Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

New Art Video :-(

    • 167 posts
    September 25, 2023 5:36 AM PDT

    I mean the game wasn't performing "even on beefier machines" so what do people expect?  Unless some of you complaining, plan on giving VR millions of dollars to hire a bigger team of artists, they don't have a choice.

    I'm sure almost all of us would prefer realistic graphics, but they've stated they can't do it, the team is too small and the funding is too tight.  So instead of just complaining, make suggestions about how to improve the new art style to make it into something you WOULD be happy with.  Doesn't mean they'll get included sure, but VR would happily take some good suggestions, as we've already seen.  I made a thread specifically for the purpose of suggesting new ideas for the new art style, but almost no one responded because the truth is people just want to whine.  

    • 903 posts
    September 25, 2023 6:26 AM PDT

    Thing is Prevenge, [redacted, NDA]

    I believe a good whine and moan is exactly what is needed here, too. And I did also make a suggestion, although it was on "New art suggestions" and not "New Art Video :(" But hey!


    This post was edited by Ranarius at September 25, 2023 7:52 AM PDT
    • 167 posts
    September 25, 2023 8:22 AM PDT

    chenzeme said:

    Thing is Prevenge, [redacted, NDA]

    I believe a good whine and moan is exactly what is needed here, too. And I did also make a suggestion, although it was on "New art suggestions" and not "New Art Video :(" But hey!

     

    I know you did, but unfortunately not many did.  I just mean there's 100x more whine posts than suggesting changes/ideas posts.

     

    At the end of the day VR can't do anything about "wah I don't like it" but they can do something about "Here's one thing I don't like and a couple ideas I've come up with on how you VR could improve it"  if they agree with the comment.

    • 226 posts
    September 25, 2023 12:13 PM PDT

    Prevenge said:

    chenzeme said:

    Thing is Prevenge, [redacted, NDA]

    I believe a good whine and moan is exactly what is needed here, too. And I did also make a suggestion, although it was on "New art suggestions" and not "New Art Video :(" But hey!

    I know you did, but unfortunately not many did.  I just mean there's 100x more whine posts than suggesting changes/ideas posts.

     At the end of the day VR can't do anything about "wah I don't like it" but they can do something about "Here's one thing I don't like and a couple ideas I've come up with on how you VR could improve it"  if they agree with the comment.

    I think there needs to be a healthy dose of "wah I don't like it" first. Then the constructive criticism can come after they wake up and realize that many people, probably most, hate the new art. 


    This post was edited by Sweety at September 25, 2023 12:14 PM PDT
    • 903 posts
    September 25, 2023 1:12 PM PDT

    Wow. NICE ONE VR!

    OK then. I have not seen an issue with any frame rate on any official stream. So I do not understand the official reason of render rates requiring a complete rework of graphics style. Just does not make sense.

     Is that NDA OK?


    This post was edited by chenzeme at September 25, 2023 1:13 PM PDT
    • 1289 posts
    September 25, 2023 1:22 PM PDT

    chenzeme said: Is that NDA OK?

    Haha, yeah that's cool.

     

    (NDA prevents us from talking about anything related to our experience in game)

    • 167 posts
    September 28, 2023 7:52 AM PDT

    Sweety said:

    Prevenge said:

    chenzeme said:

    Thing is Prevenge, [redacted, NDA]

    I believe a good whine and moan is exactly what is needed here, too. And I did also make a suggestion, although it was on "New art suggestions" and not "New Art Video :(" But hey!

    I know you did, but unfortunately not many did.  I just mean there's 100x more whine posts than suggesting changes/ideas posts.

     At the end of the day VR can't do anything about "wah I don't like it" but they can do something about "Here's one thing I don't like and a couple ideas I've come up with on how you VR could improve it"  if they agree with the comment.

    I think there needs to be a healthy dose of "wah I don't like it" first. Then the constructive criticism can come after they wake up and realize that many people, probably most, hate the new art. 

    It's definitely not "most" though.  It looks like that because you're on the Pantheon forums and currently people took to the forums to complain about the new change.  Everyone who is happy with the change isn't here, they are back to their regular lives, waiting for more art update videos.  

    Look at the youtube comments on the video now that there's a ton.  A LOT of people think it's a good change and are interested in it.  I don't think the change is as hated as a few of you make it out to be.  

    • 3852 posts
    September 28, 2023 8:48 AM PDT

    Prevenge - I think most people that were looking to see Everquest reborn or Vanguard reborn (in terms of basic approach to the genre not in terms of having the same cities and plot lines) are far from happy with a cartoon look. As the team improves what they have most of us are likely to become more accepting but few of us are likely to ever prefer a cartton look. There is also quite likely an age factor involved. Those of us who grew up when cartoons were something for 12-year olds and younger children and we were expected to outgrow them or be teased mercilessly have, and will always have, a different outlook towards cartoons. Not all of us but a much higher percentage of people in those demographic ranges.

    VR did an excellent job of explaining things in the newsletter that just came out. They do not play the "we are small and underfunded and this is simply the best we can do with what we have" card as often as they might, but here the use of that card was perfect.

    • 44 posts
    September 28, 2023 9:51 AM PDT

    dorotea said:

    I think most people that were looking to see Everquest reborn or Vanguard reborn (in terms of basic approach to the genre not in terms of having the same cities and plot lines) are far from happy with a cartoon look.

    This is me. I like playing realistic-looking close-perspective games like Everquest, Elder Scrolls, Witcher, Dragon Age, and New World. I haven't ever felt immursed in a game to where I lose my sense of self when the graphics look like WoW, Fortnite, or Zelda. Sure those games can be fun looking like that, but when the colors and lighting don't feel realistic and the level of detail isn't there then it doesn't feel like a living, breathing world -- it feels like just another videogame.

    I hope VR takes this into account as they progress in building out the world in a new art-style.

    • 206 posts
    September 28, 2023 10:24 AM PDT

    IMO, The new art is honestly not great. The photo they added on the Pantheon home screen has this stone statue with green accent that looks incredibly corny. Is it suppoosed to be giving me a sense of danger or fright? I think it might for a 3-7 year old.

    That is all fine and well that they want me to be able to run the game smooth on my computer, because honestly, my machine is not up to date with the latest tech.

    What I fear will occurr down the road is that the bad taste in our mouths with the new art style will be worse if another bad change happens.

    For example, to better explain what I mean, lets say we all get on board with the art style, even though we still arent impressed with it, but then the devs change someone else we wanted or were promised, now its REALLY going to become an issue. Its like doubling down on the negative. 

    I can 100% see why they made this change, productivity increase, broader audience, etc. but their might be concern to the core followers of the game if significant changes continue. 


    This post was edited by Valorous1 at September 28, 2023 11:49 AM PDT
    • 185 posts
    September 28, 2023 11:17 AM PDT

    Valorous1 said:

    IMO, The new art is honestly not great. The photo they added on the Pantheon home screen has this stone statue with green accent that looks incredibly corny. Is it suppoosed to be giving me a sense of danger or fright? I think it might for a 3-7 year old. Thats all well and fine that they want me to be able to run that on my computer well, because honestly, my machine is not up to date with the latest tech, but what I fear will occurr down the road, is that the bad taste in our mouths with the new art style will be worse if another bad change happens.

    For example, to better explain what I mean, lets say we all get on board with the art style, even though we still arent impressed with it, but then the devs change someone else we wanted or were promised, now its REALLY going to become an issue. Its like doubling down on the negative. 

    I can 100% see why they made this change, productivity increase, broader audience, etc. but their might be concern to the core followers of the game if significant changes continue. 

     

    Agreed. And my mid tier pc runs the pre-alpha game just fine, no issues at all. I can't imagine your pc would have problems right now either.

    And keep in mind, that by the time the game is actually released, even low end PCs would have Zero problem running the game with the old graphics.

    This had nothing to do with "Performance Issues". Its 100% about appealing to a new demographic of fickle adolecent gamers who they think will make them millionairs.

    Thats higher fantasy then the game itself.

    • 167 posts
    September 28, 2023 11:30 AM PDT

    Valorous1 said:

    IMO, The new art is honestly not great. The photo they added on the Pantheon home screen has this stone statue with green accent that looks incredibly corny. Is it suppoosed to be giving me a sense of danger or fright? I think it might for a 3-7 year old. Thats all well and fine that they want me to be able to run that on my computer well, because honestly, my machine is not up to date with the latest tech, but what I fear will occurr down the road, is that the bad taste in our mouths with the new art style will be worse if another bad change happens.

    For example, to better explain what I mean, lets say we all get on board with the art style, even though we still arent impressed with it, but then the devs change someone else we wanted or were promised, now its REALLY going to become an issue. Its like doubling down on the negative. 

    I can 100% see why they made this change, productivity increase, broader audience, etc. but their might be concern to the core followers of the game if significant changes continue. 

     

    I couldn't help but laugh reading this comment.  Goes to show how subjective taste in art truly is.  That "corny statue" was my favorite part of the art reveal.  I thought it looked cool.  And while I'm not a 3-7 year old, I am a 37 year old.  I think it looks 1000x better in the video than it does on the screenshot, to be fair though.  

    • 206 posts
    September 28, 2023 11:46 AM PDT

    Prevenge said:

    Valorous1 said:

    IMO, The new art is honestly not great. The photo they added on the Pantheon home screen has this stone statue with green accent that looks incredibly corny. Is it suppoosed to be giving me a sense of danger or fright? I think it might for a 3-7 year old. Thats all well and fine that they want me to be able to run that on my computer well, because honestly, my machine is not up to date with the latest tech, but what I fear will occurr down the road, is that the bad taste in our mouths with the new art style will be worse if another bad change happens.

    For example, to better explain what I mean, lets say we all get on board with the art style, even though we still arent impressed with it, but then the devs change someone else we wanted or were promised, now its REALLY going to become an issue. Its like doubling down on the negative. 

    I can 100% see why they made this change, productivity increase, broader audience, etc. but their might be concern to the core followers of the game if significant changes continue. 

     

    I couldn't help but laugh reading this comment.  Goes to show how subjective taste in art truly is.  That "corny statue" was my favorite part of the art reveal.  I thought it looked cool.  And while I'm not a 3-7 year old, I am a 37 year old.  I think it looks 1000x better in the video than it does on the screenshot, to be fair though.  

     

    Im happy that you're here then and are a supporter of Pantheon like the rest of us.

    • 167 posts
    September 28, 2023 11:49 AM PDT

    dorotea said:

    Prevenge - I think most people that were looking to see Everquest reborn or Vanguard reborn (in terms of basic approach to the genre not in terms of having the same cities and plot lines) are far from happy with a cartoon look. As the team improves what they have most of us are likely to become more accepting but few of us are likely to ever prefer a cartton look. There is also quite likely an age factor involved. Those of us who grew up when cartoons were something for 12-year olds and younger children and we were expected to outgrow them or be teased mercilessly have, and will always have, a different outlook towards cartoons. Not all of us but a much higher percentage of people in those demographic ranges.

    I've played almost every mmorpg from the launch of EQ until now and EQ is still the only one I always end up back on.  I get it, believe me.  I just know that I still fully enjoy p99 even though it looks signifanctly worse than any of these gmes, so if Pantheon pulls off the same feelings that EQ gameplay gave and continues to give me, then I personally don't care what art style they have to use to make it work as well as possible.  

    • 129 posts
    September 28, 2023 6:10 PM PDT

    I just popped in to say, I think the new art direction is a step in the right direction. The last few streams looked so awful and dated, it basically scrubbed any interest I had, as well as others. I could just go play P99 if I had the itch vs. play a game that would launch in 2023+ looking worse than the EQ1 graphic redesign. Let's be real, people say graphics don't matter but then they have some standards when dating, shopping, or house hunting. To some degree, graphics do matter. No one aspires to drive a rust bucket, with torn up seats, plastic / duct tapped wrapped windows that looks like it just floated in from the Dead Sea, despite the fact it may be hiding a supercharged V8 that runs great.

    The kids, now adults, of today have grown up playing Fortnite, Apex, Overwatch, TF2, etc. This art style will likely be this games saving grace as one of the things this game will need most is a playing playerbase. As long as the character features stay sharp, without the rounded exaggerated features, I'll bite.

    Just don't go overboard, like that furry costume looking wolf smile, eye thing going on... Make the wolf look more like a wolf and less like a mascot.

    • 226 posts
    September 28, 2023 6:41 PM PDT

    Rogue said:I just popped in to say, I think the new art direction is a step in the right direction. The last few streams looked so awful and dated, it basically scrubbed any interest I had, as well as others. I could just go play P99 if I had the itch vs. play a game that would launch in 2023+ looking worse than the EQ1 graphic redesign. Let's be real, people say graphics don't matter but then they have some standards when dating, shopping, or house hunting. To some degree, graphics do matter. No one aspires to drive a rust bucket, with torn up seats, plastic / duct tapped wrapped windows that looks like it just floated in from the Dead Sea, despite the fact it may be hiding a supercharged V8 that runs great.

    The kids, now adults, of today have grown up playing Fortnite, Apex, Overwatch, TF2, etc. This art style will likely be this games saving grace as one of the things this game will need most is a playing playerbase. As long as the character features stay sharp, without the rounded exaggerated features, I'll bite.

    Just don't go overboard, like that furry costume looking wolf smile, eye thing going on... Make the wolf look more like a wolf and less like a mascot

    I somewhat agree with you. I passionately hate the new art, however I agree the last few streams showed very ugly graphics.  I think most of us were under the impression that it was so bad because it was just pre-alpha, so we kind looked past it. I just think we went from bad to worse. I wasn’t expecting cutting edge effect, art-style and graphics. But I also wasn’t expecting a cartoon-video game.


    This post was edited by Sweety at September 28, 2023 6:42 PM PDT
    • 33 posts
    September 29, 2023 12:07 AM PDT

    Rogue said:

    Just don't go overboard, like that furry costume looking wolf smile, eye thing going on... Make the wolf look more like a wolf and less like a mascot.

    Yeah, VR really need to step back on the "furry" art.


    This post was edited by Nivea at September 29, 2023 12:08 AM PDT
    • 12 posts
    September 29, 2023 7:02 PM PDT

    Rogue said:

    I just popped in to say, I think the new art direction is a step in the right direction. The last few streams looked so awful and dated, it basically scrubbed any interest I had, as well as others. I could just go play P99 if I had the itch vs. play a game that would launch in 2023+ looking worse than the EQ1 graphic redesign. Let's be real, people say graphics don't matter but then they have some standards when dating, shopping, or house hunting. To some degree, graphics do matter. No one aspires to drive a rust bucket, with torn up seats, plastic / duct tapped wrapped windows that looks like it just floated in from the Dead Sea, despite the fact it may be hiding a supercharged V8 that runs great.

    The kids, now adults, of today have grown up playing Fortnite, Apex, Overwatch, TF2, etc. This art style will likely be this games saving grace as one of the things this game will need most is a playing playerbase. As long as the character features stay sharp, without the rounded exaggerated features, I'll bite.

    Just don't go overboard, like that furry costume looking wolf smile, eye thing going on... Make the wolf look more like a wolf and less like a mascot.

     

    I agree that the Unity store characters looked bad but we all assumed they would fix that last after building the world and the mechanics.  With these new graphics, all we need are high heels and wings on the females and some Tony the Tiger races to fluff all these new models out.  This looks like what Sony released in 2009 as Free Realms.  And while it doesn't appeal to me, Free Realms got good reviews at the time:  "An extrordinary online adventure that is sure to please tweens and teens looking for a fun fantasy world."

    So not for me, but maybe for more people now with this change.  

    • 167 posts
    September 30, 2023 11:33 AM PDT

    I agree that the Unity store characters looked bad but we all assumed they would fix that last after building the world and the mechanics.  With these new graphics, all we need are high heels and wings on the females and some Tony the Tiger races to fluff all these new models out.  This looks like what Sony released in 2009 as Free Realms.  And while it doesn't appeal to me, Free Realms got good reviews at the time:  "An extrordinary online adventure that is sure to please tweens and teens looking for a fun fantasy world."

    So not for me, but maybe for more people now with this change.  

    I mean it's still going to have similar gameplay and mechanics and group play that we all loved from EQ and still want.  Even if the look changes, it's still not going to be anything like any of those other MMORPGs. 

    I just got my GF to try her first mmorpg with P99, actually her first PC game ever and she thinks it looks hilarious, but she's quite enjoying it now that we're into the mid teen levels.  Out of curiosity sake, since she's never seen Pantheon I showed her some old gameplay versus the new video and she thinks the new art style looks much better.  She thinks the characters movement and animations look the same as EQ in the old art style.  Part of me thinks people are just so used to what it's looked like for 10 years that they are absolutely jarred into anger and resentment over the change, but I have a feeling most will come around and in the long run, most will very much enjoy the game, regardless of the art style.  

    • 89 posts
    September 30, 2023 3:11 PM PDT

    Donler said:

    dorotea said:

    I think most people that were looking to see Everquest reborn or Vanguard reborn (in terms of basic approach to the genre not in terms of having the same cities and plot lines) are far from happy with a cartoon look.

    This is me. I like playing realistic-looking close-perspective games like Everquest, Elder Scrolls, Witcher, Dragon Age, and New World. I haven't ever felt immursed in a game to where I lose my sense of self when the graphics look like WoW, Fortnite, or Zelda. Sure those games can be fun looking like that, but when the colors and lighting don't feel realistic and the level of detail isn't there then it doesn't feel like a living, breathing world -- it feels like just another videogame.

    I hope VR takes this into account as they progress in building out the world in a new art-style.

    Well said that is exactly why I do not like the changes. It is a big deal for me. Of course gameplay is important but so is the look of the game. That type of look is one of the reasons I never liked Wow.

    • 89 posts
    September 30, 2023 3:13 PM PDT

    Samatman said:

    Rogue said:

    I just popped in to say, I think the new art direction is a step in the right direction. The last few streams looked so awful and dated, it basically scrubbed any interest I had, as well as others. I could just go play P99 if I had the itch vs. play a game that would launch in 2023+ looking worse than the EQ1 graphic redesign. Let's be real, people say graphics don't matter but then they have some standards when dating, shopping, or house hunting. To some degree, graphics do matter. No one aspires to drive a rust bucket, with torn up seats, plastic / duct tapped wrapped windows that looks like it just floated in from the Dead Sea, despite the fact it may be hiding a supercharged V8 that runs great.

    The kids, now adults, of today have grown up playing Fortnite, Apex, Overwatch, TF2, etc. This art style will likely be this games saving grace as one of the things this game will need most is a playing playerbase. As long as the character features stay sharp, without the rounded exaggerated features, I'll bite.

    Just don't go overboard, like that furry costume looking wolf smile, eye thing going on... Make the wolf look more like a wolf and less like a mascot.

     

    The problem with that is the more people who may be drawn in were not supporters like many of us. We paid into a game expecting one thing and now a major part of that has changed. I feel somewhat cheated to be honest.

    I agree that the Unity store characters looked bad but we all assumed they would fix that last after building the world and the mechanics.  With these new graphics, all we need are high heels and wings on the females and some Tony the Tiger races to fluff all these new models out.  This looks like what Sony released in 2009 as Free Realms.  And while it doesn't appeal to me, Free Realms got good reviews at the time:  "An extrordinary online adventure that is sure to please tweens and teens looking for a fun fantasy world."

    So not for me, but maybe for more people now with this change.  

    • 264 posts
    October 1, 2023 10:42 AM PDT

    Sweety said:

    It’s starting to feel like you are making a WoW clone. Defenders of VR may say …” it's just the art, the game play will be different!” Maybe, but they explicitly said in the new video the reason for the art was to make the game run smoother and to bring more players in the game. You know what else will bring the game more players? Making WoW 2.0.

    This is starting to look quite different then the game we were promised. Makes me worry a lot. I’m sure all the fanboys will come running to defend the art. But I hate it. Super cartoony, corny and made for children. I thought Pantheon’s current market was old school MMO (EQ) people. I’m guessing that’s the majority of people that pledged.  

    To be fair I didn’t think the old graphics were great either, but I figured that’s because it was just alpha, and things would improve. Also, to be fair, WoW does run super smooth. Though, the game sucks and the community of kids that play WoW are the worst scum the world has ever seen. If that demographic of people are lured to Pantheon, we’re doomed!

     

    There are a lot of problems with the new art. Way too bright and colorful for one thing. But more than that it's very cartoony, looking nothing like the art we saw previously..it's not even close. It's completely different from what they have been showing us for what, 8 years? I mean why stop here? Why not just make it a 2 dimensional isometric view? If the team is struggling this much I'm beyond concerned.

    • 48 posts
    October 4, 2023 8:41 PM PDT

    Prevenge said:

    Sweety said:

    Prevenge said:

    chenzeme said:

    Thing is Prevenge, [redacted, NDA]

    I believe a good whine and moan is exactly what is needed here, too. And I did also make a suggestion, although it was on "New art suggestions" and not "New Art Video :(" But hey!

    I know you did, but unfortunately not many did.  I just mean there's 100x more whine posts than suggesting changes/ideas posts.

     At the end of the day VR can't do anything about "wah I don't like it" but they can do something about "Here's one thing I don't like and a couple ideas I've come up with on how you VR could improve it"  if they agree with the comment.

    I think there needs to be a healthy dose of "wah I don't like it" first. Then the constructive criticism can come after they wake up and realize that many people, probably most, hate the new art. 

    It's definitely not "most" though.  It looks like that because you're on the Pantheon forums and currently people took to the forums to complain about the new change.  Everyone who is happy with the change isn't here, they are back to their regular lives, waiting for more art update videos.  

    Look at the youtube comments on the video now that there's a ton.  A LOT of people think it's a good change and are interested in it.  I don't think the change is as hated as a few of you make it out to be.  

    Actually, it's a 50/50 split and that's not a good thing - re-enabling YouTube likes to dislikes really help :). Had we talked about the majority liking it say 80/20 or 90/10 sure. No problem, but as it stands they're looking at the prospect of losing half of whatever remaining people waiting for this game and they may toot: "It's to speed up development", but that's a load of ..... That's what they said about classes too and Faerthale was supposed to speed up zone building and we'd get to test it "real soon".... Yeah.. So that never happened.

    Here's what is actually correct in that letter they gave us all as a LOOK HOW GOOD WE ARE.

    - They're dumping the old school players in favor of the masses. That's why they want to appeal to a broader and younger audience. An audience that would never in a million years play a game such as Pantheon. They can't go zoom. So that begs the question, what else is in store for attracting a broader audience? We gonna get rid of group play? Instanced dungeons?
    - They've been making so many rookie mistakes and apparently have had zero coordination for the past 10 years.. Whatsoever. Like.. At all it seems - which is baffling and I honestly believe them wholeheartedly when they say: It would take too long, because I don't think they have enough funding to finish the vision Brad had.