I have thought about it and then I thought, just let me use the spells I have on a single shaman.
addmonkey said:I'm really disliking this buff system where you have to keep a skill on the bar or the buff disappears off you and others.
A fair while ago, Joppa told us that this function was going to be changed to allow buffs to remain when the buffer removed the spell from their bar. I have not heard the subject mentioned since then. I do not know if that means 1. it is just taking lots of time to implement or 2. the plan was changed and I did not hear the announcement or 3. the plan was changed and there was no announcement.
If I hear anything definitive I will try to remember to come update this answer, but there is no guarantee that I'll find anything out, let alone remember LoL. Feel free to ask about it elsewhere. A good effort could be made by watching one of Joppa's streams and asking in chat.
I will add that the Limited Action Set had a great deal of heated discussions way back when it first was revealed. VR was pretty firmly attached to the idea and I have no reason to think they are considering changing it at this late date in development.
I can empathize with this greatly, and it is unfortunately one of the 2 reasons I may not play the SHM even though I love the class very much. (The other reason is the "slow" being for action speed and not affecting attack speed). I may play the Druid although I originally did not intend to, but I am "personally" unpleased with the buff system, and the SHM is a buffing class for sure.
Some people enjoy spending several mins every 40 mins casting the same 4 spells 28-36 times (pets too), but I am personally not one of those people.
A decent compromise "in my opinion" would be to consolidate the attribute buffs into a single evolving buff: Grip line (STR/STA), Mark of the Fireclaw (Dex/FR), and Wind Strider (endurance drain) should all be the same buff that just evolves at the appropriate levels and increases mana cost appropriately (i.e. at level 1, it adds STR/STA for 3 mana, at level 5, it adds STR/STA/DEX/FR for 7 mana, at level 10 it does STR/STA/DEX/FR/endurance for 13 mana... etc). You could even keep the buff names as they are now, but just add the previous buff's attribute modification and increase the mana cost - so "Mark of the Fireclaw" is just an upgrade from "Grip of Shale" and then Wind Strider is the upgrade of that - OR, a single cast of the newer spell puts all of the previous buffs on too.
Add: Regarding eventually being able to remove buffs from your LAS and the buff remains, I don't think that fully addresses the point I was making above. I feel like having the multiple buffs was an attempt to create a sense of decision making based on exclusivity with the LAS, but changing out your LAS should be "situational" and not include skills/spells that are a core part of the class. If you're going into an area where enemies have high resists or vulnerabilities (i.e. undead) you may want to change up your LAS... but you shouldn't have to remove a core (or several) abilities from your LAS... and especially every few minutes in a given game session. And you shouldn't have to rely on macros to repeatedly cast the same few spells over and over and over and over... and over, and over, and over, and over (that's 2 party members down) - and over, and over, and over, and over (half way done assuming there are no pets), and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over... because there is no skill required and only serves as an inconvenience for the sake of being inconvenient. Not fun.
Darch said:Some people enjoy spending several mins every 40 mins casting the same 4 spells 28-36 times (pets too), but I am personally not one of those people.
In case you weren't playing then, back before they temporarily took Mastery out of the game, it was common for buffs that started as single target buffs to get upgraded by Mastery to group buffs. Since VR didn't remove Mastery because it needed changing but simply to make balancing abilities easier, I fully expect this sort of functionality to still be a part of it when they put Mastery back in.
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Add: Regarding eventually being able to remove buffs from your LAS and the buff remains, I don't think that fully addresses the point I was making above. I feel like having the multiple buffs was an attempt to create a sense of decision making based on exclusivity with the LAS, but changing out your LAS should be "situational" and not include skills/spells that are a core part of the class. If you're going into an area where enemies have high resists or vulnerabilities (i.e. undead) you may want to change up your LAS... but you shouldn't have to remove a core (or several) abilities from your LAS... and especially every few minutes in a given game session. And you shouldn't have to rely on macros to repeatedly cast the same few spells over and over and over and over... and over, and over, and over, and over (that's 2 party members down) - and over, and over, and over, and over (half way done assuming there are no pets), and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over... because there is no skill required and only serves as an inconvenience for the sake of being inconvenient. Not fun.
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you are praying TO YOUR GOD to physically enhance your cohorts' abilities beyond their normal functioning, not just clicking some button.
Spell sets and the buffs sticking will alleviate a lot of the legitimate issues but no amount of pandering is going to satisfy complaints behind feedback like this and I hope they never give in. Because it's an "If you know, you know." situation and clearly
some do not.
Edit for Shaman and Druid rezz should be EPIC or at least HIGH level.
" "for Shaman and Druid rezz should be EPIC or at least HIGH level."
Why have rez at all?
Some seem to believe this is just a remake of EQ... If you know you know, and some do not."
I know, right. That crappy little project will never last without the Plane of Knowledge and it's stones because people need a quick way to get around in Norrath."
Right?!
Honestly, I'm somewhat confused by the entire skill system anyways.
Like we have actions, also we have utilities, and techniques! and stances. But I cannot see either rhyme nor reason why each one is what it is. Like I have 2 of my primary strikes I use on my paladin that are called techniques, but I also have a primary strike that is an action? what standards define these things? The only thing I can see is that we can only have 4 techniques on the hotbar. I can have 8 actions tho.
Is this sort of a forced choice scenario? I could see why certain skills they only want people to have 4, but I can't find any logic behind why certain skills are techniques instead of actions or vice versa. they are already locked behind cooldowns and/or mana useage, so...I don't get it. using my techniques doesn't stop me from using an action. I mean, just looking for the logic.
personally, I think they should all just be skills. and you can put them on any bar you want. And if they dedicate tags to each skill, then they can control or limit the skills via the tags instead of an arbitrary "hotbar only has 4 slots on it". I'm sorry team! I was going to heal you but I only have 4 buttons on my hotbar! Ohhhhkaaayyy.... it just seems like an "it was like this in EQ" kind of thing, no real actual logical reason behind it. or if it wasn't in EQ then I have no clue why it's even done this way.
The techniques are skills that usually either exploit or create a condition that that can then be exploited by a group member. It creates a synergy for your group. Utilities are usually buffs for you or your group while the skill bar skills are your direct spells for either healing or damage. The amount of each is going to be limited so you have to really strategize your load out for each occasion. Very similar to what EQ does to you except with more skills at a time. I have grown to really enjoy this system. It took a bit, but it just sort of clicks after a while, lol.
Appreciate the info Rhaz! OK, so each one has a basic theology behind it. It's also possible that since I'm still low level and early game, I can't see the ultimate benefits of some of the stuff I am currently using. Guess I'll just keep leveling!
The different abilities also use different resources - I really enjoy having different resource pools, but what I am not a fan of is having them locked into certain categories and unable to move them around my LAS. I "personally" found it frustrating, but also think that a relatively easy remedy for me would be to have different keybindings/UI set up per character, and have an option to "import settings from <'X' character>".
If I'm playing a support class, I may want my techniques mapped to my mouse buttons, but when I go to play a melee character (that doesn't need F-keys for part targeting) I may want to have my techniques be F1-F4. And when I play my ranger, I would like my ranged and melee keys together.
But back to the OP, the number of buffs required on a bar for some classes is a bit gross. Hope we get loadouts soon lol.
I would rather talent trees. Then for shaman for example, you would have healer, buffer, and affliction talent trees. You start with base abilities fromm each line. Then, the only way to get new abilities is to put points in that talent tree. So, putting all of your points into healer will make you a really good healer, your buffs and damage will suck. The talents in the healer tree will unlock more healing abilities than a shaman without points into the tree and you would also have passive talents that affect your abilities. This way, when you have a shaman, there are multiple posibilites. He could be a great healer and have all points in healer tree. Or great damage for affliction tree. Or great buffs for buff tree. You would still get a limited amount of abilities from all categories, but more abilites under each tree, with talents to boost them. Or you could multi-spec and put points into multiple trees.
When I played Dar Age of Camelot a long time ago, I played a cleric. But instead of putting points into Healing or smiting, to be a great healer or smiter, I put points into buffs. My buffs were the best around and I had more of them. Under that tree, one of the buffs were damage absorption shields. My heals were very basic. But I didn't have to heal as much because of my shields. I was damage prevention. They also used concentration for some abilities so you could only have certain buffs on limited people. I loved that system.
I think when a lot of us hear "talent tree", we think of characters that can do every role depending on which talent tree they go down.
I'm "personally" not a big fan of the talent tree system from WoW for instance. A lot of us like having a specific role for the classes.
Mastery points are talent specializations that (I believe) are designed to address a similar effect to of specializing in DAoC, where you can put points into your buffs to make them better.
With that said, I would be down for an AA system for sure! I wouldn't really compare the AA system (in EQ) to the talent tree (in WoW) exactly though. AA's were an "Alternate" way to "Advance" your character as opposed to a mandatory path to determine your class role, and they added things like decreasing food consumption, increasing mana regen, increasing crit chance etc; whereas talent trees changed your role.
Add: I'd also be cool with mastery points changing the effects of spells to perhaps change a DoT into a DD (or the opposite) with some drawback, like increased mana or cast time or something.