Benefits of large race size?

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Benefits of large race size?

Feastycentral
- 146 posts
November 22, 2023 10:38 AM PST

After hearing the last Q&A and the discussion of small races having some benefits like fitting into smaller spaces, it made me wonder what are the benefits, if any, that the large races will or should have?

I only played EQ1 for the first time within the last 3 years. I noticed ogres had terrible camera angles in smaller spaces, on top of just not fitting in certain places without spells. Both cons. I'm still going to play ogre in Pantheon, but what can I look forward to based on that decision aside from the visual?

Some things I can think of:

- Faster walk/run speed (nothing crazy, maybe +5%)

- Better climbing distance per stamina ratio

- Not setting off certain traps designed for normal sized feet

- 20-50% bonus from food for being able to eat/drink more

What do you think should/will be some of the inherent benefits of the large races that don't include abilities? (smaller races won't need an ability slot to fit into smaller holes)
Jothany
- 2053 posts
November 22, 2023 11:12 AM PST

I thought about making my tank an ogre because it would be much easier for those group members who prefer to use cursor to select targets to see and click on him when he's in the thick of battle with a crowd of mobs.

I also remember - from long ago - this discussion where someone else pointed out things like bridges with gaps between floorboards where an ogre could just walk across but a Halfling would have to choose a careful path to not fall thru. And similar situations in climbing.
chenzeme
- 902 posts
November 22, 2023 3:05 PM PST

Bigger animals are more thermally efficient than smaller. This could easily be incorporated into game play.
Ziegfried
- 264 posts
November 22, 2023 5:24 PM PST

In EQ large races (esp Troll/Ogre) started with vastly higher STR/CON alongside gaining the extra ability called Slam. Also I think ogres got frontal stun resist and trolls got regeneration? It may not have mattered at end game, but early on playing a large race character offered players a stronger melee character that could carry more, do more melee damage, and had more HP. The advantage was significant, so the penalty of only being able to wear large armor and not fitting in certain spaces was fair IMO. But EQ was more heavily based on D&D than most MMOs...balance was less of a consideration. I mean they had player collision which ogre players would abuse to block entrances..there was a solution on PvP servers but on PvE players had to call for GM assistance. Anyways I'm fine with the typical higher STR/CON for larger races. Special bonuses are fine but maybe nothing so insanely good as stun resist heh.
chenzeme
- 902 posts
November 23, 2023 3:28 AM PST

I have always wanted a mmorpg where races, sizes and creeds all mattered and were not just cosmetic. I would love to see Ogres who were bad a magic because they were not as dexterous as a wood elf but were great at melee and see Ogres having strength bonuses and HP bonuses. I would love to see Ogres getting hit more than a wood elf, because they were almost impossible to miss, but their tough thick hides absorbed a lot of the damage too. I would love to see a wood elf tank that didn't rely on direct melee damage, but more about movement, keeping the opposition off balance and and making them swing aimlessly as the wood elf dodges out of the way, I would love to see a wood elf not do as much in the way of damage, precision hits, hamstringing, or causing bleeds, wearing down a foe and causing the enemy to become frustrated and brilliant at keeping agro.

I would love to see the races themselves cause differences to gamers play styles, not just classes. I would love to see armour fall that is size related too, so Ogres could only expect armour from Ogre sized mobs or chests. Small, medium, large, very large.

But this wont happen because people expect ease of play and of course the complexity of incorporating it into an mmo in the first place.
Brutenga
- 102 posts
November 23, 2023 5:59 AM PST

A very good idea. I feel like this is pretty achievable, depending on how the ability and modifiers are set up. Where STR of an ogre could contribute to damage mitigation whereas the DEX of an elf would contribute to dodge/hit chance. There's a whole lot of math involved, beyond my comprehension, but I believe the stat itself would play into it. Do we have Stats that scale to 255, or is there a soft cap of 25 at play?

I feel like to implement the mechanics stated, the stat number would have to be able to scale higher than a soft cap to allow flexibility in order to feel the difference between a wood elf tank and an ogre tank.

Either way, greater minds than mine to decide. All I know is that a broader dynamic of STR=Carry weight/melee dmg, DEX=Dodge chance/Dex dmg, INT=Caster damage/mana pool, etc, etc. That in and of itself can make the game stand out compared to other MMOs as opposed to making a ton of other systems or "gimmicks".

Anyway, just kinda talking out of my rear.
StoneFish
- 727 posts
November 23, 2023 6:21 AM PST

Larger races should carry more and act as pack animals for the smaller races.
Larger races can be equipped with saddles so others may ride on them.
Larger races should be more clumsy and trip and fall when fleeing MOBs or trains.
Larger races should occasionally pass wind in such volume as to cause any close proximity flames to burn brighter for a short duration.
Larger races should often bonk their heads on doorways for comic relief.
Larger races should cause clanging and crashing sounds when moving in metal armor.
Just my 2 cents.
chenzeme
- 902 posts
November 23, 2023 2:50 PM PST

And a fine couple of pennies they are! Lol!
Gaku
- 86 posts
November 23, 2023 4:01 PM PST

StoneFish said:
Larger races should carry more and act as pack animals for the smaller races.
Larger races can be equipped with saddles so others may ride on them.
Larger races should be more clumsy and trip and fall when fleeing MOBs or trains.
Larger races should occasionally pass wind in such volume as to cause any close proximity flames to burn brighter for a short duration.
Larger races should often bonk their heads on doorways for comic relief.
Larger races should cause clanging and crashing sounds when moving in metal armor.
Just my 2 cents.

Spoken like someone who plays races born with a certain height defect.
Feastycentral
- 146 posts
November 24, 2023 9:43 AM PST

@Jothany - I love that bridge idea. Being small gets it benefits, but not all holes are ones you want to fall through lol.

@chenzeme - Those ideas are complex for an MMO, but the thermal one would work great with the climate system.

@Ziegfried & Brutenga - As mentioned, those are mostly noticed early game and don't affect how you interact with the environment no matter your level. I feel like giving stats in this case is a low effort cop out. Especially when STR might not be as valuable to half the classes available to you (druid and shaman for ogre).

@StoneFish - I can't debate any of those genius ideas. I would gladly run into battle with a dwarf and a gnome on each shoulder.

@Gaku - We can't all be great.
Euther
- 51 posts
November 24, 2023 1:46 PM PST

unlike Final fantasy 11, no game has ever had "sound" creation when moving as a mob detection mechanic, only sight.

larger races (unless a rogue ?) should make more noise, but pantheon has never said they would do crush/slash/ pierce dmg and mitigation like Dark age of camelot or sound / smell like final fantasy 11 for detection/ aggro radius.
Jobeson
- 810 posts
November 24, 2023 4:33 PM PST

I love race dynamics playing a huge RP role but the problem here is always balancing. You end up with a clear meta choice for combat, so use dispositions for fun complications that can't be relied on or meta gamed.

Dispositions could mess with player choices. Agro generation tied to perceived threat. A wolf pack sees the smaller targets as weak prey to kill and drag off to eat. The troll goes straight for the biggest "alpha" leader in the party even if it is the shaman.

Dispositions are the key reason I still have hope for pantheon. So many opportunities.
chenzeme
- 902 posts
November 25, 2023 3:09 AM PST

Of course balancing is a challenge, but dismissal of size/race specific bonuses and detriments before even considering them, results in every games being essentially the same, I.e. very little real choice above cosmetics.

Any advantage should also come with a disadvantage. So if large and strong, lumbering (dexterity poor) Ogre would be great at melee damage but would be easier to hit require more solo target healing. It's dexterity limitations would mean Ogres would be less able to crowd control efficiently. It should really be a play style choice over best race for role. If every race were good and bad at specific mechanics and had differing max stats, it would really open up what it means to play a race above cosmetics.

There will always be those looking for best role/race/stats, and no matter how much complexity, this will always be the case. However the more choices there are, the harder it is to pin down. Especially when you consider other player's race/role choices in any group. It then starts to become best choices for groups over best for role. Which I feel is a good direction to go in.

I believe this would take thorough thought, but could be a great selling point for a mmo. No, I am not suggesting Pantheon should go down this route at this stage, but it is certainly doable and I would love to test the possibilities this opens up.
This post was edited by chenzeme at November 25, 2023 3:11 AM PST
Jobeson
- 810 posts
November 25, 2023 6:07 AM PST

I doubt weapon types will have the depth they deserve either. Complexity is fun but locked in choices need to have a degree of balance. Unlike with weapons that can be swapped easily for combat complexity zone to zone or camp to camp without being too punishing.

Again, this is why I think dispositions can come into play for things like race/size choices. Certain mobs being stronger against certain races lets us have fun with the idea the fat ogre is a larger, slower, and easier to hit target when fighting wisps but packing a bigger punch on physical blows against some heavier targets without mechanically needing to balance that out for every or even most mobs. This way even if there is a slight imbalance between the races for the overall world per expansion it wouldn't exist on the raid tier fights unless the devs wanted to rock the boat. Dispositions are the win-win option here.
chenzeme
- 902 posts
November 25, 2023 7:51 AM PST

As you point out Jobeson, even with race/size traits and anti-traits (if you like), you need to ensure one race doesn't inadvertently end up with an overall advantage. If they do, it will be found out and everyone will be expected to follow that race.

I personally think that anything that makes choosing a race, meaningful has a place. Stats advantages and disadvantages, traits and anti-traits, abilities and weaknesses. The more the merrier.
Feastycentral
- 146 posts
November 25, 2023 12:08 PM PST

chenzeme said:
As you point out Jobeson, even with race/size traits and anti-traits (if you like), you need to ensure one race doesn't inadvertently end up with an overall advantage. If they do, it will be found out and everyone will be expected to follow that race.

I personally think that anything that makes choosing a race, meaningful has a place. Stats advantages and disadvantages, traits and anti-traits, abilities and weaknesses. The more the merrier.

I do think theoretically it's cool to have something like gnomes do 10% more magic damage but also take 10% more damage from magic due to their bodies, whereas ogres are the opposite and do less magic damage but take less magic damage.

However, with anything race-specific, I'd like to stay away from stats/traits that make a race the best or most ideal for specific classes. Some people may like this, but I've never enjoyed feeling like I'm potentially performing worse at my role because a race I don't like is more suited for that class. This is common enough where it's not a deal breaker for me. I just personally dislike it. That's why most of my first ideas were class agnostic benefits.

@Euther - I didn't think of sound, but in the taming discussion with Minus and Joppa a few months back, Joppa did allude (can't remember if he flat out stated it) to detection through other means aside from sight.

@Jobeson - Dispositions would be an awesome way to interact with races. Goblin with "ogre friend" disposition making that goblin only attack if engaged first or even one that has an eleven grudge and therefore has a huge aggro radius for that race.
StoneFish
- 727 posts
November 26, 2023 9:42 AM PST

I would like to ask that we all support the lowering of shelving and cabinets. I do not want to ask others to help me get the sugar I need for my recipe from the top shelf.
Or
You could provide the shorter races with a magic cattle prod to punish the tall races for putting the sugar on the top shelf in the first place .
I prefer options 2
Jothany
- 2053 posts
November 26, 2023 11:53 AM PST

StoneFish said: Or You could provide the shorter races with a magic cattle prod to punish the tall races for putting the sugar on the top shelf in the first place . I prefer options 2

Purely out of a deep appreciation for our friendship, I urge you in the strongest possible terms to not approach my Skar Dire Lord with a cattle prod in your hands.

I can NOT be responsible for the results.