manowar said:
So what if half of those subs will stop paying. And the sub is at the same high price. $25-30 , Will content still comming out at the same speed?. And will new players come to try out the game? when all other games cost around $15 a month.
I Think that will prevent new players from even trying the game out.
That's the point I have tried to make to many. Yea in the players eyes this game might be worth $20-@30 dollars. And I know they are designing a Niche game. But this doesn't mean they don't want more subscribers. VRI is a business and I would assume if they can attract more users without changing the foundation of the game IE: cost of it. Then they will try.
Hieromonk said:
Another idea, VRI can make it simple:
$50 Pantheon Account (w/1 month, 1 char).
$22 month for subscription.
FREE TRIAL KEYS:
When VRI is in a place to handle spurts of growth & control influx, they can then announce FREE trial keys (Friends & Family, Magazine, MMO Site, etc). Except those people start on a starter island, similar to EQ2. These FREE trial players will have a different history of their beginning days. But within a few levels get dumped off in a starter cities sewers... and left to make something of themselves, like the rest of us.
This brief separation allows for role playing aspect of tons of massive influx of people who die off quickly... to be far from view of paying members. Whom should be shielded from errant noobie names, & lvl 1 griefers, etc.
The idea of a FREE starter island allows VRI to offer FREE trials keys as they see fit. Which easily allows them to control the influx of actual players landing in the paying world. While also giving a good chance to holt & filtering out the many boters & farmers & hackers & Goonies, trying to capitalize on Pantheon.
Packages and Savings: (@ $22/month rate)
1 Year Subscription to Pantheon $240 ($264) + $24 savings
2 Year Subscription to Pantheon $460 ($528) + $68 savings
3 Year Subscription to Pantheon $699 ($792) + $92 savings
Additional Characters $25
I like the island idea, that would probably work well for most players.
As for the yearly subscription. Don't get me wrong, I want to see this game do really well. But how many yearly sub based games have we seen flop the same month they are released. I don't even think I can count on one hand. And that's the issue. Yes I want to help VRi develop a create guy, yes i'll probably contribute to them more then I would to any other game. But I'm not about to drop couple hundred dollars in 1 day on a game that isn't finished. Heck look at games like ESO, great story, ok gameplay, you hit gameplay and it's done. What if I had sub'd for ayear? I barely played a month. I'd be out more money that I could of used toward other games.
Starting islands or starting area's locked away from the rest of the world actually do more harm than good to a game, especially games like EQ, VG and Pantheon that all have racial starting area's, as they take new players away from their starting lore and harsh introduction into the world and separate them from other players.
I would not personally be in favour of a starting island, I would rather the freedom of starting in your natural racial starting area if we had to have some kind of trial.
Kilsin said:
Starting islands or starting area's locked away from the rest of the world actually do more harm than good to a game, especially games like EQ, VG and Pantheon that all have racial starting area's, as they take new players away from their starting lore and harsh introduction into the world and separate them from other players.
I would not personally be in favour of a starting island, I would rather the freedom of starting in your natural racial starting area if we had to have some kind of trial.
I would agree, a big part of the magic of EQ was the harsh land you were thrown in. When I went to live after years of not playing EQ... the starting noobie area was just ****... imo... We will just need active guides actually patrolling the names/noobie areas to make sure their ban hammer is kept dirty.
I also have never liked newbie islands or even having limited number of starting areas. One of the things I really loved about EQ, VG, WoW, etc is that each race starts in an area that really sets the tone of that race's lore and/or backstory and gives at least a small bit of info about what the current state of that people is. Compare that to a starting area where it's like OH HAY YOU JUST GOT SHIPWRECKED HERE WITH A BUNCH OF OTHER RACES WHO FOR SOME BIZARRE REASON WERE ALL ON THE SAME SHIP and it just feels so much more generic. I want my people to come from SOMEWHERE even if that somewhere is being subjugated to another race and living in their shadow in the slums of their racial home town.
I am not really one of the people who gets upset about seeing offensive names or reading about goofy stuff in OOC channels but I know some people simply cannot enjoy a game if they can see anyone saying anything they don't want to read. For me the only annoyance is in spamming of trades/guilds/gold selling, etc that makes it impossible to use any of the chat channels effectively for actual conversation, role play, help, etc.
To me this can be mostly by simply allowing for decent chat filters. Have the standard profanity filter. Add in the ability to block any channel you choose. I personally like the ability to create various windows and specify the textual data you want to see. Also add in the ability to block chatter from free accounts. Make it granular so that you can block free accounts in specific channels, or in all channels. Then people who don't mind reading and helping can do so and those who hate it can block it. The standard /ignore should also be available. Maybe throw in some automated filters that block repetitive like text to keep down on the gold/guild/trade spam. Have these filters also work for opening trade windows, spamming group/guild invites, etc. Allow the option to block just a character or their entire account.
A note on the profanity filter. In my opinion this is an adult game. I don't think telling someone to go **** themselves should be against the ToS or saying something is bullshit should get your account flagged or banned. I think the profanity filter should be used to block that sort of thing and ignore should be used to block people who are just too offensive for your delicate eyes. That said, I think people harassing other players and/or circumventing the systems in place to irritate and/or troll them should be punished heavily.
This is getting way off topic for this thread I suppose. I just wanted to include some stuff to get around the idea that free trials are just going to lead to horrible things for everyone. I think managed properly they do not have to and implementing systems to do so will also help alleviate some issues with harassment or annoyance of actual players by others. Which in my opinion occurs in every single MMO I have ever played even if it doesn't to me personally.
Kilsin said:
Starting islands or starting area's locked away from the rest of the world actually do more harm than good to a game, especially games like EQ, VG and Pantheon that all have racial starting area's, as they take new players away from their starting lore and harsh introduction into the world and separate them from other players.
I would not personally be in favour of a starting island, I would rather the freedom of starting in your natural racial starting area if we had to have some kind of trial.
I think the discussion was more aimed toward trial accounts then starter areas. I think all starter areas should be the same but trial accounts venture elsewhere, just to weed out spammers.
Rivacom said:
Hieromonk said:
Another idea, VRI can make it simple:
$50 Pantheon Account (w/1 month, 1 char).
$22 month for subscription.
FREE TRIAL KEYS:
When VRI is in a place to handle spurts of growth & control influx, they can then announce FREE trial keys (Friends & Family, Magazine, MMO Site, etc). Except those people start on a starter island, similar to EQ2. These FREE trial players will have a different history of their beginning days. But within a few levels get dumped off in a starter cities sewers... and left to make something of themselves, like the rest of us.
This brief separation allows for role playing aspect of tons of massive influx of people who die off quickly... to be far from view of paying members. Whom should be shielded from errant noobie names, & lvl 1 griefers, etc.
The idea of a FREE starter island allows VRI to offer FREE trials keys as they see fit. Which easily allows them to control the influx of actual players landing in the paying world. While also giving a good chance to holt & filtering out the many boters & farmers & hackers & Goonies, trying to capitalize on Pantheon.
Packages and Savings: (@ $22/month rate)
1 Year Subscription to Pantheon $240 ($264) + $24 savings
2 Year Subscription to Pantheon $460 ($528) + $68 savings
3 Year Subscription to Pantheon $699 ($792) + $92 savings
Additional Characters $25
I like the island idea, that would probably work well for most players.
As for the yearly subscription. Don't get me wrong, I want to see this game do really well. But how many yearly sub based games have we seen flop the same month they are released. I don't even think I can count on one hand. And that's the issue. Yes I want to help VRi develop a create guy, yes i'll probably contribute to them more then I would to any other game. But I'm not about to drop couple hundred dollars in 1 day on a game that isn't finished. Heck look at games like ESO, great story, ok gameplay, you hit gameplay and it's done. What if I had sub'd for ayear? I barely played a month. I'd be out more money that I could of used toward other games.
If you look, it says Packages and savings, not yearly subscriptions.
They are a discount. Meaning, if people want to save MONEY, instead of paying by the month, they can pay upfront and get an additional saving. EQ was like this, as i never PAYED monthly I bought 6 month increments, w/discount.
Hieromonk said:
Rivacom said:
Hieromonk said:
Another idea, VRI can make it simple:
$50 Pantheon Account (w/1 month, 1 char).
$22 month for subscription.
FREE TRIAL KEYS:
When VRI is in a place to handle spurts of growth & control influx, they can then announce FREE trial keys (Friends & Family, Magazine, MMO Site, etc). Except those people start on a starter island, similar to EQ2. These FREE trial players will have a different history of their beginning days. But within a few levels get dumped off in a starter cities sewers... and left to make something of themselves, like the rest of us.
This brief separation allows for role playing aspect of tons of massive influx of people who die off quickly... to be far from view of paying members. Whom should be shielded from errant noobie names, & lvl 1 griefers, etc.
The idea of a FREE starter island allows VRI to offer FREE trials keys as they see fit. Which easily allows them to control the influx of actual players landing in the paying world. While also giving a good chance to holt & filtering out the many boters & farmers & hackers & Goonies, trying to capitalize on Pantheon.
Packages and Savings: (@ $22/month rate)
1 Year Subscription to Pantheon $240 ($264) + $24 savings
2 Year Subscription to Pantheon $460 ($528) + $68 savings
3 Year Subscription to Pantheon $699 ($792) + $92 savings
Additional Characters $25
I like the island idea, that would probably work well for most players.
As for the yearly subscription. Don't get me wrong, I want to see this game do really well. But how many yearly sub based games have we seen flop the same month they are released. I don't even think I can count on one hand. And that's the issue. Yes I want to help VRi develop a create guy, yes i'll probably contribute to them more then I would to any other game. But I'm not about to drop couple hundred dollars in 1 day on a game that isn't finished. Heck look at games like ESO, great story, ok gameplay, you hit gameplay and it's done. What if I had sub'd for ayear? I barely played a month. I'd be out more money that I could of used toward other games.
If you look, it says Packages and savings, not yearly subscriptions.
They are a discount. Meaning, if people want to save MONEY, instead of paying by the month, they can pay upfront and get an additional saving. EQ was like this, as i never PAYED monthly I bought 6 month increments, w/discount.
I guess I'm confused on how that's different? Most anything subscription based does yearly at a discount because they are grabbing more money upfront from you. Your still paying for a year of subscription at once. And as I said, With most of the flip flop mmo games lately, paying yearly to 3 years seems a tad risky these days. However Your right, the discounts are nice for those who know they are going to actively be playing for years.
Kilsin said:
Starting islands or starting area's locked away from the rest of the world actually do more harm than good to a game, especially games like EQ, VG and Pantheon that all have racial starting area's, as they take new players away from their starting lore and harsh introduction into the world and separate them from other players.
I would not personally be in favour of a starting island, I would rather the freedom of starting in your natural racial starting area if we had to have some kind of trial.
I don't think you invested enough thought into my idea...
Yes you are correct in what a non-paying starter Island does, but you didn't listen to what the island does for YOU, and for other paying members. The island isn't for paying members of Pantheon, it is for the masses and masses and masses of FREE PEOPLE that will want a taste of this elusive game once it goes live. Understand.?
All players start in their starting city, except those who are on a free trial, whom soon get dumped off in their starting city (lvl 3'ish).
Please read entire posts mate, words mean things. All my ideas are vetted with many outcomes and probabilities, they are not off-the-cuff ideas. You can't dismantle my idea, because it is near perfect for what is intended. It takes incredible amounts of time to cover all aspects of a single idea before releasing it to the public. Not everyone spews endless ideas without thought.
So, interested "Joe Public" has to decide, either wait for a starter island pass/trial/ticket, or buy the game. (Beggars can not be choosers Kilsin)
Rivacom said:
I guess I'm confused on how that's different? Most anything subscription based does yearly at a discount because they are grabbing more money upfront from you. Your still paying for a year of subscription at once. And as I said, With most of the flip flop mmo games lately, paying yearly to 3 years seems a tad risky these days. However Your right, the discounts are nice for those who know they are going to actively be playing for years.
Now I am confused...
Either you are suggesting that people don't know how to take advantage of a discount, or you don't think people have the money to pay 3 year to a game..? I am confused here, as to your point. It is their choice... and giving people payment options is good.
Secondly, YES there are risks.
But that is with anything and if someone feels a 3-year upfront subscription to Pantheon is too much of a risk, then that is why I also suggested a 2-year, and 1-year (and even 6 mo) subscriptions w/discount.
The more risk you take, the greater the discount (%)
BTW.. that is called incentive^.
Hieromonk said:
Kilsin said:
Starting islands or starting area's locked away from the rest of the world actually do more harm than good to a game, especially games like EQ, VG and Pantheon that all have racial starting area's, as they take new players away from their starting lore and harsh introduction into the world and separate them from other players.
I would not personally be in favour of a starting island, I would rather the freedom of starting in your natural racial starting area if we had to have some kind of trial.
I don't think you invested enough thought into my idea...
Yes you are correct in what a non-paying starter Island does, but you didn't listen to what the island does for YOU, and for other paying members. The island isn't for paying members of Pantheon, it is for the masses and masses and masses of FREE PEOPLE that will want a taste of this elusive game once it goes live. Understand.?
All players start in their starting city, except those who are on a free trial, whom soon get dumped off in their starting city (lvl 3'ish).
Please read entire posts mate, words mean things. All my ideas are vetted with many outcomes and probabilities, they are not off-the-cuff ideas. You can't dismantle my idea, because it is near perfect for what is intended. It takes incredible amounts of time to cover all aspects of a single idea before releasing it to the public. Not everyone spews endless ideas without thought.
So, interested "Joe Public" has to decide, either wait for a starter island pass/trial/ticket, or buy the game. (Beggars can not be choosers Kilsin)
I had read your post fully, acknowledged your idea, politely listened to your opinion and then replied with my own opinion and experience with a system like this that ruined several games that I enjoyed, one of them was VG a game that Pantheon is being based on (along with EQ). (also note that I didn't directly quote you as I was speaking generally and not replying to your post but since you quoted me directly and called me out, I will reply)
Your "vetted outcomes and probabilities" clearly didn't take into consideration all possible outcomes or cover enough of the negatives because the game breaking and community dividing result of forcing free trial members onto their own island or closed off area has a bigger negative impact on the game as a whole. This not only takes away from the experience and immersion but it creates a false view of the game from an artificial area, which you cannot capture the games true essence in one locked trial chunk/island and therefore we could lose more sales due to their opinion of the game not being satisfactory and therefore we could be pushing them to generate negative reviews which could have a much larger financial impact on us than people expect.
We have social media platforms such YouTube and Twitch these days that do a great job of showing off the game to interested players, kind of like a visual trial to give the players a good look into the game and what to expect, so to then force them away from sight and into a restricted area would be unwise from not only a business perspective but also a social/community perspective.
It is also pretty arrogant to try and claim that your idea is near perfect and then accuse me of not reading properly because I didn't agree with it, especially when I was quite easily able to find a flaw in that system and so quickly I might add, due to previous experience with it in other games and seeing evidence of it failing and understanding why it failed.
I don't appreciate your tone either Hieromonk, everyone on these forums has a right to their opinion and you must respect that freedom. You can disagree by all means but please don't try and shut people down by forcing your opinion or idea's onto them or by claiming your opinion/idea's are somehow better than everyone else's and that if they don't agree with it, then they must not have read your post or fail to understand words properly, that is not only incorrect but also a very antisocial insinuation.
Pantheon may not even include a free trial, it is still being decided internally but if we go with a free trial, it will most likely be exactly how Brad has described it publicly, which is a no restrictions timed or level capped trial for a short time, then a subscription would be required to continue. Restricting a new player to an artificial island or locked area to try the game before they buy is not giving them a taste of the actual game, it's giving them a taste of a trial section and could result in lost revenue.
I appreciate your idea's and opinion, please keep them coming but just keep in mind that your idea's and opinions won't always be accepted or agreed with by other community members and there are polite and more social ways to debate opinions/idea's than just rejecting someones idea and telling them that in your opinion, they are wrong.
Hieromonk said:
Rivacom said:
I guess I'm confused on how that's different? Most anything subscription based does yearly at a discount because they are grabbing more money upfront from you. Your still paying for a year of subscription at once. And as I said, With most of the flip flop mmo games lately, paying yearly to 3 years seems a tad risky these days. However Your right, the discounts are nice for those who know they are going to actively be playing for years.
Now I am confused...
Either you are suggesting that people don't know how to take advantage of a discount, or you don't think people have the money to pay 3 year to a game..? I am confused here, as to your point. It is their choice... and giving people payment options is good.
Secondly, YES there are risks.
But that is with anything and if someone feels a 3-year upfront subscription to Pantheon is too much of a risk, then that is why I also suggested a 2-year, and 1-year (and even 6 mo) subscriptions w/discount.
The more risk you take, the greater the discount (%)
BTW.. that is called incentive^.
Similar to Kil's opinion on your starter island, I wasn't commenting on the discount value within a the additional subs, most companies do this from gaming to web hosts. However my comment was my experience in the past with games offering, anything more then a 1-3 month sub. And usually it isn't very good.
Aradune said:
It's definitely an interesting topic. I always hesitate to reply because I don't want to look like a money-grabber or something, but what if we did charge $20 or $25 a month AND we also used that income to give you guys a better experience and a deeper world and *more* content? We could do monthly updates that would have a lot more to them -- same with full Expansions every 9-12 months. Would Pantheon's target audience want this?
It sounds reasonable to me, but I was paying $30 a month for EQ. I always think in terms of how much I am playing compared to the amount of time I spend. A TV show on Amazon is a couple bucks and lasts an hour. I play most MMORPGs more than 15 hours a month so it is actually cheaper entertainment.
Anaksuun said:
I would not have an issue paying $20-25 per account. More than that is going to be pushing it for people like me who are married but on a single income. Over $50 per month would be more than we could afford.
That is completely understandable Anaksuun. $50 a month would be a lot more than most people could or would want to afford in my opinion. According to these forums a lot of people would be willing to accept the 20-25 a month per account. Though I know people will be having multiple accounts per family and that could get pretty expensive pretty quickly.
Maybe they could have a plan for families where multiple accounts could cost a bit less to help out families. I know my wife, my son, maybe my daughter, and myself would be waiting to play and at $25 an account... $100 a month could be pretty pricy for a game lol...
I would honestly only charge the same amount as any current subscription based game on the market. I also dislike starting islands. The reason I dislike these are because how they were implemented in Vanguard and I disliked them honestly when EQ2 was released. EQ2 starting was terrible compared to EQ1. My favorite zone to this day even as small as it was is Surefall glade. I couldn't tell you very much about EQ2 starting island or Vanguard and I played through both of them tons of times compared to the starting areas of VG and EQ1. I could probably explain each quest and what is happening in my races home city.
I agree most would pay more money I just don't believe you would get players initially to sign up and try out a game that charges $5-10 more then the average monthly subscription.
If you started a brand new EQ1 server with additional content released at the same time frame as the old game. You could charge more money to play on this server.
If you recreated Vanguard you could charge more money.
This is because I believe players already know exactly what they are paying for. A new game I don't think would bring that many new players in and the old players would leave honestly earlier if the game didn't live up to expectations sooner with a higher monthly subscription.
Well, buy the game for $50 and get 1 month free or something like that imo.That should give people blood on the tooth for more. And then smack them with a $20-$25/month subscription fee.
I do believe that is the way to go. :)
Rallyd said:
I am against server transfers, name changes, pretty much anything that is immersion breaking. If I start on a server and work myself into a bad reputation, I should never be able to just transfer to a different one every 7 days, even every 30 days... maybe once a year... I do understand some small need for the service that is legitimate, like you started in the wrong place and you're already level 20 and then u find ur friends are playing on a diff server. Name changes should NEVER be allowed.
As far as cash shop goes.. please for the love of all that is holy don't have anything that can be purchased for in-game use. I don't care if it's cosmetic, a fluff pet, a fluff mount skin.. All of that is so incredibly immersion breaking. Not to mention the fact that we have seen before, and I do not trust gaming companies to make sure it doesn't happen again, where something they sold such as a skin for a mount made them move slightly faster or have a bigger hitbox because something was slightly off... causing you to feel if you didn't have it you were at a disadvantage.
I trust VRi to make a good/fun game, I don't trust any company to not find a way to pad their pockets by giving someone who pays an advantage these days.
Trouble with the name change thing, is if you are obliged to transfer due to overcrowding..and the next server you get ..your name has been taken, you are obliged to change the name that your friends know you by.
I choose names that I have made out of my imagination ..not books, not copying movies. It still happens occasionally to me. So what needs to take place then, is ..under no circumstances, on ANY server, can that name be used again, once implemented on someone's character...not unless it is deleted from the system. Otherwise that whole ..never change your name thing won't work.
Cana
CanadinaXegony said:
Rallyd said:
I am against server transfers, name changes, pretty much anything that is immersion breaking. If I start on a server and work myself into a bad reputation, I should never be able to just transfer to a different one every 7 days, even every 30 days... maybe once a year... I do understand some small need for the service that is legitimate, like you started in the wrong place and you're already level 20 and then u find ur friends are playing on a diff server. Name changes should NEVER be allowed.
As far as cash shop goes.. please for the love of all that is holy don't have anything that can be purchased for in-game use. I don't care if it's cosmetic, a fluff pet, a fluff mount skin.. All of that is so incredibly immersion breaking. Not to mention the fact that we have seen before, and I do not trust gaming companies to make sure it doesn't happen again, where something they sold such as a skin for a mount made them move slightly faster or have a bigger hitbox because something was slightly off... causing you to feel if you didn't have it you were at a disadvantage.
I trust VRi to make a good/fun game, I don't trust any company to not find a way to pad their pockets by giving someone who pays an advantage these days.
Trouble with the name change thing, is if you are obliged to transfer due to overcrowding..and the next server you get ..your name has been taken, you are obliged to change the name that your friends know you by.
I choose names that I have made out of my imagination ..not books, not copying movies. It still happens occasionally to me. So what needs to take place then, is ..under no circumstances, on ANY server, can that name be used again, once implemented on someone's character...not unless it is deleted from the system. Otherwise that whole ..never change your name thing won't work.
Cana
I think it would be pretty easy to put in a check before you transfer if the name was already taken. But I agree, i've run into this situation more then once.
$15 a month: Standard norm, standard expectations for MMO development, content releases, expansions, GM interaction, etc. Expansions 6 months - 1 year
$20/month: What are the expectations? GM Events Weekly? Added Content/Quests/Items? Expansions 3-6 months?
$25/month: Expansions 2-3 months? GM Events Daily?
$30/month: Expansions 2 months? Multiple GM Events a day?
$40/month: Expansions 1 month? GM Events through the day?
$50/month: Expansions 15 days? GMs don't sleep?
Obviously I'm using a bit of hyperbole here, but I still think everyone is overlooking one major factor - everyone on these boards are pretty much already a huge supporter and are willing to support not only the developers, but the game's success - so the dollar amount doesn't seem to be as big of a deal.
However, outside these boards, Player expectations for higher subscription rates would be higher and ultimately more staff would need to be hired to compensate - more GM events, more content released, quicker expansions, etc; and if those expectations aren't met, people will scream at being ripped off, which ultimately could affect the bottom line by paying more staff salaries and by potentially losing subscriptions by not meeting increased (outlandish) expectations.
Raidan said:
$50/month: Expansions 15 days? GMs don't sleep?
At least the $50 bucks a month would help cover the GM's caffeine addiction to solve the no sleep issue