Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

New Art Ideas/Suggestions

    • 165 posts
    September 22, 2023 1:33 PM PDT

    There's lots of negative posts already, which I'm sure they've read and discussed at length by now.

    I was thinking for this thread how about you post some CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM of the individual aspects you don't like, or do like, so we can give VR some relevant information going forward. 

    Your opinion does not have to match mine in the slightest, but here are my ideas.-- Please try to keep your comments to suggestions, rather than complaints and threats.  There's a bunch of threads already full of those.  

    1. Maturity level needs to go up.  The player character models do look oddly similar in style to Fortnite.  

    2. The game needs "grit" it's a little happy go lucky, at least it looks like it from the short 5 minute video clip that you shared with us.  I want to see some darker styling, darker colors, to me they tend to feel more immersive and adult.  Too happy go lucky and colorful really does make it look like a game for younger kids. 

    3. The grass and trees look a little TOO hand painted.  I think these 2 aspects are a large part of what's causing the "too cartooney" look. 

    4. Remember that your core audience is 30+ years old, don't bother aiming Pantheon at too young of a generation because they do not have the attention spans to play an MMORPG.  Believe me.  

    5. I love the look of the rocks and mountains, I never did quite like them before the change and now they are my favorite part of the new art style.  All of the stonework, really, looks amazing.  That shot with the coffin with the glowing green eyes, really is what made me think this art style has some serious potential.   

    6.  Don't lose the sense of scale.  What I mean is in games that adopt this art style, sometimes they tend to be a little bland so you zoom out as far as possible and don't bother looking at the world as if it's a world anymore.  Now it's more like an overhead map you run around on, much like WoW. Hand painted or not, it's still an MMORPG and this is one of the most important aspects of an MMORPG.   

    7. Most importantly, please show more as soon as possible.  You didn't show enough to give people a good idea of what it really looks like.  Show us some combat, mine a node, a short group fighting in a dungeon clip, some climbing, just show a little bit of everything so we have a proper idea of what it looks like.  I thought I'd be able to come up with a list of things but the video is so short, this is all I've got.

     

    • 3852 posts
    September 22, 2023 2:57 PM PDT

    I have no constructive criticism. Rightly or wrongly I think they are finally on a push to speed things up - significantly - and accept weakening any aspects of the game that *need* to be weakened in order to keep the dream alive. Rather than criticize - constructively or otherwise - I choose to encourage that approach in all respects. Getting even half of what we hope for is better than getting none of it which had come to seem very far indeed from impossible. It is still far from impossible but if someone at VR has laid down the law - move faster and get the game out by ((internal and highly confidential objective)) regardless of what it takes - that just may happen.

    • 27 posts
    September 22, 2023 3:07 PM PDT

    Prevenge said:

    1. Maturity level needs to go up.  The player character models do look oddly similar in style to Fortnite.  

    2. The game needs "grit" it's a little happy go lucky, at least it looks like it from the short 5 minute video clip that you shared with us.  I want to see some darker styling, darker colors, to me they tend to feel more immersive and adult.  Too happy go lucky and colorful really does make it look like a game for younger kids.  

    7. Most importantly, please show more as soon as possible.  You didn't show enough to give people a good idea of what it really looks like.  Show us some combat, mine a node, a short group fighting in a dungeon clip, some climbing, just show a little bit of everything so we have a proper idea of what it looks like.  I thought I'd be able to come up with a list of things but the video is so short, this is all I've got.

     

    I agree on these, but other then this i think i like the new style.

    • VR Staff
    • 487 posts
    September 22, 2023 3:09 PM PDT

    I like this feedback, thank you.

    • 252 posts
    September 22, 2023 5:02 PM PDT

    I put this in one of the negative threads (to be fair I have been negative about this) but I like the premise of this thread so I'll put my constructive critisism here.

    1. For the armor, please don't make ridiculous proportions with wierd saturated colors. Fill in the armpit gaps, protect your neck for goodness sake. Pull up the Wallace Collection's "Arms and Armour" section and get inspried by what real knights wore. PLEASE! Watch some Tod's Workshop, some Scholagladitoria with Matt Easton, or some Dr Toby Capwell.

    2. Please don't personify the animals. Don't give them human facial features and proportions. This makes them look more cartoony than they would otherwise. Animators give animals human facial features so that children can recognize human emotions on the animals when they watch cartoons. This is because in cartoons animals are basically humans. Please don't do this.


    This post was edited by Ruinar at September 22, 2023 5:11 PM PDT
    • 63 posts
    September 22, 2023 5:29 PM PDT

    Savanja said:

    I like this feedback, thank you.



    Sav, if you're still reading this thread, my most critical feedback is that the male humans need nipples and chest hair.

    I mean I say this half in jest, but seriously, the older facial features and facial hair on the male human in the video would indicate to me he's old enough to have chest hair. And everyone has nipples. Probably a really easy change to make, and it would help add a little realism to the model.

    So yeah, chest hair and nipples. Discuss.

    • 105 posts
    September 23, 2023 6:15 AM PDT

    I agree with Ruinar about the animals.  I feel like the wolves are going to start dancing around on their hind legs with lavacious smiles and tongue lolling while breaking out into a song detailing how gruesome our deaths are going to be.  

    Why are the human models featureless Barbie Dolls with Polly Pocket type clothing? The shine and plastic-ness of it all doesn't appeal to me.  If we're going to play in a stylized world with a high fantasy feel then go for it.  The monochrome hair is terrible.  It's hard to give more specific feedback when we don't know the extent of customization that we'll be allowed.  

    Everyone upthread already said a lot of what I think so get on with the grit, nipples and chest hair.

     

     

     

     

     

     

    • 24 posts
    September 23, 2023 9:09 AM PDT

    Marilee said:

    Everyone upthread already said a lot of what I think so get on with the grit, nipples and chest hair.

    Hear hear! 

    While I have replied in another thread, as well, I appreciate what has been outlined above by others am simply showing support for such. /like

    • 902 posts
    September 23, 2023 9:19 AM PDT

    A major question for me is, how far does this simplification go? Do armour sets now have less variety? I hate picking up a new helm with great stats only to find it looks exactly the same as the one I am wearing. I want my char to be as individual as possible. Does this move mean that is out of scope too? Will there be 1000s of clones in this zone less world? These changes do nothing for my immersion. 

    /dislike


    This post was edited by chenzeme at September 23, 2023 9:20 AM PDT
    • 252 posts
    September 23, 2023 9:25 AM PDT

    I'd love to see a preview of what this would look like with mismatched armor you picked up from different places in the world since it seems unlikely that your best gear is always going to be a set. It would give us an idea of what itemization will look like in this new style.

    • 326 posts
    September 23, 2023 9:33 AM PDT

     4. Remember that your core audience is 30+ years old - Prevenge

    this might be a touch low...

    Dreamers are making this game, so some of the nuts and bolts missteps were almost inevitable. 

    The team must have known the vehement pushback that would follow the art direction changes. These alterations need a payoff in production velocity.

    7. Most importantly, please show more as soon as possible.

    A more savvy approach to introducing a jarring art change would have been to show off that art with characters involved in acts of Perception, dealing with mob Dispositions, and handling Fractures vs Climates. Toss in a rogue using a rope, a druid (MIA) making a vine bridge, a wizard porting a party, a ranger (MIA) falling to their death in Sorhiryth, et al. 

    Oooo look, shiny - is always a valid tactic. 

    Breathe, focus, and push like hell! Hang in there everyone.

     

     

     


    This post was edited by Thunderleg at September 24, 2023 1:59 PM PDT
    • 44 posts
    September 24, 2023 11:03 AM PDT

    I would totally ignore all these people and their "grit" graphics suggestions.  In the end it wont matter at all and will likely turn alot of people away.

    Focus purely on good game design mechanics, cool spells, cool abilities, cool animations, cool loot, cool combat, cool progression, cool raid bosses, cool game mechanics etc...  This game succeeds or fails off of a good game design.  All this graphics noise just needs to be disregarded.  Make a fun game to play, and it will be popular.  Above all get this game to a release state, otherwise it wont matter.

    • 165 posts
    September 24, 2023 8:30 PM PDT

    Razorbrains said:

    I would totally ignore all these people and their "grit" graphics suggestions.  In the end it wont matter at all and will likely turn alot of people away.

    Focus purely on good game design mechanics, cool spells, cool abilities, cool animations, cool loot, cool combat, cool progression, cool raid bosses, cool game mechanics etc...  This game succeeds or fails off of a good game design.  All this graphics noise just needs to be disregarded.  Make a fun game to play, and it will be popular.  Above all get this game to a release state, otherwise it wont matter.

     

    Literally everyone from the youtube comments and the forums is saying that it needs to grow up and be less childish and flowery.  You are the only person I've seen disagree.  Currently it looks a lot like fortnite and I'm not sure why you would want that, but the rest of us are adults and we certainly don't want a game that looks like what our kids are playing, lol. Graphics might not matter to you personally, but to the VAST majority of us, they are still a determining factor in the games we play.  You have to like the look of the world you're going to spend hundreds or thousands of hours in.  You have to like the look of the gear you're going to be spending your next 5/10/20 levels in.  Especially for an MMORPG which is supposed to be an immersive journey, the graphics definitely have to make it feel so. 

    Everything else is important too, no one is saying ignore the games mechanics and make the graphics good.  Not sure why you think the 2 are mutually exclusive.  

    • 1266 posts
    September 24, 2023 8:48 PM PDT

    If it helps at all, I counted many people who claimed to like the new style.  During the stream, in discord, and here on the forums.  I have not counted exact numbers (and don't plan to), but he's certainly not alone.  

     

    Also want to take a second to remind that the idea of this thread was for constructive critisim of the new art.  Try to add suggestions in a constructive way :)


    This post was edited by Ranarius at September 24, 2023 8:48 PM PDT
    • 902 posts
    September 25, 2023 1:53 AM PDT

    ...All this graphics noise just needs to be disregarded...

    ...And we are all still playing EQ on mass. Graphics are the gateway into the game. I moved from EQ wanting a more realistic world, not because I thought EQ was a bad engine. Of course the graphics matter! It is the linchpin of immersion of the game. We would still be playing MUD if graphics were just noise! 

    cool spells, cool abilities, cool animations, cool loot, cool combat,

    All graphics based stuff!


    This post was edited by chenzeme at September 25, 2023 2:08 AM PDT
    • 902 posts
    September 25, 2023 2:10 AM PDT

    Here is some constructive critisim: 

    Roll these child-like graphics back and give us something more gritty and believable. It does not have to be photo realistic, nor does it need to be childish.

    • 78 posts
    September 25, 2023 4:49 AM PDT

     

    Going to post this from YouTube from griffgames9538, because it seems to expain the TECHNICAL aspects of what might be going on with the looks.

     

    "Correct LIGHTING is what's missing here. You can see it's not fully implemented. Most of the character and environment shading is 'flat'. Lighting and well-chosen shaders make a huge difference, even with stylized, so-called hand painted art style (or as so many comments say, "cartoony".). For example, just imagine if Team Fortress 2 had launched with its art style, but without its phong shading look.Totally different appearance.So we'll need to see this new art direction for Pantheon when it has more dynamic lighting and shading implemented, so there's more nuance.We can also see some textures are missing normal maps/bump maps to add quasi-dimension to them.This adds to the perception of a 'flat' look.It's absolutely possible to do stylized 'cartoony' visuals with excellent lighting and shading that dials up the sophistication and increases immersion.VR needs to hit that sweet spot."

    • 3852 posts
    September 25, 2023 6:40 AM PDT

    Xerion - In other words, we have jumped back to another do-over but in many months we may expect the new style to be as developed as the old style had been when it was abandonned?

    • 902 posts
    September 25, 2023 6:44 AM PDT

    Xerion: ...with excellent lighting and shading that dials up the sophistication and increases immersion...

    These take processing power to do well, and then we are back to beefy machine syndrome again. Child-friendly cartoon graphics will remain that, regardless of bump maps and lighting effects.

    Once again, it is not the simplification of models, it is the direction of style that is the real issue. It is a total departure from what we were lead to believe we were getting. If someone at VR had shown these graphics when I pledged, I would have said "shame!" and moved right along. 

    • 78 posts
    September 25, 2023 6:51 AM PDT

    chenzeme said:

    These take processing power to do well, and then we are back to beefy machine syndrome again. Child-friendly cartoon graphics will remain that, regardless of bump maps and lighting effects.

    -

     

    Uhhh no they won't?  You can find a balance between hand painted and processing power.  As well as balance between fantasy and cartoony.

    • 78 posts
    September 25, 2023 6:52 AM PDT

    dorotea said:

    Xerion - In other words, we have jumped back to another do-over but in many months we may expect the new style to be as developed as the old style had been when it was abandonned?

     

    No?  Focus on polish work =/= complete redo/overhaul.

    • 902 posts
    September 25, 2023 7:06 AM PDT

    Xerion said:

    chenzeme said:

    These take processing power to do well, and then we are back to beefy machine syndrome again. Child-friendly cartoon graphics will remain that, regardless of bump maps and lighting effects.

    -

     

    Uhhh no they won't?  You can find a balance between hand painted and processing power.  As well as balance between fantasy and cartoony.

    And you could apply that argument to the original graphics too. My point is that child friendly graphics will remain child friendly graphics no matter how much lighting you give it. It is the chosen style that I have issues with!

     


    This post was edited by chenzeme at September 25, 2023 7:07 AM PDT
    • 78 posts
    September 25, 2023 7:42 AM PDT

    And you could apply that argument to the original graphics too. My point is that child friendly graphics will remain child friendly graphics no matter how much lighting you give it. It is the chosen style that I have issues with!

     

     

    Correct.  You can apply and still apply.  They went too far in the cartoony direction.  Of course things change based on lighting, do you remember the HDR on vs off video?   It changes ALOT.  The chosen style is not carved in stone, it can be adjusted.  So again, it goes back to what I said before, find the balance.

    • 96 posts
    September 26, 2023 7:01 PM PDT

    Allow modders to create client side only graphical overhaul packages with HD textures and shaders. Akin to EQ allowing UI skins. I'm sure there's already plenty of people who know how to do that with Unity.


    This post was edited by SilkyWhip at September 26, 2023 7:01 PM PDT
    • 252 posts
    September 26, 2023 7:56 PM PDT

    SilkyWhip said:

    Allow modders to create client side only graphical overhaul packages with HD textures and shaders. Akin to EQ allowing UI skins. I'm sure there's already plenty of people who know how to do that with Unity.

    Can be exploited. Like make your crafting nodes appear bright and stand out. That's just one example.