pummeling hoping that one sweet piece of candy would finally fall out.
Feyshtey said:
A more broad range of dungeons with a more broad range of comparable gear items would reduce the incentive to sit in one spot and smack one named over the head in an on-going pinata pummeling hoping that one sweet piece of candy would finally fall out.
It is a fine line to walk. I'm not sure if adding "a more broad range of comparable gear items...actually... Would reduce the incentive to sit in one spot and smack one named over the head in an on-going pinata pummeling hoping that one sweet piece of candy would finally fall out. "
Players will still decide that there is one, or a couple, sllightly better items and camp those specifically. Also, if you add to many similar items it waters down the items themselves. If everyone has similar but different gear you also lose the feeling of accomplishment at attaining that rare item. By adding a bunch of similar items (even if they are no drop) it devalues them all.
Maybe having most items be no drop is a solution that would satisfy your desire?
You have a point about watering things down too much. Having a recognizable and known item has a certain prestige. But like was the case with the FBSS, that was a game changing item for a melee. They HAD to have that ONE item. That goes beyond just avoiding watering down, and instead goes to the extreme of every player being exactly like every other because they have to have exactly the same gear.
Raidan said:@Santiago,
But that's the problem though. Most of the punishment has been removed from modern games which has sanitized the challenge. Even if an encounter is "challenging" it isn't really if there's no fear of any reprecussions - whether that be death penalties, camping, contented content, kill stealing, etc.
And that's the thing - you can't separate the good from the bad with EQ - the good was "good" because you overcame the bad. And even moreso when you overcame the bad through social interactions - the shared hardships are when the bonds really formed. That's the reason why MMOs are so boring, trivial, meaningless, (insert adjective) today is because you experience the "good" without having to ever experience punishment. There's no avoidance of pain because you never truly experience it. You die, you respawn at a graveyard, and poof your back at it again. A game doesn't need to be masochistic, and, some of EQ's camps could be like Lozdial which could be tweaked, but, removal of all punishments for the sake of convenience/fun/good is why MMOs are in the state they're in today.
And, I don't mean to pick on you specifically, but you're the lucky winner of my ramblings today :). The problem that I see consistently with not wanting death penalities, camps, contentested content, etc. is exactly what you stated. The "I don't have enough time" argument that I did in EQ. Or, "I don't want a second job." Thing is, I don't either. The difference between me in 1999 and now is Huge. However, so are my expectations. Guess what - I may just not be able to camp Lodizal like I did then, or Raid Velious or current zones. I might have to be ok with just Velketor's loot versus top high-end. I don't want watered down challenges, content, and the world to cater to me. I may pay my $15 bucks a month, but that buys me access - not exclusivity. There's something to be said about someone willing to put in more time. It doesn't garuntee succcess, but more than likely they'll have more opportunity to be.
Some people will still have time like they did in 1999, and hopefully, a new generation of younger players especially will. Let them experience the binging, the addiction, and the burnout, while we can sit back on our rockers and enjoy the ride.
Raidin, I agree with you more than not. However I have seen this argument several times about how we might not be able to do this or that but that a new generation will. Im not saying it couldnt happen, but I wouldnt use this as a good reason to introduce the type of hardcore content/challenge. Mostly because I dont buy it. I have seen several major develpers do what I call the cardinal sin of developers: Alienating an existing playerbase in favor of seeking out an audience that DOES NOT exist. Square Enix has done this in the past I know for sure and I believe GW2 did the same recently. I just look over at my 16 year old nephew and try to picture him having the patience to endure some of these features and I just cant see it. Also maybe Im selfish but whatever the Devs make Im interested in that I enjoy it first in foremost. However the game turns out. If other people dig it too then great. I know Im not the only one that has been MMO homeless for several years. So I have an active and vested interest that this game is that home. In all seriousness it seems from tenents, features and dev posts etc, that this will be some mix of EQ meets VG with new lore/graphics and some newly inspired ideas.
Which brings me to my next point. It should be stated that there is a difference between challenge and patience vs just plain old drudgery and sanctioned griefing (some exceptions for PvP servers). Its a fine line but it does exist. There is a such thing as too much of a good thing :b
Also I dont thing we disagree on this point??? But Im not a fan of only contested content. Thats not to say I dont think there should be contested content. But as always I am a fav of a varied appoach to content. It can all still be open world, but Id like everything from BiS crafted gear to BiS contested raid gear to BiS Epic Quests gear to BiS triggered mob gear. And along with that Id want them to be different locations per slot and per class. I dont want to see everyone have to go to Raid C to get BiS chest gear. Maybe that is where classes 1 and 2 get theirs but classes 3 and 4 get theirs from Epic quest Q, etc etc.
Note in general: Dont get caught up in BiS folks its just examples and there could be similar items at different locations as Brad has said before.
Raidan said:@Santiago,
But that's the problem though. Most of the punishment has been removed from modern games which has sanitized the challenge. Even if an encounter is "challenging" it isn't really if there's no fear of any reprecussions - whether that be death penalties, camping, contented content, kill stealing, etc.
And that's the thing - you can't separate the good from the bad with EQ - the good was "good" because you overcame the bad. And even moreso when you overcame the bad through social interactions - the shared hardships are when the bonds really formed. That's the reason why MMOs are so boring, trivial, meaningless, (insert adjective) today is because you experience the "good" without having to ever experience punishment. There's no avoidance of pain because you never truly experience it. You die, you respawn at a graveyard, and poof your back at it again. A game doesn't need to be masochistic, and, some of EQ's camps could be like Lozdial which could be tweaked, but, removal of all punishments for the sake of convenience/fun/good is why MMOs are in the state they're in today.
And, I don't mean to pick on you specifically, but you're the lucky winner of my ramblings today :). The problem that I see consistently with not wanting death penalities, camps, contentested content, etc. is exactly what you stated. The "I don't have enough time" argument that I did in EQ. Or, "I don't want a second job." Thing is, I don't either. The difference between me in 1999 and now is Huge. However, so are my expectations. Guess what - I may just not be able to camp Lodizal like I did then, or Raid Velious or current zones. I might have to be ok with just Velketor's loot versus top high-end. I don't want watered down challenges, content, and the world to cater to me. I may pay my $15 bucks a month, but that buys me access - not exclusivity. There's something to be said about someone willing to put in more time. It doesn't garuntee succcess, but more than likely they'll have more opportunity to be.
Some people will still have time like they did in 1999, and hopefully, a new generation of younger players especially will. Let them experience the binging, the addiction, and the burnout, while we can sit back on our rockers and enjoy the ride.
Beautifully explained and an excellent angle matey :)
Appreciate the feedback Hokanu and Kiwenzel.
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@Amsai,
And to that I ask you - what existing playerbase? The playerbase that continually jumps ship on new MMOs seeking the next that promises innovation and great gameplay for only shallow results? Why continually cater to a playerbase that has shown they are not loyal to the games that are being released? Yes, as I've stated in many threads, if you add convenience features and make the game accessible, you'll have short term gains for long term failures. I would argue that the EQ model would provide sustainability, even if it never had the peak subscriber amount as high as if you had made it more accessible. There's been no MMO since EQ that has followed the same formula - including VG. Again, this isn't me wanting EQ reskinned - we've had many discussions on that, but to say there's no playerbase for it's gameplay is impossible to know. The one thing we know for certainty is watering down an MMO results in mass player exodus after 2-3 months.
Either way, you seem to be missing my overall point. My argument wasn't that only the new generation will have more time, it's that a facet of people overall will have more time than people like me (wife, kids, full time job with a second part time job). There's plenty of people of all ages that have much more expendable time. Those who are retired, those without kids, those on disability, etc. etc. etc. It's not only the newer generation that would have more time, my point regarding the newer generation is that they shouldn't be cheated out of a quality MMO experience like EQ because of the "I don't have enough time" argument. And, just look at me posting here - somehow I still find enough time to post on a message board. Players will find the time if it's a good enough game - if it's not, then it doesn't matter anyway.
And, I'll expand some and use myself as an example. Even at EQlaunch, I had plenty of activities throughout the week where I could only squeeze in a few hours on the week nights - usually no more than 2-3 and many nights none at all; although, admitedly I often did binge on the weekends for 6+ hour sessions. And, you better believe it, I was full on evercrack, because I would daydream about some of the future play sessions and plan in my head of what I would do to accomplish the most in the alotted time that I had. And, as a warrior, I was still one of the first to 50.
I would gladly take that same EQ experience today, knowing that I may only have two or three, 2+ play sessions a week. I would still plan ahead and be able to accomplish goals, although at a slower pace, but as others have stated, there are positives to not being able to play as much as well (outside of real life experiences) in that you won't outpace the content either. Again, as I stated in my post that you replied to - it's my expectations that have to change - I may not be one of the first warriors to 50 this time, but I'm ok with that. I was burned out of raiding in EQ by Kunark (although I still raided Velious) - perhaps that wouldn't be the case with Pantheon
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And, to your second point. I wouldn't want the developers to sanction griefing; rather, I want the developers to create an atmosphere that can foster that kind of emergent behavior. It's another good with the bad idea. And, I want servers and players to be able have a reputation where that griefing matters and players choose not to grief because they don't want a negative reputation (I know insert Kalgore comment but I'm such a great player I'll get invited to groups anyway - which, yes, we disagree again). We've discussed this in length before though as you know - which, ultimately, if it was a continued issue - GM involvement would be necessary.
__________________________
And, to your last point - I am open to try a varied approach for end game activities, which all would need to be thoroughly tested prior to implementation. I don't get caught up as much about BiS pieces as much as them just being worthwhile. Have something meaningful, but doable where the risk meets the reward. I know I've linked you the Coldain Shawl Quests and Coldain Ring Quests from EQ previously as examples, but I would want the varied end game content to be something similar to those quest lines.
@ Raidan
Just for truths sake. I totally plan on spending unhealthy amounts of time in game. So for me personally, making myself avalaible and investing in the content will come down to choice (read: Is it fun). Im fairly open to risk vs reward. Even brutal death penatlies (outside of item loss). I tend to have a fairly cavalier attitude to multiple deaths in a row. Its the one thing that pissed me off in XI was the wimps that wouldnt be " down for the cause". As for contested content? Depends on how things work. Im not against it at all, but I will say my idea of contested content might not jive with others here. This percent damage thing just really bothers me. Saying that, there is always PvP :D
To your first point, yes I guess I did miss your point. I worry about devs alienating audiences because they have done it to me before multiple times including single player games. And you got me on the existing playerbase thing, I guess a better wording would be potential playerbase. My point was more directed at oldschool players in general vs new school players when I said I dont see it. Another words while I fully think this game will attract many folks young and old. I wasnt trying to focus on time in this instance although its probably impled from how older games played vs the new ones. I think the vast majority will be oldschool gamers from multiple old mmos, and not really that many are from newer MMOs. I could be wrong?!
Second point. Thanks for the clarification. I cant disagree with any of that. To the degree that reputation matters is what would be in question to me. But I wont say in this kind of game it wouldnt exist. I just hope it matters as much as you expect it too! Truly!
Last point. I thought you and I agreed on that (if not specifics) and I forgot it was you that linked me those cool quest lines. For some reason I was thinking it was Dullahan.
Raidan said:And, just look at me posting here - somehow I still find enough time to post on a message board. Players will find the time if it's a good enough game - if it's not, then it doesn't matter anyway.
I think this is the most important point of your post, and something people often forget.
We've all been buttslammed by mediocre games for so long, games that we didn't want to conitnue playing, games that we played as filler while waiting for other games. Games that can't hold our attention and games that continue to disappoint. It's easy to say to ourselves, "Well, I'm a busy guy, so obviously I won't be spending a lot of time on these MMO's", but when that ONE game comes along it often doesn't matter how busy we are, we still find time.
I went from MMO to MMO for a long time. I was busy with school, a relationship, bills, and work. It was arguably the busiest time of my life with the exception of now. But when I stumbled upon LOTRO and decided to give it a shot, figuring I owed it to the game as a huge LOTR fan, I was hooked. I made time, I ran a Guild, I ran raids. I did all this, while still finding time to wine and dine (a la McDonalds Dollar Menu) the girlfriend, do good work at my job, finish school, and pay my bills.
Maybe we've all experienced half-baked games for so long that we actually didn't want to play, that we forget how it feels to actually strive to make time for games we do.
Amsai said:I worry about devs alienating audiences because they have done it to me before multiple times including single player games.
I would argue instead that most MMOs alienate the players that are here supporting the tenents held by Visionary Realms. VI acknowledges that this audience for this game is a niche market, and it is them the game is built specifically for. That audience overwhelmingly desires contested content, open zones, emergent behavior, and a dilberate lack of hand-holding and spoon-feeding content.
Feyshtey said:Amsai said:I worry about devs alienating audiences because they have done it to me before multiple times including single player games.
I would argue instead that most MMOs alienate the players that are here supporting the tenents held by Visionary Realms. VI acknowledges that this audience for this game is a niche market, and it is them the game is built specifically for. That audience overwhelmingly desires contested content, open zones, emergent behavior, and a dilberate lack of hand-holding and spoon-feeding content.
I would agree with that first sentence and I do have hope in that second sentence. Though that doesnt mean I dont worry, its human nature. Disagree with the 3rd sentence. Understand this isnt me disagreeing about wanting all of that. Its me stating that EVERYONE that posts on these forums represent a small fraction of people that are members. Use the search function and see how long it takes you to get just through members that have a name starting with A. I have never seen most of those people ever post. Different folks signed up for this game for different reasons.
I personally signed up for specifically the old school (in general and not specific to EQ or VG) feel. Im on board with the Pantheon Difference, though still a bit worried about the Progeny thing. I am on board with the everything on the Features page.I also am on board with everything on the Tenets page. Saying that though, eveything except Open Zones (open world), in your last sentence might be implied but not stated on either of those pages. And while I would want all 4 of those things, I have seen plenty of arguments on these forums that would suggest that some people dont want 1 or 2 of those things. At the very least Im not sure the audience overwhelmingly desires contested content. There are too many arguments over it or people that want instances etc. I think this probably stems from people that enjoyed EQ at different expacs or from people that favored VG more. In some things there might be too many mixed opinions for anything to be an overwhelming majority, in others thats probably accurate. Then there is the smaller faction of people like myself from other oldschool games who are a minority, but still probably agree on most things with EQ and VG folks.
I look to the Project1999 community, and give it as evidence that there are far more people thank you might think that believe exactly as I stated. They want that old school EQ world desperately, to a point where an only recently sanctioned emulator hosts as many online users conncurrently as a live server did back in the old days of EQ. The community that wants that not only exists, but is quite strong. And I would argue that a majority, perhaps a vast majority of the people who have come to this site and signed up on these forums did so foremost because 'the guy' from original EQ is the 'the guy' doing this, and sticking to his guns on some core fundimentals from his design past.
People who hate those core principles in old school EQ are not going to be paying to play Brad's newest game. Let alone be here to engage in the development well more than a year before any potential release.
Fair enough. And Im not saying you are wrong. I dont know for sure. But I will say I havent seen direct evidence to support this. What you offer is circumstantial. Also I did acknowledge the majority of folks are probably here because of EQ and VG. But Im not sure you can say they all agree with eachother. There seems to be a difference between Vanilla EQ fans vs EQ fans after the first (2or 3 expacs?) vs VG fans. Lastly Im not saying people who are here hate the core principles of old EQ. Im saying that not everyone likes the same things. I seriously doubt that everyone that plays P1999 likes the same things. Some people just like a game for the most part and take the good with the bad. So while I acknowledge that the vast majority of players are probably EQ and VG folks, I cant acknowledge that they all overwhelmingly like the same things. Thats just not statistically possible.
Raidan said:@Ox
I'm assuming you're meaning pros and cons of camps versus crawls? Or are you meaning too many dungeons versus not enough? Or instanced dungeons versus non-instanced? Each one could have a fairly hefty pro/con list :)
Exactly what I was thinking. I figured its a good idea to get all this out in the open so people can see it and possibly a new direction for the dungeons. Just my opinion though. I want the od feel back but don’t want the same sort of model we have in every other MMO. It’s going to take some creativity so lets open up the discussion on all levels for dungeons.
Ox
Raidan said:Some people will still have time like they did in 1999, and hopefully, a new generation of younger players especially will. Let them experience the binging, the addiction, and the burnout, while we can sit back on our rockers and enjoy the ride.
My thoughts exactly Raiden. I pity the young'uns today who have never tasted the fine fruit of that bygone era. I hope that Pantheon will be their chance.
Amsai said:Saying that though, eveything except Open Zones (open world), in your last sentence might be implied but not stated on either of those pages. And while I would want all 4 of those things, I have seen plenty of arguments on these forums that would suggest that some people dont want 1 or 2 of those things. At the very least Im not sure the audience overwhelmingly desires contested content. There are too many arguments over it or people that want instances etc. I think this probably stems from people that enjoyed EQ at different expacs or from people that favored VG more. In some things there might be too many mixed opinions for anything to be an overwhelming majority, in others thats probably accurate. Then there is the smaller faction of people like myself from other oldschool games who are a minority, but still probably agree on most things with EQ and VG folks.
I am pretty sure (and only going on a shaky memory lol) that most of the stuff you are worried about here based on what there have been arguments over have also been chimed in on by a VR member saying specifically there will not be instanced zones with the possible exception of a story section of the game.
This also says to me it is VERY unlikely the dungeons will be runs like modern day style of... enter, fight to the boss and teleport back to the start and then rinse and repeat..
You are right in the sense there may be mixed opinions on this stuff, the people who want instances do have voices and often loud ones but i think its fairly safe to say that is not the direction of VR and to be honest i would be extremely surprised if the the majority of people signing up and pledging money for this game are against contested content, open zones, emergent behavior, and a dilberate lack of hand-holding and spoon-feeding content as mentioned by Fey. While specifics may not be listed in the pantheon pages regarding these exact features I think we all have a good sense of the direction VR are heading in and i feel like the 4 features that Fey has stated are about bang on with the majority of peoples expectations who are prepared to part with money based on a concept that those features are very much entwined with being... the 2 big and regularly discussed old school mmo's on thei firum VG and EQ
On a side note I think it is great you are ensuring that all voices are heard and considered and that is a noble and considerate thing for someone like yourself who is actually for those old school features but is great you want to keep it real by reminding us of the range of opinions, but I feel like its probably summed up best by saying it is simply not going to be that kind of game, I cant imagine they are going to risk the momentum now and the interest that is evolving for this game by going back on a range some of the very much cherished and loved features of the old school that clearly make a large point of difference present day run of the mill mmo's and those particular old school ones that have been fondly discussed and reflected on by the devs and a very large chunk of pledge supporters who are speaking time and time again.
I would feel bad for those who want a instanced game because i would imagine that the devs have well and truly moved well past that discussion now in their inner circles and those who are lobbying for instances in dungeons etc are probably barking up the wrong tree with Pantheon, however thinking about it they have PLENTY of mmo's to be playing right now and other ones in development, I would say they are pretty spoilt for choice as it is.
So what exactly do you guys mean by crawling? In EQ most of the time it required crawling to get to any specific camp. Seeing as how named mobs randomly spawn from killing their placeholders until they pop, why exactly would you want to crawl around the dungeon unless you already know a named mob is up somewhere in the zone? It seems to me crawling is geared more towards instanced where a boss mob is at the back of the dungeon and requires moving thru and killing mini bosses along the way. As I said before, it requires crawling to get to an area where the particular mob spawns that you are after of course unless your group is already there and you just die and get a drag to camp.
I am hoping dungeons are laid out as I was eluding to. Having named mobs that spawn in different parts of the zone and each one be considered a campable area that requires ''crawling'' to get there would be the classic experience. Sure there could be small dungeons and large dungeons but each having different pieces of loot that drop from random named who spawn by killing their placeholders til they pop. This really does create a great environment for social interaction as well as gaining experience. You can level, chat, and get a chance for a piece of loot all at the same time. I cant really think of any better way for a dungeon to function that this. Now the types of dungeons is where you can be creative. Some that are confusing and have lots of different paths leading lots of different ways with multiple levels/floors, some that are small and densely populated with mobs, some that require keys to advance to other areas, some that can house a major boss deep in but still allow for players to xp and get loot in other areas, some that are raid only, some that have 2 version such as a lower level dungeon connected to its higher level counterpart (sola/solb, uguk/lguk, etc). So many different directions you could go with dungeons but ultimately each having its own areas to camp and variety of loot in my opinion is the best way to go.
Both in EQ and VG there were plenty of dungeons where if you just wanted to crawl around the zone killing and making your way thru it was all there to do so. But what is the point unless you are crawling to the camp you want to chill with your group and soak up xp and loot? Not saying there is anything wrong with roaming around and checking out the zone. But it just seems more viable to get setup in a somewhat safe area and rake in xp and loot while chatting with your group and having a good ole time.