Raidan said:
$15 a month: Standard norm, standard expectations for MMO development, content releases, expansions, GM interaction, etc. Expansions 6 months - 1 year
$20/month: What are the expectations? GM Events Weekly? Added Content/Quests/Items? Expansions 3-6 months?
$25/month: Expansions 2-3 months? GM Events Daily?
$30/month: Expansions 2 months? Multiple GM Events a day?
$40/month: Expansions 1 month? GM Events through the day?
$50/month: Expansions 15 days? GMs don't sleep?
Obviously I'm using a bit of hyperbole here, but I still think everyone is overlooking one major factor - everyone on these boards are pretty much already a huge supporter and are willing to support not only the developers, but the game's success - so the dollar amount doesn't seem to be as big of a deal.
However, outside these boards, Player expectations for higher subscription rates would be higher and ultimately more staff would need to be hired to compensate - more GM events, more content released, quicker expansions, etc; and if those expectations aren't met, people will scream at being ripped off, which ultimately could affect the bottom line by paying more staff salaries and by potentially losing subscriptions by not meeting increased (outlandish) expectations.
$50/mo = $1.66 per day for a 30 day month, when you break it down to that measly amount, which is less than half the price of a daily coffee, I wouldn't be withholding the GMs from any sleep ;)
There is a pretty big audience for a raised subscription fee, which is why we wanted to gather feedback from this thread and our questions list that I put together. The outside audience (away from these forums) also had a pretty large say on the monthly fees and both these forums and the questions indicated that people are willing to pay more than the standard $15/mo. I was one of the ones trying to push this idea for VG over the course of 4-5 years to help support the game and it's devs while allowing enough money to be used to support the game properly, we all know how that ended but the amount of community members willing to pay was overwhelming.
This low monthly fee even priced at $50 is more than just purchasing 24/7 entertainment, it is also raising the entry level for the more undesirable people, like your gold farmers, younger more immature instant gratification crowd etc. so with the increase in monthly fee would also come an automatic reward of more like minded and mature players which is one of the biggest reasons a lot of people are interested in this sub fee raise, of course there will still be undesirable people with money to burn but the majority will not want to pay the increased amount for a stage to troll on.
Also with the increase would come QA and more dedication to the game, support and updates/expacs.
Although you do not see many posting in our MMORPG.com section, they are definitly out there, we can see this by the response to our questions with hundreds of outsiders to these forums speaking up in privacy. I wouldn't use MMORPG.com as a test subject for many things due to the wide spread of personalities and different game genres all posting and trolling in other game threads that they have no intention of playing.
I personally would pay $20-$30/mo without the expectation of anything different other than knowing the price would be out of reach for a lot of undesirable people and that we would be promised dedicated on going support and bug fixing with enough GMs to help and support the game. Going higher than $30/mo I would start to expect a bit more.
If i were to pay more, which I am totally on board with, I wouldn't want it to include faster expansions, because that would then entail that the content is able to be accomplished within less amount of time, which is the exact opposite of what I want. Maybe bigger expansions, but never faster.
Nevertheless, the price point is entirely subject to how many people we get playing Pantheon. If by some strange miracle we get 1 million subs, 30$ a month would be overkill and unnecessary. And by contrast if we were only able to pull 100k, then maybe 30$ a month might be something that would make sense. The problem is changing a monthly subscription based on player population is totally unheard of and would probably be met with a lot of skepticism.
You really have to get a feel for the amount of people that will be playing Pantheon before you can set a subscription amount, then leave it wherever you chose unless it is a dire need to increase it.
issues with paying more ( I am pro higher sub fee by the way )
With the current launch lacking starting cites for each race, at this stage no or a very basic trade and harvesting system would you pay a higher fee right out of the gate on launch day ?
I think if you wanted to launch with a higher sub fee people will expect at least the standard MMO components to be in game already.
otherwise launch as is with a standard $15.00 fee and as the features come on bored you could look at rising the sub fee.
Zandil said:
issues with paying more ( I am pro higher sub fee by the way )
With the current launch lacking starting cites for each race, at this stage no or a very basic trade and harvesting system would you pay a higher fee right out of the gate on launch day ?
I think if you wanted to launch with a higher sub fee people will expect at least the standard MMO components to be in game already.
otherwise launch as is with a standard $15.00 fee and as the features come on bored you could look at rising the sub fee.
We have racial starting cities for each race mate, we spoke about this in the one of the pod casts or roundtables. We will also have crafting. ;)
Kilsin said:
Zandil said:
issues with paying more ( I am pro higher sub fee by the way )
With the current launch lacking starting cites for each race, at this stage no or a very basic trade and harvesting system would you pay a higher fee right out of the gate on launch day ?
I think if you wanted to launch with a higher sub fee people will expect at least the standard MMO components to be in game already.
otherwise launch as is with a standard $15.00 fee and as the features come on bored you could look at rising the sub fee.
We have racial starting cities for each race mate, we spoke about this in the one of the pod casts or roundtables. We will also have crafting. ;)
Don't tease me here, we talking a basic Crafting system or a full fledged crafting system ?
Last I heard was possibly a basic version which could be built on with updates and xpacs ?
Zandil said:
Kilsin said:
Zandil said:
issues with paying more ( I am pro higher sub fee by the way )
With the current launch lacking starting cites for each race, at this stage no or a very basic trade and harvesting system would you pay a higher fee right out of the gate on launch day ?
I think if you wanted to launch with a higher sub fee people will expect at least the standard MMO components to be in game already.
otherwise launch as is with a standard $15.00 fee and as the features come on bored you could look at rising the sub fee.
We have racial starting cities for each race mate, we spoke about this in the one of the pod casts or roundtables. We will also have crafting. ;)
Don't tease me here, we talking a basic Crafting system or a full fledged crafting system ?
Last I heard was possibly a basic version which could be built on with updates and xpacs ?
I can't promise fully fledged Crafting at launch but you will be able to craft, Joppa is very keen on including this as we know there is so much support for it. It will also be expanded as the game grows.
Zandil said:
By the way could you point me to the pod or round table about starting cities, again I thought we were going with reduced starting cities ?
Man...how could you miss it.
Read the recap that I wrote for everyone and then listen to the Roundtable for more detailed info on it.
https://www.pantheonrotf.com/forums/topic/1749/developer-round-table-2-28-15
Let's get this back on topic too please, I swear that poor search function feels so lonely and needs some attention. ;)
All I can add is if I went back to 1999 when I bought EQ as a teenager and begged my parents to pay the sub I can tell you 100% if it was much more then it was I would not be in this forum today. All these "we are older so we can pay more " lines basically give the middle finger to any future generations that want to get into this. I am sure there will be plenty of young people in the same boat that are going to never play a $30 a month sub that might have 100% loved Pantheons vision of an MMORPG and grown up supporting this game for many years. Instead they are going to stick with the cheaper games and wish there was something more to gaming but never looking here.
This feeling of not needing more gamers then those who already enjoy these types of games simply is self defeating. Lower entry point means more people will give it a real shot. Even with a free intro people are not going to play something they know is going to be $50 a month eventually (or more correctly get a parent to pay).
Xonth said:
All I can add is if I went back to 1999 when I bought EQ as a teenager and begged my parents to pay the sub I can tell you 100% if it was much more then it was I would not be in this forum today. All these "we are older so we can pay more " lines basically give the middle finger to any future generations that want to get into this. I am sure there will be plenty of young people in the same boat that are going to never play a $30 a month sub that might have 100% loved Pantheons vision of an MMORPG and grown up supporting this game for many years. Instead they are going to stick with the cheaper games and wish there was something more to gaming but never looking here.
This feeling of not needing more gamers then those who already enjoy these types of games simply is self defeating. Lower entry point means more people will give it a real shot. Even with a free intro people are not going to play something they know is going to be $50 a month eventually (or more correctly get a parent to pay).
Yeah but to put it into perspective, back then we were not running around with iPads and iPhones, I am 37 years old and I can remember when I was very young getting $1-$5 pocket money for mowing the lawns (back then that would buy a lot of lollies!), these days $15 is nothing to the younger generation, most of them have their own phone accounts paid for by parents, so times change and inflation is a part of that.
I agree with you about back in the day though, I probably wouldn't have played EQ either if it was more than $15 but that was then, this is now, times definitely have changed and people are willing to pay more. This also raises another point that has only been touched on lightly in this thread, $15 16 years ago and we still pay that amount today for most games, Petrol goes up, bills go up, food and groceries go up but this is one thing that has always stayed the same, in these modern times, increasing the sub fee for a game that is being created by a small but passionate and skilled dev team is only going to help us continue the support and updates for a long time to come, if we were a multi million dollar company like some of the others, I could understand the concern but we are not and any money we get goes directly to the team and the game, so it helps us a lot with game development.
Again, nothing is set in stone though and we have no intention of raising anything without proper research but the topic is interesting and one we are watching closely.
I would be interested to hear from Brad or Devs that are involved in this side of games as to why the $15.00 has been so stagnate, as Kilsin stated everything has gone up including to rent a server and maintain it surely would have increased over such a time ?
people's wages to develop the game and maintain it must have inflated.
It seems company's rather then raise the price of a sub have either found other ways to rise the money but hide it in such a way you don't notice it ( micro transactions ) or rather then rise the sub deem it better to raise the amount of players in the game.
Kilsin said:
$50/mo = $1.66 per day for a 30 day month, when you break it down to that measly amount, which is less than half the price of a daily coffee, I wouldn't be withholding the GMs from any sleep ;)
This is true, but in a discussion I had with Heiromonk earlier on the first thread about subscription rates, the cost per month is all relative. The standard rate for a cup of coffee has been established to be around $3.00 by places like Starbucks; whereas, no games have even close to a $50 dollar a month subscription rate (or a $30). So, people can expect a Starbucks type quality Coffee for 3 dollars, but what is the expectation for a game at $50/month or $30/month? I could be completely off base though and there be a gigantic market for a higher subscription simply to weed out the undesirables and have no greater expectations; however, I'm with Xonth on this one - I think there would be too many potential newer and older players filtered out as well.
Raidan said:
Kilsin said:
$50/mo = $1.66 per day for a 30 day month, when you break it down to that measly amount, which is less than half the price of a daily coffee, I wouldn't be withholding the GMs from any sleep ;)
This is true, but in a discussion I had with Heiromonk earlier on the first thread about subscription rates, the cost per month is all relative. The standard rate for a cup of coffee has been established to be around $3.00 by places like Starbucks; whereas, no games have even close to a $50 dollar a month subscription rate (or a $30). So, people can expect a Starbucks type quality Coffee for 3 dollars, but what is the expectation for a game at $50/month or $30/month? I could be completely off base though and there be a gigantic market for a higher subscription simply to weed out the undesirables and have no greater expectations; however, I'm with Xonth on this one - I think there would be too many potential newer and older players filtered out as well.
Theres also a reason why most people don't blow money on Starbucks coffee. While its popular, I'm going to go out on a limb and guess less than 1% of people who drink coffee every day drink Starbucks.
Raidan said:
Kilsin said:
$50/mo = $1.66 per day for a 30 day month, when you break it down to that measly amount, which is less than half the price of a daily coffee, I wouldn't be withholding the GMs from any sleep ;)
This is true, but in a discussion I had with Heiromonk earlier on the first thread about subscription rates, the cost per month is all relative. The standard rate for a cup of coffee has been established to be around $3.00 by places like Starbucks; whereas, no games have even close to a $50 dollar a month subscription rate (or a $30). So, people can expect a Starbucks type quality Coffee for 3 dollars, but what is the expectation for a game at $50/month or $30/month? I could be completely off base though and there be a gigantic market for a higher subscription simply to weed out the undesirables and have no greater expectations; however, I'm with Xonth on this one - I think there would be too many potential newer and older players filtered out as well.
That is my point though and you used my example of a multi million dollar company vs a small indie developer. Starbucks mass produces and go for quantity to make their profit, where as a small business owner who ran one coffee shop would not produce anywhere near the quantity but could provide that extra quality and service if they charged a small amount more and you know the money would be going directly to them and their business which would help them improve.
We are tasked with this decision everyday in life, either support the big guy or support the little guy who usually struggles among the big guy's to make a living, I personally choose the little guy 90% of the time because I know my money is going directly to that person and their store, even if I have to pay a little more, I usually get better/friendlier service and can speak to the person serving me who is usually the owner too.
We also need to remove the $50 option as that would be extremely unlikely but was used as an exaggerated example. I am not made of money by any means but I personally think $30 would be absolutely fine in this day and age for a whole month of 24/7 entertainment knowing that my money was supporting a small but dedicated, talented and passionate team, rather than a faceless multi million dollar corporation who only cares about the bottom dollar.
I understand where you and Xonth are both coming from and I don't think it's a matter of choosing sides or that anyone is right or wrong, I just think you are both looking at it from the wrong perspective, you get what you pay for but in small business it goes to the people you usually deal with and in this case (VRI), the more the team gets, the more we can do. We already have a niche product that many will want to play and as long as we can produce a quality game we will keep those people, since we are basing our revenue model on subscriptions though (also requested by our target audience), that is where we will be looking to when we need money to support, upgrade, produce expansions, pay the bills/wages etc. the more there, the better the quality and the more of it, if it's not there, then it's not there, simple as that.
I would be fine for that 30$
For that 30$, I would expect absolutely no other in game purchase for sale. No mounts, no in-game apparel, no pets. I would expect same day customer service. I would expect a lot content in -game ( Pantheon has been promoting "content is king" all along :) ). I would expect a game that runs smoothly and has relatively few bugs. For me, it would be fine if there were additional charges for extra services like character transfer. These expectations sound basic - however the last few years of new releases have not met all these expectations. If the game meets these expectations I would be thrilled to hand over 30$/month.
Zandil said:
I would be interested to hear from Brad or Devs that are involved in this side of games as to why the $15.00 has been so stagnate, as Kilsin stated everything has gone up including to rent a server and maintain it surely would have increased over such a time ?
people's wages to develop the game and maintain it must have inflated.
It seems company's rather then raise the price of a sub have either found other ways to rise the money but hide it in such a way you don't notice it ( micro transactions ) or rather then rise the sub deem it better to raise the amount of players in the game.
You know, you would think that server costs are a lot. When actually server technology is becoming cheaper. As cost of hardware and services(IE Bandwidth) continues to get cheaper, the cost of hosting servers really hasn't inflated that much. The only thing that stays pretty level is the cost of power.
Kilsin said:
Xonth said:
All I can add is if I went back to 1999 when I bought EQ as a teenager and begged my parents to pay the sub I can tell you 100% if it was much more then it was I would not be in this forum today. All these "we are older so we can pay more " lines basically give the middle finger to any future generations that want to get into this. I am sure there will be plenty of young people in the same boat that are going to never play a $30 a month sub that might have 100% loved Pantheons vision of an MMORPG and grown up supporting this game for many years. Instead they are going to stick with the cheaper games and wish there was something more to gaming but never looking here.
This feeling of not needing more gamers then those who already enjoy these types of games simply is self defeating. Lower entry point means more people will give it a real shot. Even with a free intro people are not going to play something they know is going to be $50 a month eventually (or more correctly get a parent to pay).
Yeah but to put it into perspective, back then we were not running around with iPads and iPhones, I am 37 years old and I can remember when I was very young getting $1-$5 pocket money for mowing the lawns (back then that would buy a lot of lollies!), these days $15 is nothing to the younger generation, most of them have their own phone accounts paid for by parents, so times change and inflation is a part of that.
I agree with you about back in the day though, I probably wouldn't have played EQ either if it was more than $15 but that was then, this is now, times definitely have changed and people are willing to pay more. This also raises another point that has only been touched on lightly in this thread, $15 16 years ago and we still pay that amount today for most games, Petrol goes up, bills go up, food and groceries go up but this is one thing that has always stayed the same, in these modern times, increasing the sub fee for a game that is being created by a small but passionate and skilled dev team is only going to help us continue the support and updates for a long time to come, if we were a multi million dollar company like some of the others, I could understand the concern but we are not and any money we get goes directly to the team and the game, so it helps us a lot with game development.
Again, nothing is set in stone though and we have no intention of raising anything without proper research but the topic is interesting and one we are watching closely.
EQ launched at $10/month , then went to $12/month. MMO sub rate has only been $15 for about the last 5 years or so.
When I started playing EQ, I'd get $10 a week for mowing my grandparents lawn which is how I paid for my sub plus having that extra money. Today I'm 36 and can obviously afford more. However I still think the $20 - $30 range would be ideal and anything more is really pushing it. I can also say that I would not pay that for my 11 year old daughter to play a game if I didn't play these types of games as well.
No matter the sub rate though , I wouldn't want to see expansions coming out any sooner than once a year and that is to quick imo. Id say about a year and half to two years is ideal.
The one thing about raising the sub too far that I fear is that it may alienate enough potential players to stunt Pantheons popularity. Putting a higher sub on an indie game than any other mmorpg in history could be easily misinterpreted.
Contrary to what some may say, and even what players in our community here may know, there is actually a fricking HUGE number of people out there crying out for a game like Pantheon.
I guess my fear is that I know with 0 competition for this type of game, it will inevitably become very popular. If VRI plans for only a 50k playerbase and adjusts the subscription to compensate, it may never break that popularity threshold where it goes from quiet little niche game to the amazing oldschool phenomenon that it should become, all on account of a steeper price in the age of F2P games. It would be truly tragic for this to happen.
At the end of the day, I think the sub should be whatever it takes to pay the team and keep the ship sailing. I just think raising the price should be something done out of absolutely necessity, and no other reason.
The second this game comes out with a $20 sub every other game will see it and either raise theirs, seeing what people are willing to spend or will try and stay lower to take people away. F2p games are not free they still usually cost to get top end and stay top end. Also if people want this type of game they will pay or they won't, I think 20 dollars a month would be perfect, I also think they need to put out what $20 a month will get you. Not in game gadgets, but a dedicated staff to keep this old school MMORPG up and running with new content that will still keep it just the way it started. Also that it is a new young company and it has bills and devs to pay. Their 20 dollars will get them a VG/EQ esque game where leveling matters good hard content matters equipment and character lvling matter. Only promise what you can do.
Zandil said:
If Pantheon charged $20-$25 a month would you need to charge for Xpacs or would the Sub cover that cost ?
That's a good question. Usually the sub is only to keep the current game going. I think Brad and team would need to tell us what we could expect from the extra cash coming in. Though I originally started this thread due to doubts that our small community could give enough money to keep the game going. So I was thinking if we paid more... less people had to play to keep it going.
Zandil said:
If Pantheon charged $20-$25 a month would you need to charge for Xpacs or would the Sub cover that cost ?
For arguments sake, let's just say $20/mo just covered the subscription and expacs were extra since they are very time consuming and a lot of work and effort goes into them plus they are not regular, they are expansions of the original game.
Niien said:
Zandil said:
If Pantheon charged $20-$25 a month would you need to charge for Xpacs or would the Sub cover that cost ?
That's a good question. Usually the sub is only to keep the current game going. I think Brad and team would need to tell us what we could expect from the extra cash coming in. Though I originally started this thread due to doubts that our small community could give enough money to keep the game going. So I was thinking if we paid more... less people had to play to keep it going.
Does there need to be more to justify a small increase?
We cannot tell you what it involves because this is just discussion that you started and we want to get your opinion, we have not planned to raise the price we are just using hypertheticals to continue the discussion in your thread.
Do you feel that you need to see more for say a $20 sub fee?
Personally I would be fine paying $20 without seeing anything new, as long as the game was supported properly and had VG-like GMs to help with any tickets and in game problems plus regular bug fixing and updates as required I would be fine with a $5/mo increase, especially knowing it helps a small team, I may have a problem if it was someone like EA or Blizzard asking unless it was to eliminate Free to Play or a Cash Shop, then I would throw money at any company no matter their size.
Kilsin said:
Zandil said:
If Pantheon charged $20-$25 a month would you need to charge for Xpacs or would the Sub cover that cost ?
For arguments sake, let's just say $20/mo just covered the subscription and expacs were extra since they are very time consuming and a lot of work and effort goes into them plus they are not regular, they are expansions of the original game.
I would be happy to pay $20 for a sub and $XX amount for Xpacs as long as the game is worth the money. I guess my question is how much would people pay per month in a sub if the sub included all future content and patches ? could a sub, lets say $50 bucks or under sustain such a game and all future xpacs in a sub of this amount ?
Would players be prepared to pay sub up around the $50 if it was all inclusive of future updates ?