Prevenge said:
The shortness of that video does not make any logical sense for any reason other than they wanted to do this on purpose to gauge initial reactions to a small amount of content, so they could see what direction to take it before they got too deep in. *all speculation*
I sincerely hope that is not the case.
One of the main reasons I pledged to Pantheon (other than the vision outlined in the tenets) was the honesty and authenticity I perceived from the various conversations Kilsin had with the various VR employees throughout the years, particularly with Chris Perkins (I suspect this is also true for many other pledgers).
Even when at times things weren't going smoothly (e.g major code refactor years ago) Kilsin or Chris or Ben would step up and reinforce the vision, and thoroughly, patiently, courageously and with a clear understanding of the situation, explain to the community, via video or written content, precisely how and why they are doing what they are doing is the best course of action at that moment.
In an industry where media-spin, falsehoods, and utter lack of respect for the gamer through attempts at “3d chess mind games” is becoming more and more common practice, the VR approach to external communication was, in my mind, a sign that this was a different animal here. This was years ago.
I have not felt that confidence in 6 months. Or more.
I'm willing to believe that Ben, Minus and Savanja are doing their best, but they need to understand that the "We can't wait to show you this and that" catch phrases are beginning to sound very hollow. It reminds me too much of the rest of the industry. Not a good sign.
Be more honest about the situation. Be more authentic when addressing the community and gamers in general. You are part of an effort to bring back true fun, true challenge and respect for the people that want to engage in that experience.
That - above all, respect us. Respect our trust in you.
Nexira said:trying to plead/bargain/talk to everyonee while they are screaming at the top of their lungs is a futile move. Any parent with a child in the middle of a temper tantrum knows what I am talking about hehe.
I think you're misconstruing the relationship a little bit. 1. Two-year-olds don't pay their parent's bills. 2. The genuine reaction of the community for the most part hasn't been a "temper tantrum". Even most of the negative reactions don't amount to that, though there may be exceptions. I hope that VR doesn't piss off their community and then let them stew in it for their own good, which is what a parent ignoring a temper tantrum is doing. My guess is that they aren't saying anything because they don't have anything to say yet.
I liked it better when they were using place-holder graphics and focusing on the game functionality. The artstyle can be added during Alpha - please focus on the actual game VR! :(
We have a long, long way to go to be concerned about the art style. When trying to engineer a vehicle with some kind of revolutionary design, the color of the paint should be the least of your concerns. Prove functionality first.
The perception and progeny systems combined with enough quests (without the obnoxious over-the-head icons, or handholding) is a gargantuan task on its own... and they haven't even figured out all of the class abilities yet (which means they can't even begin to work on all of the combat mechanics... which is going to be monumental to the game and require an intense amount of adjusting/balancing... AFTER the abilities have been determined.
I'm not worried about the graphics/art style nearly as much as I am mechanics (combat and NPC interactions (perception/quests etc). They could also get much more community interaction by simply posting polls on what they would like to see for class abilities (without focusing on videos that may or may not portray what the game will even look like). Make the results blind even - so if the devs want to change their mind they can without reprisal... like changing the artstyle (seemingly on a whim) has done.
Ruinar said:Nexira said:trying to plead/bargain/talk to everyonee while they are screaming at the top of their lungs is a futile move. Any parent with a child in the middle of a temper tantrum knows what I am talking about hehe.
I think you're misconstruing the relationship a little bit. 1. Two-year-olds don't pay their parent's bills. 2. The genuine reaction of the community for the most part hasn't been a "temper tantrum". Even most of the negative reactions don't amount to that, though there may be exceptions. I hope that VR doesn't piss off their community and then let them stew in it for their own good, which is what a parent ignoring a temper tantrum is doing. My guess is that they aren't saying anything because they don't have anything to say yet.
You are misconstruing what I meant. A screaming toddler won't listen to anything you say even if it is what they want to hear. Nobody is teaching anyone a lesson and letting them stew in it. They are probably waiting until everyone calms down a bit from the initial reaction.
I mean what are they going to say? They probably are not goin back, so the people saying "this is it! I'm not playing!" aren't going to change their minds in this highly emotional moment. The others who are in shock need a hot minute to come out of it, and the rest who are quietly watching will welcome their statement when it comes out.
I'm guessing it will grow on the ones who are freaking out the most or at least they will think about wanting the gameplay over the graphics. Everyone else will be ready to listen when they decide to talk about it.
I'd also be really surprised if they don't say anything in the next week or 2. They are probably thinking really hard about what to say and how to say it. There is nothing worse than a rushed apology/statement and then another statement correcting the first one causing even more confusion and emotions.
Edit: I also don't think most of the people here have paid their bills in a long time. The initial crowdfunding has dried up long ago. That being said, the people who are actual investors (not donators) of the project probably heard about it before they made the initial switch in may. They also probably had actual input on the matter as well since they have a vested interest. Everyone else, including me, is just along for the ride at this point.
Trying to talk to your community after upsetting them is only futile if A) if they are being completely irrational (like a two year old) or B) you don't have anything to say. While much of the community was upset or disappointed by the new art style, many were upset by the way Visionary Realms handled it. I disagree completely with your premise that people who don't like this art style or don't like how VR handled it are being irrational. My personal belief is that VR isn't saying anything because they aren't sure what to say about it.
In response to your edit, Ben Dean has stated many times that this is primarily a crowdfunded game. As pointed out in another thread, he has made statements such as "with current crowdfunding levels Pantheon is funded through release". They are absolutely depending on new and upgraded pledges to bring this game to release, unless things have changed in the last year or so.
Nexira said:Ruinar said:Nexira said:trying to plead/bargain/talk to everyonee while they are screaming at the top of their lungs is a futile move. Any parent with a child in the middle of a temper tantrum knows what I am talking about hehe.
I think you're misconstruing the relationship a little bit. 1. Two-year-olds don't pay their parent's bills. 2. The genuine reaction of the community for the most part hasn't been a "temper tantrum". Even most of the negative reactions don't amount to that, though there may be exceptions. I hope that VR doesn't piss off their community and then let them stew in it for their own good, which is what a parent ignoring a temper tantrum is doing. My guess is that they aren't saying anything because they don't have anything to say yet.
You are misconstruing what I meant. A screaming toddler won't listen to anything you say even if it is what they want to hear. Nobody is teaching anyone a lesson and letting them stew in it. They are probably waiting until everyone calms down a bit from the initial reaction.
I mean what are they going to say? They probably are not goin back, so the people saying "this is it! I'm not playing!" aren't going to change their minds in this highly emotional moment. The others who are in shock need a hot minute to come out of it, and the rest who are quietly watching will welcome their statement when it comes out.
I'm guessing it will grow on the ones who are freaking out the most or at least they will think about wanting the gameplay over the graphics. Everyone else will be ready to listen when they decide to talk about it.
I'd also be really surprised if they don't say anything in the next week or 2. They are probably thinking really hard about what to say and how to say it. There is nothing worse than a rushed apology/statement and then another statement correcting the first one causing even more confusion and emotions.
Edit: I also don't think most of the people here have paid their bills in a long time. The initial crowdfunding has dried up long ago. That being said, the people who are actual investors (not donators) of the project probably heard about it before they made the initial switch in may. They also probably had actual input on the matter as well since they have a vested interest. Everyone else, including me, is just along for the ride at this point.
OK so now you are trying to invalidate people's pledges by claiming they haven't forked over enough dough or what? Just along for the ride eh? Great. This is a big part of why I am not fond of crowdfunding and only made an exception for this particular game. I sincerely hope they remember who they are making this game for. And I want them to address this...debacle.
chenzeme said:Insert any word you feel is appropriate. Mine is "work" just so that this doesnt get deleted.
I for one am tired of the total lack of anything at all from VR. I am tired of complaining into the ether. I guess I will give up now and keep half an eye on my inbox for something to come through. But if VR cannot interact with its customers, what's the point in promoting this game to anyone else? For now. I'm done!
I'm sorry Chenzeme. I wish I could agree with you. But any complaints are only being detrimental to the VR team. I'm pretty sure they have a vision of making it better for the majority of us. I know this sounds too blunt but wanting to make a statement isn't helping any. The best judgment we can make out of what they're trying to push for all of us to enjoy is what is being offered to us as a majority. Is it right for all? Who knows.
But if a company wants to push something to display to us, that's what we'll get. But just so you know and if you're wondering where the VR team is headed is only with the best purpose for all of us to enjoy... Is it the exact expectancy that we alll have? Maybe not. But I'm pretty sure they're trying their best to come up with something fast as I'm sure the Devs feel your pain <3
BigBadAzz1 said:Is it right for all? Who knows?
I know! The answer is "No". No matter what decision VR makes, there will always be someone who it isn't right for. All we can hope for is a finished product regardless of the art direction. Some of us are unhappy with the decision, but the art style isn't what this game is supposed to be focused on (and it isn't the primary focus of this thread). Game -clap- developement -clap-! Continue "developing" instead of regressing decisions. This is technically the 3rd character art style we've seen but we still have very little game mechanic development reveals.
As the O.P. stated: "Get your **** into gear!" Please... :)
Ziegfried said:
OK so now you are trying to invalidate people's pledges by claiming they haven't forked over enough dough or what? Just along for the ride eh? Great. This is a big part of why I am not fond of crowdfunding and only made an exception for this particular game. I sincerely hope they remember who they are making this game for. And I want them to address this...debacle.
I am just a realist. Crowdfunding is just a bunch of people who believed in what they were doing. We donated to a vision and idea of a game that has the tennets they have set forth to create. They may ask us for opinions, but in the end they are going to do what they need to do to release the game. Their goal is to make money at the end of the day and investors want some sort of return for their investment. I dunno what their deals are, but investors are much different than you and me. Technically we are not even guaranteed a game, although I truly believe they will give us one that is mostly what they set out to do.
The investors probably get at least some sort of a seat at the table even if it is just knowing all the nitty gritty stuff behind the scenes we will never see. They know what issues are really happening with performance and they may have even had something to say about the art change(good or bad, who knows, we will always be in the dark compared to them).
We are the customers in the end so they don't want to go too far from the original vision, but the nuts and bolts of it all was never up to us. We are here for the journey with all of its ups and downs, and hopefully we will get to play the game we all pledged to in the end. *fingers crossed*
That being said, hopefully the new art change will boost production speed so we can get to playing sooner rather than later...I don't think their ***** were ever not in gear. Passion projects don't pay the bills and put food on the table. They probably want it released even more than we do and I don't think they would go backwards if they didn't have a good reason.
Adrenicus said:I don't want this to come across the wrong way but why do they employ so many people as public facing and PR and then provide no content when it is desperately needed. Would that money not be much better spent on more actual dev time and speeding this process up?
That's been exactly my question again and again for a while now. There are a lot of communications positions filled and a whole lot of radio silence, besides casual jovial banter on discord.
Edit new screenshots on the website that soulweaver posted on discord today. Environment looks pretty fantastic. I'm going to go and edit /delete a big portion of my post above regarding progress because I can't deny tangible progress shown there in these screenshots. Damn I wished they didn't rush this art reveal last month, they really should have realised what they had was an awful representation of what they were going for. These latest screenshots look fantastic
Kaynrath said:From a software development point of view, all that has been done (and publicly known) so far has made sense to me. First the major refactor a few years ago, to make the game-build more scalable, and now the change in art style and assets to make development faster and the game-build more performant. I agree with the changes, even though the new art isn't super appealing to me.
However, the major problem here, in my view, is the lack of frequent and impactful communication.
The lack of content in July and August I can understand, given that people go on vacation, need to take care of the kids etc, as well as VR being small indie team. But September was also poor, and October is following suit, in a crucial moment when you probably should be pumping out more videos and more producer articles so that gamers and investors interested in Pantheon can be rest assured that things are going well, despite another refactor in the project.
That 5min video was fine, but very insufficient in a time like this
It really does not make sense though.
They realized 5 years into the project that static was bad and they needed to get dynamic into play.
They spend some 8 years before they realized that they needed to get their pipeline in order and one has got to ask the question.. Is it actually in order? 'cos it sure as heck does not look like it is in order.
They spend 12 years before they realized their netcode was not up to snuff.
Meanwhile they have been making promises at each turn: This will give us 6 weeks for a class. It did not. This will speed up production! It did not. Project Faerthale will lay the foundation and you'll all test it soon. We did not.
This is the last PA! It was not.
I get some people are still hyped, but really.. They still don't have the basics of the game in place and they're focusing on everything BUT getting the basics of the game functional. That is THE thing to do before an Alpha - and then you introduce features that builds on said basic functionality.
Teleokenisis said:
Really wondering when this beautiful game will be Beta, i have a pledge for 150$ that i did about 4-5 years ago. Would love to do some of the testing!