in Every MMO i have played weapons all have a Speed rating and a DMG rating, using these two figures can net you the DPS rating. in EQ this was needed because you spent most of your time Auto-attacking. but in subsequent games auto-attack has been nearly gotten rid of, and the weapon speed did not affect skills.
so here is my thought why cant a Sabre or Epee utilize skills faster than a Greataxe or Claymore? if you think about the physics it would be plausable. swinging a 2lb Epee 10x would cause less blowback to your body than swinging a 100lb Greatmace 10x in the same time period.
I think weapon speed is a must to make it more real VG had it. Just like rogues using a dagger over a hand axe more attacks less damsge per attack but 2 attacks for every 1 and if dagger does little more than half the damage means more damage for the rogue to have dagger. Where say a DK smacking a mob for big numbers slowly with added agro and big number meaning more agro on hate list = good for DK holding agro. Though I'm already guessing this will be in this game just like it was in EQ/VG. I'm also sure there will be more mechs than just those for agro just making it make sense.
in VG the use of a skill reset the weapon speed timer, also the weapon speed didnt affect the use of skills. i dont know about anyone else but on my paladin i Might have gotten 1 auto attack per every 5 skills or so i used, and i could more or less use skills constantly. so weather i was Sword and board tanking or using a 2h soloing the speed of the weapon had no affect on my dmg output, because i used skills so much that autoattack hit the mob the same number of times regardless of weapon speed.
Gawd said:
in VG the use of a skill reset the weapon speed timer, also the weapon speed didnt affect the use of skills. i dont know about anyone else but on my paladin i Might have gotten 1 auto attack per every 5 skills or so i used, and i could more or less use skills constantly. so weather i was Sword and board tanking or using a 2h soloing the speed of the weapon had no affect on my dmg output, because i used skills so much that autoattack hit the mob the same number of times regardless of weapon speed.
Weapon speed was more important in VG than you may think, especially for Melee Lightfighter classes, weapon speed made a huge difference for Rogues too as did weapon type, if I wasn't restricted to daggers at end game I could of used a sword and dagger or axe combo for huge parse numbers due to the slower attack speed of the sword.
I would really like to see weapon speed used again in Pantheon and see the auto attack mechanic as that was also a very big factor in both Melee Lightfighter and Tanks, you would be surprised how much auto attack damage you did on your Pally without knowing it and attack speed played a big part in that as you mentioned.
PS: Nerf Pally 2 hander! ;)
I think weapon speed is important even if it plays no role in ability cool downs. Some people prefer to hit harder but less often while others like to hit more often but for less damage. It's important to know the speed if you're trying to figure out which weapon is "better" for your play style if they happen to have procs. If I'm a tank and have weapons that proc a taunt of similar strength I'd probably go for the faster weapon hoping for more procs for better aggro management.
Personally I would be happy if autoattack played a greater role again. I'm kind of tired of the constant ability hot button mashing. EQ's combat is (to me) enjoyable exactly because its not so much button mashing. Of course there's always a bit of that too, but not so extreme as in other games.
Fullor said:
I think weapon speed is important even if it plays no role in ability cool downs. Some people prefer to hit harder but less often while others like to hit more often but for less damage. It's important to know the speed if you're trying to figure out which weapon is "better" for your play style if they happen to have procs. If I'm a tank and have weapons that proc a taunt of similar strength I'd probably go for the faster weapon hoping for more procs for better aggro management.
I agree.
Sarim said:
Personally I would be happy if autoattack played a greater role again. I'm kind of tired of the constant ability hot button mashing. EQ's combat is (to me) enjoyable exactly because its not so much button mashing. Of course there's always a bit of that too, but not so extreme as in other games.
I agree with this 100%
Sarim said:
Personally I would be happy if autoattack played a greater role again. I'm kind of tired of the constant ability hot button mashing. EQ's combat is (to me) enjoyable exactly because its not so much button mashing. Of course there's always a bit of that too, but not so extreme as in other games.
i also would like to see a return to Strategic combat. soo tired of the skill rotations. i keep hearing players talk about how boring it is to sit and wait to hit a button, but i was more tense in eq waiting to hit that button at the perfect moment than in any game since. i dont see anything exciting about hitting the same 6 or 8 buttons over and over again in the same pattern.
While weapon speeds in games such as VG aren't nearly as important as they were in EQ, they are still fun to have and strategize with to me. Perhaps Pantheon will have them be at least semi relevant. Sometimes it was nice to focus on pure dps when referring to auto attacks so you would choose a weapon with the best damage/delay combo . Sometimes you just wanted to watch your character attack more often, it was cool, so you chose a quicker weapon. Plus, in some groups things died quickly, so if you wanted to get a shot or two in having a faster weapon was good. Other times you might be in a raid and there is lots of lag from so many people around. Times like these a higher delay higher damage weapon can *sometimes* be a better option. Also, sometimes it's fun just to see the higher damage numbers so you choose a higher damage/delay weapon.
In some games you only auto attack when you aren't using abilities and sometimes you will time your special attacks and abilities to be used in between swings. In such cases a higher delay weapon can sometimes make more sense as well. On top of all that, there are sometimes buffs that cause you to have a chance to have a weapon proc with each swing of your weapon. In these times a quicker weapon can possibly be better.
I agree with the commentary on the addition to strategy of having different weapon speeds - and for a certainty agree with the return of some auto-attack that slows down combat.
Anything in the game that makes me think a little more - which is not the same as pushing buttons a little faster... I'm for.
AND - things that give me a little more time to type at people in my group, or friends... that's full of win as well.
I just wanted to echo what many others have been saying about slowing combat down in the physical space and ramping it up in the mental space. Many action games these days have reduced number of actively available abilities, but with much lower cooldowns. If you reduce combat down to a "decisions per second" type metric action combat would force you to choose between say 5-10 separate actions every 2-3 seconds whereas original EQ would force you to choose between 10-20 actions every 5-10 seconds, which are comparable in the "decisions per second", but its really the types of decisions you're making that makes the difference for me. In EQ and similar games there were alot more options available at any given time but you had more time to decide. For this reason EQ, with its slower pace was no less boring or less engaging. In fact I found it to be much more engaging because the type of thought I was doing in EQ was more strategic, and less reactionary. The thing with reactionary thinking is that it tends to be far less diverse and quickly becomes boring.
Even more - in today's games, the answer to "should I be mashing a button right now?" Is almost invariably always yes.
In EQ, the answer to that question wasn't nearly that cut and dry. If you were a cleric you didn't just mash heals because someone was hurt - because you really had to manage your mana. In fact, in EQ, sometimes the right thing for that cleric to do was to sacrifice someone for the good of the whole group... SORRY DPS dude, you drew agro, and it was either heal you, or heal the tank. We'll rez you shortly.
But it wasn't just healers.
As a ranger, if there was a mob that was a runner, it was often more important for me to stop focusing on attack, and be ready to snare root in an instant - sometimes foregoing DPS abilities altogether if mana was an issue or whatever.
Lots of classes had that sort of dynamic in one regard or another. The general mechanics of the game - of what mobs might or might not do - of managing your resources... those things made combat a mental game, not a twitch game. Your actual ability usage came much slower in EQ in a general sense than they do in today's games.
Today's games, by comparison, have highly scripted fights - where it's not "know the game" it's just "know what to do when in this specific fight" - and there are no longer really any resource concerns / constraints. So today, pauses in ability usage aren't thought based - they are script based... Run in a big circle NOW!
Combat is a coordinated dance in today's games - you don't even really need to pay attention to the mob, you just have to make sure you are doing the dance steps in the right order. And with everyone dancing - there is no time for chatting, community building, etc... WORSE - once you know the dance, and your fingers just do the right thing - now you have tied up fingers, a bored mind, and no chance to do that community building.
Wandidar said:
Even more - in today's games, the answer to "should I be mashing a button right now?" Is almost invariably always yes.
In EQ, the answer to that question wasn't nearly that cut and dry. If you were a cleric you didn't just mash heals because someone was hurt - because you really had to manage your mana. In fact, in EQ, sometimes the right thing for that cleric to do was to sacrifice someone for the good of the whole group... SORRY DPS dude, you drew agro, and it was either heal you, or heal the tank. We'll rez you shortly.
But it wasn't just healers.
As a ranger, if there was a mob that was a runner, it was often more important for me to stop focusing on attack, and be ready to snare root in an instant - sometimes foregoing DPS abilities altogether if mana was an issue or whatever.
Lots of classes had that sort of dynamic in one regard or another. The general mechanics of the game - of what mobs might or might not do - of managing your resources... those things made combat a mental game, not a twitch game. Your actual ability usage came much slower in EQ in a general sense than they do in today's games.
Today's games, by comparison, have highly scripted fights - where it's not "know the game" it's just "know what to do when in this specific fight" - and there are no longer really any resource concerns / constraints. So today, pauses in ability usage aren't thought based - they are script based... Run in a big circle NOW!
Combat is a coordinated dance in today's games - you don't even really need to pay attention to the mob, you just have to make sure you are doing the dance steps in the right order. And with everyone dancing - there is no time for chatting, community building, etc... WORSE - once you know the dance, and your fingers just do the right thing - now you have tied up fingers, a bored mind, and no chance to do that community building.
Dude, get out of my head!
Seems like everything I am thinking you are posting
but yeah, couldnt agree more.
/agree with most of the others, and to add...
Weapon delay is hugely important imho, and trivializing the effect of it was one of the worst initial "balances" that Blizzard did to WoW, and something most WoW-clones also goof up horribly in their effort to eat Blizzard's table scraps.
Using the generic rogue example, examine two cases:
1) Poison - every swing gives a base % to proc a poison. Some kind of DoT/DD poison on one hand, a snare/debuff poison on the other. In this case, you want the fastest daggers available because your auto-attack dmg is secondary to your role in applying those debuffs. In some cases, the group/raid needs you on nothing but debuff, and you want as many attacks per second as you can get.
2) Backstab/ambush/sneak attack - this attack is a straight multiplier of the weapon's base dmg, so in this case, you want the godawful slow, but beastly min dmg, the better to get the biggest return on those abilities. Here, consider the raid encounter with adds. The adds pop, and no more fighting of boss until adds are gone. Now you want huge alpha strikes to burn things down fast.
No one weapon will satisfy both cases equally well...and they shouldn't. Weapon dmg/delay ratios is a massively important combat mechanic imho, and it's a core component in making special attacks special.
The reason this stuff gets "normalized" is because of trying to make PVP work and be fair in a class based PVE system. Please VRI, do not wreck P:RotF with notions of trying make all the classes equally capable in a PVP system that very few people buying this game will care much about. Please, please, please...I beg you, do not go down the road of perpetual PVP balancing, which is the MMO death spiral of suck.
The reason this stuff gets "normalized" is because of trying to make PVP work and be fair in a class based PVE system. Please VRI, do not wreck P:RotF with notions of trying make all the classes equally capable in a PVP system that very few people buying this game will care much about. Please, please, please...I beg you, do not go down the road of perpetual PVP balancing, which is the MMO death spiral of suck.
Just wanted to quote this because its just so much truth
For my money - I think this audience is MOSTLY PvE centric. There is a counter to this game that is trying to cater to full on PvP folks. I'm hoping that the VRI folks don't give one iota of thought to PvP. Let the PvP game do that - because they have no intention of doing PvE. Then, if folks really want - they can play what should be ultimately good PvE content in one game and ultimately good PvP content in the other... rather than content that inevitably gets watered down when devs spend time trying to cater to both.
I know there are some that will disagree with my stance here - who want PvP in Pantheon or whatever - and that's cool. I just know what I personally want out of the game :)
I realize the thread was not about PVP per se, but that is why the very necessary PVE mechanic of weapon dmg/dly ratios gets wrecked...to make "one size wins all" equality in PVP. In a properly immersive class based game, a rogue sneaking up on you totally unaware with the most diabolical weapon they can put in their hand, coated with the most absurd assassination poison they could find, should be able to end your life in a matter of seconds.
Scaling weapons and debuff effects down to accomodate the utterly absurd notion that all classes should be perfectly equal in 1v1 PVP (or any task really) is again what I call the MMO death spiral of suck.
PVP just happens to be the most common cause of weapon nerfs, particularly on high minimum damage, slow weapons for special attacks that multiply by base dmg for their overall effect. People crying about being insta-griefed by serious assassination minded rogues can be thanked for that milquetoast trend in MMO design.
Right after min dmg nerfs, crying PVP'ers typically get any kind of ranged attack nerfed, because they think it's unfair that a wizard could cook a plate wearer inside their own armor without even having a chance to fight back. Yes, it is unfair, and it's SUPPOSED TO BE! Tanks in PVE games are meatshields, not professional 1v1 "gun fighters" who kick ass versus ranged in some mano y mano streetfight.
But focusing on the subject - yes, weapon dmg and delay matter, they should matter a lot, and abilities should be designed such that the delay and min-max-avg dmg of your weapon are a vital component to optimizing/personalizing your character.
With out weapon/attack speeds there is no haste, no slow....whats the point of playing if I cannot be hasted or sowthe mob?
Classes that have haste, and classes that have slow are just another reason you want them in a group, but remove weapon/attack speeds and you remove these effects.
Who here did not have a nerdgasm when their SK got his first mithril two hander?
PvP is another thread..
People call it "auto-attack", but that is not what it is. You are simple toggling on your character's melee attack, or not. (pulling out the weapon, or not). You still have to know your class, be in position to use an ability, while MAINTAINING your attack. Your base attack is based on all the accumulative achievements you've had with your character. All rolled up into how much base dmg you can do. Which can very significantly from another, who does things dfferently in the world. But your base DPS only tells half the story... you have to KNOW how to play that character, that roll.
What good is all that DPS, if you don't taunt the right mob, or using dual wield when you should have a shield..?
DPS was not an issue in EQ, because the game was based on strategy. Therefore, anyone worrying max DPS in Pantheon, will only find equivalent cons to his char's abilities.
That is what rolling the dice is all about... leaving the city in EQ was a gamble, never knew if you'd go too far and die. Never to find your belongings again. But your skills always stayed with you... your ability to handle and weapon you come across stayed with you.. Your DPS wasn't tied to a spell/ability that anyone else has, it comes from you traveling far off to visit a master diver.. to learn how to control your breath during a swing, to use less stamina, etc..
Base damage (ie: auto attack) is a mainstay for any roleplaying game. Much different from Abilities, which are just that... an ability that YOU have to chose when to use. You should already know how to swing a sword, if you are a warrior. But when to kick, or use a shield bash, or to taunt is what makes a Warrior a coveted Warrior. DPS is only half the story.
Just because you don't have weapon speed doesn't mean you can't have haste or slow. You just have to have a base attack speed assigned to the character by some other means than weapons, like attacks per round (ala old D&D) and haste or slow would just modify that. Personally i prefer having weapon speed.
Reht said:
Just because you don't have weapon speed doesn't mean you can't have haste or slow. You just have to have a base attack speed assigned to the character by some other means than weapons, like attacks per round (ala old D&D) and haste or slow would just modify that. Personally i prefer having weapon speed.
I like this idea. Definitely old school but worth considering.
I find combat in EQ to be a lot more on edge than in newer MMOs where you are just button smashing. In EQ you have your skills / spells that you can time in between opponent swings so they don't get interrupted, but otherwise its how fast / hard are you hitting. In newer MMOs its how fast can you push 1 , 2 , 3
I would like to see auto attack , weapon speed and damage make a big comeback though I'm personally not a fan of twitchy combat in MMOs.