The price isn't there to eliminate anything it is to provide more content updates...etc.
I mean no offense to VR but when has this ever been true. I have never seen a mmo company release more because they where making more money. Sure when a company is not making enough they might scale back on content but they are not doubling the expansion rate because they doubled there sub count.
Xonth said:
The price isn't there to eliminate anything it is to provide more content updates...etc.
I mean no offense to VR but when has this ever been true. I have never seen a mmo company release more because they where making more money. Sure when a company is not making enough they might scale back on content but they are not doubling the expansion rate because they doubled there sub count.
Oh I am sure you didn't mean any offense, and the reason I stated what you have quoted there, was I was referencing what Aradune had said
"
It's definitely an interesting topic. I always hesitate to reply because I don't want to look like a money-grabber or something, but what if we did charge $20 or $25 a month AND we also used that income to give you guys a better experience and a deeper world and *more* content? We could do monthly updates that would have a lot more to them -- same with full Expansions every 9-12 months. Would Pantheon's target audience want this?
____________________________________ - end quote
I am sure as time goes by...things can be tweaked and adjusted to run smoothly and keep the gamers happy with the result. As was stated before there's still a long while before release, and "nothing is written in stone, all is subject to change". Which is a good thing, because it allows folks like you and me to give our feedback. :)
Cana
Please keep in mind we are just wanting to promote discussion on this topic, we have no intention of raising the subscription level to something ridiculous that will drive potential customers away.
If we raise the monthly fee from the average $15 to something slightly higher, it will only be after very thorough research and business advice, it won't be on a whim or a move that would upset our core target audience, I just want to clear that up right now.
We will be subscription based with no cash shop, we may have a merch store for Pantheon/VRI merchandise and cosmetic fluff items for extra revenue but that will most likely be all and nothing we sell will give you an advantage in game, so our subscription fee must be sustainable so we can continue to produce quality and on going content and support to the game and the community.
So please don't get upset and think they we are money grabbing or thinking of going ahead with an increase, we just want to hear what our core target audience and main supporter/community members have to say first while we look at all the possibilities going forward.
Nothing is promised or set in stone yet, we just want your input. :)
Kilsin said:
Please keep in mind we are just wanting to promote discussion on this topic, we have no intention of raising the subscription level to something ridiculous that will drive potential customers away.
If we raise the monthly fee from the average $15 to something slightly higher, it will only be after very thorough research and business advice, it won't be on a whim or a move that would upset our core target audience, I just want to clear that up right now.
We will be subscription based with no cash shop, we may have a merch store for Pantheon/VRI merchandise and cosmetic fluff items for extra revenue but that will most likely be all and nothing we sell will give you an advantage in game, so our subscription fee must be sustainable so we can continue to produce quality and on going content and support to the game and the community.
So please don't get upset and think they we are money grabbing or thinking of going ahead with an increase, we just want to hear what our core target audience and main supporter/community members have to say first while we look at all the possibilities going forward.
Nothing is promised or set in stone yet, we just want your input. :)
This alone^ illustrates VRi is listening.
Size of Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen
No impassioned World Builder wants 12 million lunatics playing their game, they want to surround themselves with like-minded peeps, who want to share the story. VRi presents a broad enough game, to entice nearly any veteran WoW-player, who is in their 30s now, and has no prob dropping $300/year on a weekend hobby.
Check out any forum, it is stuffed with people who have graduated from World of Warcraft. VRI may have it's sights on just 300,000 of them. But their strategy most likely is, not all those people at once. Pantheon needs to grow slowly, like EQ/EVE.
Coincidentally, it doesn't matter if people don't like the price of Pantheon (if it where to be, say $25/month), they would have no choice. Sit on the sidelines and listen to the Fallen's stories... or become one of the Fallen & make your own stories..!
Evercrack ruined marriages... it was the cheapest drug of the new century.
Brad is a sadist...
There's nothing wrong with a $15 subscription. But with how expensive game development is nowadays, it should be more.
The easy solution is 'FREEDOM TO CHOOSE!"
Have a minimum subscription amount and allow users to set their own subscription amounts for more per month. Easy solution. Most will pay the minimum, but those who are truly serious about wanting longevity and wanting to contribute will gladly pay more.
If you have 100,000 people paying $15/m = $1.5million/year
Let's say you have an additional 30,000 people paying $20/m = $600,000 /year
Let's say you have 5,000 people paying $30/m = $150,000
This will make VRI more money without VRI receiving the negative perception many have about "greedy game design companies."
Freedom is never a bad thing. The additional small trickles of money from people willing to pay more than the minimum is a nice little boost in funding, and most of those people will be the ones who plan on staying for years a time.
I've always thought the 15 dollars a month wasn't for Expansion development in any MMO company. It's suppose to fund hardware costs and continue maintenance/patches of the game. So I could see how maybe the extra cash might give them a oppotunity to hire help for future upgrades. But again, we hit the would raising the price push people away? I think again the only way to get extra cash above that 15 is to offer something for each tier you pay, but without giving too much away, what can you do?
I have no problem paying 20-25 dollars for a game every month if the content keeps coming out. I much rather pay a higher subscription fee than see some stupid cash shop that ruins immersion. I'd love to see a game with live GMs / Guides again to help players and maybe run some events. That would be worth more money to me as well.
I do have friends who may be hesitant about paying more than 15 to 20 dollars given their monthly budgets. And I understand 25 dollars to someone who maybe only has 10 hours a month to play could be seen as not worth it. I myself will be on the game when I'm not at work, sleeping, or with the girlfriend.
Honestly, I am for a fair price and the market has set that "fair" price at $15 a month. I could be convinced to pay a little bit more, say $20 a month if Brad puts "camp" xp into the game, hint - hint. I truly believe that charging more than $15 a month will be a turn off for all but the die-hard fans. I am with Kilsin on this one. Careful market research needs to be done before a price is set.
Just a little aside - When I first started playing EQOA back in late 03 - early 04, the monthly fee was $9.99. They later increased the fee to $14.99 a month and while I wasn't happy about it, I was still willing to pay it. A large portion of the MMO industry is shying away from monthly fees in favor of cash shops, so I am quite happy about Pantheon being a sub model.
A dose of reality:
Casual players don not seek out, or play oldschool MMORPGs. So why would anyone base their argument around those people, or ask that such a company focus their game for them. VRi is making a game world that others will graduate to, from the games they currently play. Big League.
Pantheon can.. turn off (upset) all the "die-hard fans of mmorpgs" they want, because even if these People are angered (at the price), it will not stop them from subscribing, or playing. Not-to-mention... are there any die hard fans here complaining about the price? I see everyone willing to pay $15~$25/month. Or are many here still talking/thinking about these imaginary others, that you think wont subscribe because a happy meal is more important..? Lets be real...
Honestly, what else offers so much inexpensive fun?
You will pay more for Bowling on a Friday night... Or a stop off at Applebee's... than you will for a month of Pantheon. So, if you can't afford to go bowling once a month, (*sigh*).. or somehow $20 bucks sets your lifestyle back... chances are You've been complaining about everything in your life for years. It isn't about money, it is about the penny-pinchers trying to save even more money.
I don't care what the cost of Pantheon is to me, I have a job and $300 a year on a hobby won't kill me. A subscription wasn't a problem for me, or 500k others 16 years ago... nor my neighbors kid, who shovel snow and cut grass just to pay his dad, for his internet connection and subscription.
Don't see how it should be a problem today...
First I think its very important not to categorize this game as a niche game. Most data I have found shows that Everquest had nearly 500,000 subs in an era when online gaming was not a social norm. In fact the idea of paying a monthly subscription for a game, playing a game online, and a the time commitment EQ demanded were all things that worked against it. I think day one with very little marketing this game will easily have 2 million purchases and that's with simple word of mouth plus streaming. That is a far cry from what I would consider a niche product.
The topic at hand is a very interesting one because like yourself I have no issue paying more for a subscription based on the value. We live in a world where subscriptions are a normal part of daily life. I myself subscribe to netflix, amazon prime, audible, and playstation plus. I feel that asking twenty dollars a month is nothing that would be frowned upon within the community and if you add extra content that is fine. I think committing to timelines is a bad idea by announcing that you will have an expansion every 9 months because this can create unrealistic goals while also pushing out subpar content to meet deadlines. One solution would be to simply move away from a standard expansion model and just have expansions be part of the subscription.
I really don't think the monetary amount is the issue, but more the expectations that come from that dollar amount. I'll repeat my earlier thoughts and clarify a bit. Most people could pay 14.99, 19.99, 29.99, 39.99, 49.99, etc. However, the standard accepted norm would be $14.99. Anything higher than that norm would come with the expectation of more results. If those results were not satisfied, you would begin to have an uproar from the community and ultimately an exodus. Unless some major capitol comes in soon - I do not think it is wise to set the bar so high with a small group of developers to be able to continually pump out the content post-release that would be demanded of a higher subscription especially (and no offense is meant to be given here) when this would be the first MMO experience that many of the developers would have.
However, like any MMO, if Pantheon launches at 14.99 and has a good enough "hook" to keep people wanting more let's say at a year or greater, then upping the subscription at that point to 19.99 with the promise of more content would be arguably the better option. Once someone has "bought in," you'll lose a lot less to a higher subscription than outright starting with the highest subscription model to be released. Further, you may have gained a little trust from the community that if 14.99 produced X content and I'm being promised more with 19.99 - I'll gladly pay it.
This would also allow some of the newer developers to get their a solid year under their belt of managing the released MMO and the expectations that come with it. Regardless, if Pantheon doesn't deliver on an increased subscription and people become bored, etc., you would have lost the 14.99 or 19.99 customers anyway.
Kilsin said:
.....
We will be subscription based with no cash shop, we may have a merch store for Pantheon/VRI merchandise and cosmetic fluff items for extra revenue.......
I am hoping there is no sale of any in game item. Earlier in the thread, when I said I would pay more than the standard 14.99, I was assuming there would be no cash shop ( I consider cosmetic in-game items a cash shop item) . I would pay a lot extra to play a game with no cash shop. If there is a cash shop, then then I would revert back to the normal sub price (14.99).
Zarriya said:
Kilsin said:
.....
We will be subscription based with no cash shop, we may have a merch store for Pantheon/VRI merchandise and cosmetic fluff items for extra revenue.......
I am hoping there is no sale of any in game item. Earlier in the thread, when I said I would pay more than the standard 14.99, I was assuming there would be no cash shop ( I consider cosmetic in-game items a cash shop item) . I would pay a lot extra to play a game with no cash shop. If there is a cash shop, then then I would revert back to the normal sub price (14.99).
Agreed 100%....any cash shop with in game items what so ever and I will be hard pressed to sub at all. I understand the need for revenue flow but I dont in any way shape or form like cash shops
Before I posted this thread, my wife, my brother, and myself were having a long conversation about the game, and we ultimately came to the topic about the game actually funding or making enough money to pay for itself. The increased price idea wasn't even from me, it was from my brother. I was highly against the increased price idea when we first started talking about it, though my brother and wife asked me to think about the alternatives.
And that's what I did...
What I needed to realize was that I wanted this game to happen. This game is the only of it's kind that is in development right now. This is the only hope that I have personally, that will bring back the memories of old. When all I could think about all day at work was getting home to play, when the game made you think about where you needed to go and what you needed to do, when the game made you use your head and sense of direction, when the game gave you time to talk with and get to know one another, when every piece armor that dropped from a mob was celebrated and not brushed off as worthless, when the land was so vast and full of danger that even traveling from one place to another could make your heart race in fear of dying, when the game punished you for foolish mistakes, when people helped each other, when people counted on one another, when belonging to a guild mattered, when you felt like you belonged, and when people befriended you not because of your dps, however for your personality and your company.
These are the things I remember and experienced so long ago and haven't felt or experienced in a long time past. I not only want these experiences and feeling for just myself, though also for my children, and as many others who can. The simple reason is that it molds people that want to work together and not against one another, people that help each other and not belittle each other, people with common respect for one another as they know the hardships you have endured as they endured those same hardships.
Without a game like this we will continue to see what we have all seen in the last 10 years of the MMO gaming world. A lot of the big companies making games to appeal to the whiny masses that don't know what a real game is all about. They will continue until they milk every last dollar they can get out it and then drop it to the ground like a dead tree, left to rot away and never to return as it once was.
We all know that in a lot of respects you get what you pay for and when you're looking for or expecting free, you usually find that level of quality and refinement. The same can be said when you spend a little more, the quality and craftsmanship go up, and if that item can be held so to speak; you can feel that it was well made with a lot of thought, hard work, and even sometimes love.
There hasn't been a game like this for years.... and if Pantheon doesn't make it, there may never be another like it. This game has to happen at all costs... Not just for us, though for the future of community of gaming in my opinion. I write these words with some selfishness I admit, though not entirely as I do sincerely want others to have the chance to experience what we were so lucky to experience.
So what I'm asking you is... What alternatives do we have? Are we willing to do whatever it takes to make this work? How bad we really want this game to happen? Is the money the real obstacle here or are we just not conveying the message well enough that is plain and simple; this could be our last hope.
Niien said:
Before I posted this thread, my wife, my brother, and myself were having a long conversation about the game, and we ultimately came to the topic about the game actually funding or making enough money to pay for itself. The increased price idea wasn't even from me, it was from my brother. I was highly against the increased price idea when we first started talking about it, though my brother and wife asked me to think about the alternatives.
And that's what I did...
What I needed to realize was that I wanted this game to happen. This game is the only of it's kind that is in development right now. This is the only hope that I have personally, that will bring back the memories of old. When all I could think about all day at work was getting home to play, when the game made you think about where you needed to go and what you needed to do, when the game made you use your head and sense of direction, when the game gave you time to talk with and get to know one another, when every piece armor that dropped from a mob was celebrated and not brushed off as worthless, when the land was so vast and full of danger that even traveling from one place to another could make your heart race in fear of dying, when the game punished you for foolish mistakes, when people helped each other, when people counted on one another, when belonging to a guild mattered, when you felt like you belonged, and when people befriended you not because of your dps, however for your personality and your company.
These are the things I remember and experienced so long ago and haven't felt or experienced in a long time past. I not only want these experiences and feeling for just myself, though also for my children, and as many others who can. The simple reason is that it molds people that want to work together and not against one another, people that help each other and not belittle each other, people with common respect for one another as they know the hardships you have endured as they endured those same hardships.
Without a game like this we will continue to see what we have all seen in the last 10 years of the MMO gaming world. A lot of the big companies making games to appeal to the whiny masses that don't know what a real game is all about. They will continue until they milk every last dollar they can get out it and then drop it to the ground like a dead tree, left to rot away and never to return as it once was.
We all know that in a lot of respects you get what you pay for and when you're looking for or expecting free, you usually find that level of quality and refinement. The same can be said when you spend a little more, the quality and craftsmanship go up, and if that item can be held so to speak; you can feel that it was well made with a lot of thought, hard work, and even sometimes love.
There hasn't been a game like this for years.... and if Pantheon doesn't make it, there may never be another like it. This game has to happen at all costs... Not just for us, though for the future of community of gaming in my opinion. I write these words with some selfishness I admit, though not entirely as I do sincerely want others to have the chance to experience what we were so lucky to experience.
So what I'm asking you is... What alternatives do we have? Are we willing to do whatever it takes to make this work? How bad we really want this game to happen? Is the money the real obstacle here or are we just not conveying the message well enough that is plain and simple; this could be our last hope.
While I share your concerns and sentiments. Financially i'm not in a great place right now, and the increased cost of a subscription would not benefit me. However, i believe the solution is allowing players to choose how much they wish to pay on their subscriptions, and of course, $15.00/m should be the minumum payment.
I can agree with a box sale+subscription. (IMO 19-24.99 monthly is a good number IF you give timely content updates etc). HOWEVER no cash shop BUT services like name changes, server transfers, extra character slots etc SHOULD cost a fee. I am an avid gamer but I also own a business so I understand the need to maximize profit (as long as its not at the expense of the game).
Strykr619 said:
I can agree with a box sale+subscription. (IMO 19-24.99 monthly is a good number IF you give timely content updates etc). HOWEVER no cash shop BUT services like name changes, server transfers, extra character slots etc SHOULD cost a fee. I am an avid gamer but I also own a business so I understand the need to maximize profit (as long as its not at the expense of the game).
I just hope we will never see name changes allowed.
If I know a name is connected to a person I don't want to be interacting with (for whatever reason) I don't want that person to be able to change name. The reputation you have on a server should stay with you forever, if it's bad, then it's time to either start the work to rebuild your reputation, stay as a is or start a new toon.
Edit: fixed some format stuff.. like font size :)
Zarriya said:
Kilsin said:
.....
We will be subscription based with no cash shop, we may have a merch store for Pantheon/VRI merchandise and cosmetic fluff items for extra revenue.......I am hoping there is no sale of any in game item. Earlier in the thread, when I said I would pay more than the standard 14.99, I was assuming there would be no cash shop ( I consider cosmetic in-game items a cash shop item) . I would pay a lot extra to play a game with no cash shop. If there is a cash shop, then then I would revert back to the normal sub price (14.99).
I have to say seeing people in purchased "fluff" items really killed it for me in EQ2 when I came back a few years after my main playing. Everything seemed so fake. That level 10 berserker running around with a glowing sword, that rangers got a candy cane sword over there, and the vanity pets >.< please god spare me the vanity pets...
Now you might be referring to things like hats, t-shirts, posters... out of game items I have no problem with.
Xonth said:
Zarriya said:
Kilsin said:
.....
We will be subscription based with no cash shop, we may have a merch store for Pantheon/VRI merchandise and cosmetic fluff items for extra revenue.......I am hoping there is no sale of any in game item. Earlier in the thread, when I said I would pay more than the standard 14.99, I was assuming there would be no cash shop ( I consider cosmetic in-game items a cash shop item) . I would pay a lot extra to play a game with no cash shop. If there is a cash shop, then then I would revert back to the normal sub price (14.99).
I have to say seeing people in purchased "fluff" items really killed it for me in EQ2 when I came back a few years after my main playing. Everything seemed so fake. That level 10 berserker running around with a glowing sword, that rangers got a candy cane sword over there, and the vanity pets >.< please god spare me the vanity pets...
Now you might be referring to things like hats, t-shirts, posters... out of game items I have no problem with.
It kills it for me too, I wasn't referring to over the top hot pink bikini's and giant rainbow pets, just simple lore friendly things like cloaks, rings, Merch like T-Shirts, mouse pads, lore books, Concept Art etc. nothing immersion breaking or anything to give an advantage.
Raidan said:
I really don't think the monetary amount is the issue, but more the expectations that come from that dollar amount. I'll repeat my earlier thoughts and clarify a bit. Most people could pay 14.99, 19.99, 29.99, 39.99, 49.99, etc. However, the standard accepted norm would be $14.99. Anything higher than that norm would come with the expectation of more results. If those results were not satisfied, you would begin to have an uproar from the community and ultimately an exodus. Unless some major capitol comes in soon - I do not think it is wise to set the bar so high with a small group of developers to be able to continually pump out the content post-release that would be demanded of a higher subscription especially (and no offense is meant to be given here) when this would be the first MMO experience that many of the developers would have.
However, like any MMO, if Pantheon launches at 14.99 and has a good enough "hook" to keep people wanting more let's say at a year or greater, then upping the subscription at that point to 19.99 with the promise of more content would be arguably the better option. Once someone has "bought in," you'll lose a lot less to a higher subscription than outright starting with the highest subscription model to be released. Further, you may have gained a little trust from the community that if 14.99 produced X content and I'm being promised more with 19.99 - I'll gladly pay it.
This would also allow some of the newer developers to get their a solid year under their belt of managing the released MMO and the expectations that come with it. Regardless, if Pantheon doesn't deliver on an increased subscription and people become bored, etc., you would have lost the 14.99 or 19.99 customers anyway.
What about specific servers where you pay that 19.99 for that "extra content" or however that might be set up, if it came to be? Just a thought that popped into my head.
Kilsin said:
Xonth said:
Zarriya said:
Kilsin said:
.....
We will be subscription based with no cash shop, we may have a merch store for Pantheon/VRI merchandise and cosmetic fluff items for extra revenue.......I am hoping there is no sale of any in game item. Earlier in the thread, when I said I would pay more than the standard 14.99, I was assuming there would be no cash shop ( I consider cosmetic in-game items a cash shop item) . I would pay a lot extra to play a game with no cash shop. If there is a cash shop, then then I would revert back to the normal sub price (14.99).
I have to say seeing people in purchased "fluff" items really killed it for me in EQ2 when I came back a few years after my main playing. Everything seemed so fake. That level 10 berserker running around with a glowing sword, that rangers got a candy cane sword over there, and the vanity pets >.< please god spare me the vanity pets...
Now you might be referring to things like hats, t-shirts, posters... out of game items I have no problem with.
It kills it for me too, I wasn't referring to over the top hot pink bikini's and giant rainbow pets, just simple lore friendly things like cloaks, rings, Merch like T-Shirts, mouse pads, lore books, Concept Art etc. nothing immersion breaking or anything to give an advantage.
Yes please, no sparkly "Barbie horses" like in Rift. hehehe
Xanier said:
Agree with Stryker
To transfer data should not cost us 15 bucks... or whatever the price is running now days. If a control on not transferring back and forth is needed then a time lock out is an easy way
Rift blocked you from transferring again ..for seven days. That seemed to work.
I remember the first day after logging in when Planes of Power went live. I met a guy who had played EQ from launch who quit half way through Kunark. He told me he quit because EQ had become candy land. EQ was my first MMO and I didn't understand what he meant. Now I understand. I know giving more stuff seems inevitable to drive player base and I believe it can be, to me, the KEY COMPONENT is that fluff, candy land stuff being EARNED.
The guy was ultimately saying the item earned to work to earn ratio was unequal. many popular games today are so because they give everything for little to no effort and honestly it probably needs to be that way since their is this major concern with appealing to the casual player. Since this is a niche game we should be able to by pass that necessity and use get something awesome for awesome work model