Forums » Crafting and Gathering

Will everyone have every profession?

    • 8 posts
    November 27, 2023 3:42 PM PST

    My largest complaint with newer MMO's is that there is no individuality among players. If everyone has multiple character slots thus more master cooks, skinner's, chemists etc. then people will not stand out. EQ1 originally had 1 slot you could master meaning if you were in a group with a cook you had an advantage with food buffs or a bowyer could make on the spot ammo. Please do not allow every player to max out every profession.

    • 80 posts
    November 27, 2023 4:48 PM PST
    I agree. Crafters should have to rely on each other just as much as adventurers.
    • 3852 posts
    November 28, 2023 7:49 AM PST
    Interesting question. There are, of course, two separate but related points here.

    1. How many professions one character can have. I care less about this than about the second question since I am a dyed in the wool altoholic and if one character can have every profession I will still spread my professions out among a handful or more of characters. Being quite careful to give some or all of the gathering professions to the character I intend to be the first high level so she can collect materials in any area.

    2. The question raised by the OP - should there be a limit by account regardless of the number of characters. Every MMO I know of that has tried to enforce crafting interdependency has abandoned the effort. In practice, whatever we say on the forums, most players like to be able to do everything and do not like being stymied in their crafting until they can find another player to help. Or can buy things at potentially excessive prices. Granted, other MMOs do not have the emphasis on grouping and cooperation that was the goal of Pantheon.

    One reason to limit professions by account is one that runs entirely counter to the rationale for the suggestion. It will not and cannot work. Now what do I mean by this somewhat enigmatic comment?

    This: it will strongly encourage people to maintain and pay for two or more accounts. Note that some pledge levels give a second account (but if the game follows a subscription model the second account still will requite payments to keep it active). Even if multi-boxing is somehow made entirely impossible - this is of no importance. The accounts need not be played simultaneously to double the number of crafting professions one player can have.
    • 80 posts
    November 28, 2023 12:27 PM PST
    You could make the same arguments for dungeon crawling. "I don't want my Fighter to rely on a Healer to progress" is the same as "I don't want my Woodworker to rely on a Blacksmith to make arrow heads." Multiboxing will always highly benefit everyone, adventurers most of all. That doesn't mean we do away with the trinity system. And the game should not be watered down for the sake of the 5% that decide to box. It also encourages a more vibrant and active economy, as far more of your crafts are desirable/sellable. I like the idea of a Blacksmith making a killing selling nothing but various sword pommels.

    Pantheon should highly encourage collaboration at every aspect of play, including crafting.
    • 1785 posts
    November 28, 2023 12:32 PM PST

    Butch said:

    My largest complaint with newer MMO's is that there is no individuality among players. If everyone has multiple character slots thus more master cooks, skinner's, chemists etc. then people will not stand out. EQ1 originally had 1 slot you could master meaning if you were in a group with a cook you had an advantage with food buffs or a bowyer could make on the spot ammo. Please do not allow every player to max out every profession.

    Fear not. Here's the current plan:

    Gathering:

    - Players will be able to pick up all five gathering professions (mining, woodcutting, harvesting, skinning, and fishing) at a basic level.

    - Players will be able to specialize in two of those professions. Specialization adds additional techniques like limited node tracking and makes you more effective.

    - Players will be able to master one of the two specialized gathering professions.

    The reason for setting gathering up this way is that we view gathering a little bit differently from most MMORPGs out there today. In our game, gathering is heavily risk/reward-based. Exotic resources generally come from dangerous areas - often very specific dangerous areas - where you will need some backup if you want to gather them in any kind of quantity. So your endgame activity as a gatherer may revolve around literally gathering your friends/guild and mounting expeditions to some far-flung and dangerous location in order to acquire that powerful ore or wood or the hide of some beast.

    Second, we view gathering as a social, group-oriented activity. Partly because of that risk-reward paradigm, and partly because we plan to have large-scale collaborative crafting projects where you may need lots and lots of resources (for example, building player-owned sailing ships). As a result, we want your group members to be able to pitch in and help when you're working on gathering things. The envisioned gameplay will be similar to the group gathering experience in Vanguard, where you can take some friends out with you and they can help you gather more than you could on your own.

    Specialization is the balance to this approach. So even though everyone may learn woodcutting at a basic level, you will probably want a specialist woodcutter with your group if you are going after those rare and special trees, as an example.

     

    Crafting

    Crafters will be able to select two professions, one from each group:

    Group A

    - Blacksmithing

    - Woodworking

    - Outfitting

    - Jewelcrafting

    Group B

    - Provisioning

    - Alchemy

     

    So you could choose to be an Outfitter and a Provisioner, a Blacksmith and an Alchemist, or any other combination of one profession from each of the two groups.

    You may have noticed that those professions are very, very broad. Within each of those professions, there's a specialization system that allows you to decide how you want to focus. So for example as an Outfitter, you may decide to specialize in Leatherworking - or you may go even further and specialize in Leather Tanning. This would make you very good at tanning leather (really important for using those high-end pelts) but you also would only have mediocre skills at best in working with cloth. Meanwhile, someone who chose to specialize in Tailoring might be able to easily produce really amazing cloth items, but would need to rely on you for fancy leather.

    The reason for the Group A/Group B split has to do with the different types of items each profession produces. Provisioning and Alchemy are primarily focused on consumables, and those simply behave differently with regard to supply/demand than durable goods like weapons or armor do. While there will be some consumables that are produced in town using specialized crafting stations, our consumable professions actually do a lot of their stuff "in the field" at campfires, so they can make supplies for their groups to use without having to go back to town all the time.

    Things may always change of course - we may actually add a third Group B profession at some point - but this is the plan for now!

    • 8 posts
    November 28, 2023 1:50 PM PST
    That is what I wanted to hear. Thank tou
    • 86 posts
    November 30, 2023 2:28 PM PST
    Nephele said:

    Butch said:



    My largest complaint with newer MMO's is that there is no individuality among players. If everyone has multiple character slots thus more master cooks, skinner's, chemists etc. then people will not stand out. EQ1 originally had 1 slot you could master meaning if you were in a group with a cook you had an advantage with food buffs or a bowyer could make on the spot ammo. Please do not allow every player to max out every profession.







    Fear not. Here's the current plan:



    Gathering:



    - Players will be able to pick up all five gathering professions (mining, woodcutting, harvesting, skinning, and fishing) at a basic level.



    - Players will be able to specialize in two of those professions. Specialization adds additional techniques like limited node tracking and makes you more effective.



    - Players will be able to master one of the two specialized gathering professions.



    The reason for setting gathering up this way is that we view gathering a little bit differently from most MMORPGs out there today. In our game, gathering is heavily risk/reward-based. Exotic resources generally come from dangerous areas - often very specific dangerous areas - where you will need some backup if you want to gather them in any kind of quantity. So your endgame activity as a gatherer may revolve around literally gathering your friends/guild and mounting expeditions to some far-flung and dangerous location in order to acquire that powerful ore or wood or the hide of some beast.



    Second, we view gathering as a social, group-oriented activity. Partly because of that risk-reward paradigm, and partly because we plan to have large-scale collaborative crafting projects where you may need lots and lots of resources (for example, building player-owned sailing ships). As a result, we want your group members to be able to pitch in and help when you're working on gathering things. The envisioned gameplay will be similar to the group gathering experience in Vanguard, where you can take some friends out with you and they can help you gather more than you could on your own.






    Owning my own ship to sail across the seas of Vanguard is honestly one of the best MMO memories I have, it was just an epic experience, to think we're getting that here makes me pretty giddy.
    This post was edited by Gaku at November 30, 2023 2:30 PM PST
    • 3852 posts
    December 2, 2023 7:51 AM PST
    Nephele - thank you and it sounds very good. The reference to Vanguard as an inspiration is far from surprising but is quite welcome.

    The one thing that concerns me the most is the need for high level, perhaps "endgame", adventuring groups to get the best materials. As you know quite well the Vanguard emphasis was on separating adventuring, crafting and diplomacy and letting sufficiently skilled or lucky crafters get high quality items though harvesting. Granted in areas that might not have been easy to get to, but with no need to kill dungeon or raid bosses as part of a high level *adventuring* group.

    I understand Pantheon is not Vanguard and has far more of an emphasis on group dynamics and cooperation. But I did want to note my feeling that while having high value resources in ...challenging .... locations makes sense I do not think we should require high end crafters to be part of endgame dungeon guilds (or to buy their materials at very high prices from those who are).
    • 264 posts
    December 2, 2023 6:59 PM PST
    I'm glad that crafting is coming along, and it sounds like you are using a winning formula I really loved Vanguard's crafting system!
    • 7 posts
    December 16, 2023 5:36 AM PST

    I loved VGs crafting system and a major part of that as a Jeweller at the time was my specialisation.  I cuold discover new recipes and at the time only I could make them as I knew how I discovered them.  This was huge.  The whole system was great.  The gathering and major build undertakings (Castle / Boats) were also superb so any nod to thiese is well received.

    Returning to these forums after about 3 years to use my pledge on the Pre-Alpha invites for Alphas pledgers, I like everything I read above.  Very refreshing news.

    Adding that level of depth is a strong feature plus for me.

    1 request/suggestion - I am not sure how easy this is to deliver on - VG had a great system where on my character sheet on the website, it stated how many of my items I made (larger more durable items from the Group A selection above) were in use by players in the game.  This was such an excellent feature and it drew me into crafting to hone my craft.  Very much a representation of my "fame" as a crafter.  Time wise.... I played VG from beta to launch +18 months where I left the game.

    • 116 posts
    December 16, 2023 5:49 PM PST

    Nephele said:

    Butch said:

    My largest complaint with newer MMO's is that there is no individuality among players. If everyone has multiple character slots thus more master cooks, skinner's, chemists etc. then people will not stand out. EQ1 originally had 1 slot you could master meaning if you were in a group with a cook you had an advantage with food buffs or a bowyer could make on the spot ammo. Please do not allow every player to max out every profession.

    Fear not. Here's the current plan:

    Gathering:

    - Players will be able to pick up all five gathering professions (mining, woodcutting, harvesting, skinning, and fishing) at a basic level.

    - Players will be able to specialize in two of those professions. Specialization adds additional techniques like limited node tracking and makes you more effective.

    - Players will be able to master one of the two specialized gathering professions.

    The reason for setting gathering up this way is that we view gathering a little bit differently from most MMORPGs out there today. In our game, gathering is heavily risk/reward-based. Exotic resources generally come from dangerous areas - often very specific dangerous areas - where you will need some backup if you want to gather them in any kind of quantity. So your endgame activity as a gatherer may revolve around literally gathering your friends/guild and mounting expeditions to some far-flung and dangerous location in order to acquire that powerful ore or wood or the hide of some beast.

    Second, we view gathering as a social, group-oriented activity. Partly because of that risk-reward paradigm, and partly because we plan to have large-scale collaborative crafting projects where you may need lots and lots of resources (for example, building player-owned sailing ships). As a result, we want your group members to be able to pitch in and help when you're working on gathering things. The envisioned gameplay will be similar to the group gathering experience in Vanguard, where you can take some friends out with you and they can help you gather more than you could on your own.

    Specialization is the balance to this approach. So even though everyone may learn woodcutting at a basic level, you will probably want a specialist woodcutter with your group if you are going after those rare and special trees, as an example.

     

    Crafting

    Crafters will be able to select two professions, one from each group:

    Group A

    - Blacksmithing

    - Woodworking

    - Outfitting

    - Jewelcrafting

    Group B

    - Provisioning

    - Alchemy

     

    So you could choose to be an Outfitter and a Provisioner, a Blacksmith and an Alchemist, or any other combination of one profession from each of the two groups.

    You may have noticed that those professions are very, very broad. Within each of those professions, there's a specialization system that allows you to decide how you want to focus. So for example as an Outfitter, you may decide to specialize in Leatherworking - or you may go even further and specialize in Leather Tanning. This would make you very good at tanning leather (really important for using those high-end pelts) but you also would only have mediocre skills at best in working with cloth. Meanwhile, someone who chose to specialize in Tailoring might be able to easily produce really amazing cloth items, but would need to rely on you for fancy leather.

    The reason for the Group A/Group B split has to do with the different types of items each profession produces. Provisioning and Alchemy are primarily focused on consumables, and those simply behave differently with regard to supply/demand than durable goods like weapons or armor do. While there will be some consumables that are produced in town using specialized crafting stations, our consumable professions actually do a lot of their stuff "in the field" at campfires, so they can make supplies for their groups to use without having to go back to town all the time.

    Things may always change of course - we may actually add a third Group B profession at some point - but this is the plan for now!

     

    Nephele,

    Can you please clarify the use of the word 'player'?  Your response while illuminating doesn't necessarily answer the OP's question.  I assume your use of the word 'player' rather than 'character' would suggest that this is an account wide decision you must make, but your response doesn't explicitly say that.  So the original question stands.  Can I just have a master crafter on each character multiplied by however many character slots I have?


    This post was edited by Mornroc at December 16, 2023 5:57 PM PST
    • 2159 posts
    December 17, 2023 9:01 PM PST

    Mornroc said:

    Nephele,

    Can you please clarify the use of the word 'player'?  Your response while illuminating doesn't necessarily answer the OP's question.  I assume your use of the word 'player' rather than 'character' would suggest that this is an account wide decision you must make, but your response doesn't explicitly say that.  So the original question stands.  Can I just have a master crafter on each character multiplied by however many character slots I have?

    Unless there has been a recent change that wasn't made clear to the PA testers, Nephele just wasn't being precise when using the term player rather than character. Everything we've learned in PA has indicated that each Character on an account can participate equally and independently in Crafting.

    • 4 posts
    December 17, 2023 10:06 PM PST

    Leveling crafting in Pantheon is quite a process already, for example there are already something like 24 profession skills. Blacksmithing already looks like it can branch into Plate, Chain, Weapons and Smelting which would require 4 characters to master just that single Group A skill. With Capentry, Fletching, Woodcarving, Tanning, Weaving, Clothworking, Leatherworking, Gemcutting, and Jewelcrafting already being additional mastery paths you are talking like 14 characters to master everything. 

    Skill levels are capped by character level so that means maxing all of those characters in level as well. I say if someone wants to do that and that is how they enjoy the game then let them, it will take a massive investment of time and resources and they would deserve that reward. 

    This is already shaping up to be one of the best crafting/gathering/economy systems and there will be players that want to concentrate their efforts on economy and they should be allowed to do so. Plus, limiting it by account will just mean they establish multiple accounts which brings its own pros/cons as does nothing to prevent your op's concerns. 

    • 1785 posts
    December 18, 2023 9:24 AM PST

    Profession choice will be a per-character restriction, not per-account. Sorry about the confusion there. Poor word choice on my part! :)

    • 116 posts
    December 18, 2023 12:10 PM PST

    All good, thank you for the clarification.  :)

     

    Based on Kintaro's response and Nephele's earlier post, it sounds like the skill tree has pretty deep specialization options, so it sounds like that would mitigate to some degree someone being a master of everything.

    • 30 posts
    December 19, 2023 4:44 AM PST

    Butch said:

    My largest complaint with newer MMO's is that there is no individuality among players. If everyone has multiple character slots thus more master cooks, skinner's, chemists etc. then people will not stand out. EQ1 originally had 1 slot you could master meaning if you were in a group with a cook you had an advantage with food buffs or a bowyer could make on the spot ammo. Please do not allow every player to max out every profession.

     

    What you also forget is that if you can do every profession you need huge amounts of bag space to having all professions is not realistic for 1 character

    • 116 posts
    December 24, 2023 11:36 AM PST

    ghrast said:

    Butch said:

    My largest complaint with newer MMO's is that there is no individuality among players. If everyone has multiple character slots thus more master cooks, skinner's, chemists etc. then people will not stand out. EQ1 originally had 1 slot you could master meaning if you were in a group with a cook you had an advantage with food buffs or a bowyer could make on the spot ammo. Please do not allow every player to max out every profession.

     

    What you also forget is that if you can do every profession you need huge amounts of bag space to having all professions is not realistic for 1 character

     

    A valid point I realized quickly during the testing.  While they gave you the ability and quests to do everything, it was rapidly not feasible due to bank and inventory storage limitations.

    • 77 posts
    May 2, 2024 7:21 AM PDT

    Nephele said:

     

    The reason for setting gathering up this way is that we view gathering a little bit differently from most MMORPGs out there today. In our game, gathering is heavily risk/reward-based. Exotic resources generally come from dangerous areas - often very specific dangerous areas - where you will need some backup if you want to gather them in any kind of quantity. So your endgame activity as a gatherer may revolve around literally gathering your friends/guild and mounting expeditions to some far-flung and dangerous location in order to acquire that powerful ore or wood or the hide of some beast.

    Second, we view gathering as a social, group-oriented activity. Partly because of that risk-reward paradigm, and partly because we plan to have large-scale collaborative crafting projects where you may need lots and lots of resources (for example, building player-owned sailing ships). As a result, we want your group members to be able to pitch in and help when you're working on gathering things. The envisioned gameplay will be similar to the group gathering experience in Vanguard, where you can take some friends out with you and they can help you gather more than you could on your own.

    Looking at this quoted part from Nephele's original posting, I am curious and worried.

    Sounds a lot like how Albion Online does gathering (much if not all of the best material to gather is in "black" zones which have major risk -PvP- so you need to have friends with you) and EQ2 in regards to the large crafting projects (anyone remember the group crafting that you could do ... that no one seems to do anymore?).

    Let's see how it turns out, especially if I decide to make an RP crafting/gathering guild in the future.

    • 5 posts
    June 29, 2024 9:16 AM PDT

    Are you going to do the crafting just like the gathering? Everyone should be able to try everything at least at a basic level. How are you going to know what you want to master unless you try everything to see what you like. I have been playing awhile and have a good idea of my path but there will be new people who need the same chance I had to figure all that out while in testing. Just a thought maybe I'm off base here

    • 2159 posts
    June 30, 2024 9:54 PM PDT

    The current plan for Release is that every character will be able to chose:

    1 crafting skill from among Blacksmith or Woodworker or Outfitter or Artificer

    and 1 crafting skill from Alchemy or Cooking/Brewing.

    Of course everything is still in development, it certainly could change.

     

    I believe there will be a way to give up a craft skill and choose another, but I don't remember any details and I could be wrong.