“How do I play with my dwarf buddy if I roll a halfling?”
As much as I want to tell them to just use the magic of friendship, this question has been a hot one lately. It got a lot of air time from Joppa and has made the rounds more than once in the forums. The content creators all assisted beating it into the ground as well.
We keep hearing the same arguments over and over. We want to play with our friends, but we don’t want to cheese traveling either. So, we just say that somewhere in the future the problem will miraculously be solved by some half cheese, half complicated way to travel to your friend; that way, everyone is upset. We wouldn’t want to leave anyone out.
As much as I firmly believe that in leadership, the goal of make everyone the equal amount of miserable is the correct way to deal with differing opinions, it does not have to be that way for this problem. There is an obvious solution I have not heard from anyone.
Let’s do an example. Meet Quillian the human paladin. Say hello, Quillian. Quillian is so excited to play with his buddy Flogtard the ogre shaman. Say hello, Flogtard. The problem is that Quillian the human is on the far east side of the continent of Kingsreach and Flogtard is in the center of the continent of Reignfall. As newbs, they were hoping to figure this game out together and get those early groups going. Wait, ogres and humans want to play together? Is that allowed? Uh, yeah.
Well, if they can play together, does that mean I may run into some ogres around Kingsreach or run into humans around Reignfall. I would hope so. As far as we can tell, there are no races actively warring with another race in this game except for the Skar who war with everyone.
So, why is it then that Quillian the human or Flogtard the ogre can’t start in each other’s cities, or a different city altogether?
Highbrace has always been a port city that would potentially be full of all sorts of races. Same goes for Ru’lun. There’s probably several places that would be considered neutral. But, I don’t want to get sucked into the neutral cities concept. Instead, I want to lean into VR’s vision for faction.
Faction has been touted as a great revival in Pantheon. Faction will matter in many aspects of the game, access to places, people, gear, loot, quests, etc. If we are leaning so hard into faction, why not use it to give ourselves the easy lay up on this question of newb friends.
Quillian the paladin is all about service to Queen Amenthiel of Thronefast. He’ll be a good little soldier and do her bidding, regardless of how corrupt King Avendyr’s family lineage is… forgive me, that’s another post. Flogtard, while appreciating being an ogre, isn’t necessarily tied to having to start in his smelly starting city of Broken Maw. Well, isn’t Thronefast a hub of unbigoted merchants and nobility? When Quillian the paladin logs in and takes his initial drafting letter to the head paladin in Ocirico’s Forum, he should presumably be set, using some EQ terminology, from indifferent to warmly. He’s a paladin in good standing. A rogue who starts with his opening turn-in shouldn’t get a bump for Thronefast factions but stay indifferent. But, let’s have Flogtard the wayward ogre who is starting his adventure with his mate he met on a trader vessel swabbing decks, follow him to Thronefast to start their adventure. The people around here don’t necessarily like the smell of ogres, but he’s got his buddy who can vouch for him, so instead of an ogre starting in Broken Maw who may be threatening or dubious, since there is no war between humans and ogres presently, Flogtard takes his letter to the head shaman out in the Foreland, tells them he’s good buds with Quillian, and starts his journey with decent faction with the local shamans and dubious to indifferent with Thronefast.
This could be done for every conceivable starting location with every class/race combo using modifiers to the starting factions. Elves take a minimal hit to their home faction starting in a human city while taking a slight boost in that city, but elves starting in Skargol, take a huge hit to their home faction and a hit to their Skar faction, but not enough to be KOS.
Why, in a role-playing game, would we arbitrarily handcuff our player’s stories out the gate? If I want to be a dark myr rogue who has taken up residence in Wild’s End because I ran away from home as a young myr-man and the halfling ladies love my sexy blue skin, I should be able to do that, take the necessary faction hits, and grow my story from there.
In this way, we can completely eliminate the need to compromise on the starting city friend dilemma AND simultaneously make the gameplay, factions, roleplaying, and starting city make-up much more interesting.
As someone who intends to play a human rogue and eventually become very unpopular with the leadership in my starting city, having another city to start in, say Skydurbin or Highbrace or Ru’lun, sounds like such a more fascinating and compelling start to my character.
For those who like to state the obvious, this has the downside of causing a headache for devs needing starting mobs in different places. This is true. It is a problem, but a considerably smaller problem than the transport problem from before. Having players of different races start in the same place at least gets them together. From there, they could potentially hit up the small amount of starting quests in that spot OR move along to one of the main starting hubs. There’s nothing wrong with some travel at the beginning. They’re doing it together. That’s an adventure, not a tedious chore. Even if only starting in the racial starting cities was a thing, all the components are there to allow for that naturally. The only thing necessary would be the faction hits and maybe an allowance of different responses from the starting class areas.
Another issue this may bring up with curmudgeony characters is that those factions moves should be worked for, not given away because of where you start. My first reaction to that is get over it, but that won’t suffice here. Devs have all the tools necessary to balance the pros and cons of not starting in your home city. This might start you in a better place to grind the faction for that sweet two-hander you want, but it will also make it much harder to get the boots you want cuz that faction goes down. It’s the same for every race and every class. You’re going to have imbalance in starting faction for different gear you may want but it’s not a bad thing. It makes the choices you make creating your character mean something. And isn’t that what we all want, for our choices to have consequences?
That’s it. Leave some comments stating foreseeable problems or additional advantages to this solution. Hopefully, as we move closer to Alpha and Beta, we can assist the devs in making Pantheon the coolest MMO from day one of our journeys. Later everybody and Viva RACHA.
Personally I don't find the friends of different races starting in different locations a "problem" to be solved by anything other than friend ingenuity within the game.
One doesn't get to craft their own backstory skirting the setting of the world or their place in it, you make that happen. You write that story from the moment you enter the world. A group of friends traveling to all meet up is their own unique tale within the lands. Working that reputation to be accepted in whatever cities they want along the way. When did playing a game and having some frankly unique experiences like the early travels to explore and meet up become a "tedious chore" instead of an adventure? I really don't understand those who so strongly feel VR have to put something in to circumvent the need to put some small effort (minutes to maybe an hour or two in a hundreds if not thousands of hours journey?) into meeting up at the start.
The gain is you start with your friends right from the get go and the loss is while you level a bit before to attempt the travel you miss out on possible early random social possibilities of starting solo in your area. Possibly easier to do with as a group of travellers than solo. You also eliminate the disussion you would have with your friends(assuming you're in discord together) about what your area looks like, how busy, what quests you got, etc... I think there's more to playing together than being together in game that shouldn't be necessarily circumvented and discounted.
I will be playing with my wife, we may not start together which I also consider a positive. She can work on her class/crafting learning it solo until I feel ready to make my attempt to reach her and give all my crafting stuff to her...I already know I'm making the run.
I believe VR is conscious of this and hopefully tune it right that it doesn't take too long. I foresee them requesting a great newbie run trial to see out of 100 lvl1 how many can make the journey...prizing includes a beer, pizza and a medal of honour
I love this. I also am curious about playing with friends without having to decided if whether we want to start continents away or choose races that are closer to each other. I agree with this solution 100%! On the other hand I do understand where others, who will oppose this, will be coming from. I never played EQ, but I have heard the nostalgic stories of making that fateful run for city to city. Sure you will probably be able to do that, but does it have to be the only way? Choice is in the heart of Pantheon is it not? Well, I may choose to take a faction hit to be closer to my friends and play with them earlier. While also setting myself up to being closer to a certain faction that I know I want to grind and be the race/class combo that I envision from the start. This may seem like having your cake and eating it too, but, who doesn't love cake? :-)
I think the integrity of the world is more important than bending it so that players always get what they want. This world is being built with rules, and history, and laws, and I don't know what those will be yet, but I do want the integrity to hold up. If that can be done while also alowing players to get whatever they want rather than being asked to make a decision between their favorite race and their real life friends then I guess I'm all for it. I'll never totally understand it though, if I want to play with my real life friend we make a choice together within the world that allows us to play together. If playing a specific race/class combo is more important to me than I choose that. It's not all that different than when I ask a friend if they want to go ride bikes and he's like "nah, I want to play basketball" ... I can either join him and play basketball or I can go ride bikes without him.
Ranarius said:It's not all that different than when I ask a friend if they want to go ride bikes and he's like "nah, I want to play basketball" ... I can either join him and play basketball or I can go ride bikes without him.
I do get it. I was hardline against this as well until recently. I definitely don't want to cheese travel. That's the worst thing they can do. But having to start with painful faction hits may be a way to keep it doable without cheesing the experience side of the game. And it in line with being able to make choices that have consequences if you choose to accept them.
My anecdote would be more like a friend of mine and I want to play video games, but I have CoD on PC and he only has it on XBOX, and vice versa for say Apex Legends. We decide wich one of us is going to be stuck playing on the crusty console and which will be on the high and exalted PC. Someone will have an advantage and now you have to choose.
IMO:
Benonai said:...
So, why is it then that Quillian the human or Flogtard the ogre can’t start in each other’s cities, or a different city altogether?
...
Is a great question, and what you've outlined is a good solution.
It's a practical problem that will happen. Players will want to start out together. Using faction or other consequences, but still allowing them to start in common, neutral or otherwise similar locations is an elegant solution to the problem. Will be a problem on launch day. Will be a problem 1 month post-launch. Will be a problem 1 year post-launch.
It's great to see a positive solution ahead of the problem. Hopefully Visionary Realms avails themselves of this or a similar solution that permits players to start playing together, in Pantheon.
Iksar said:Personally I don't find the friends of different races starting in different locations a "problem" to be solved by anything other than friend ingenuity within the game.
One doesn't get to craft their own backstory skirting the setting of the world or their place in it, you make that happen. You write that story from the moment you enter the world. A group of friends traveling to all meet up is their own unique tale within the lands. Working that reputation to be accepted in whatever cities they want along the way. When did playing a game and having some frankly unique experiences like the early travels to explore and meet up become a "tedious chore" instead of an adventure? I really don't understand those who so strongly feel VR have to put something in to circumvent the need to put some small effort (minutes to maybe an hour or two in a hundreds if not thousands of hours journey?) into meeting up at the start.
I was going to type a reply but this one pretty much is it. Agree w/ Iksar, here.
What never gets answered, or at least I never see it answered is where is the potential compromise between the friends? Why is this always presented as neither side willing to budge in their choice of race/class? Which is more important, the race or the class? If your choice of class appears across multiple races, and one of those races is near to where your friends start, then clearly you think race is more important than the class if you aren't willing to switch races.
I dont want to see someone pick choose Ogre as their race and Warrior as their class which should start on Reignfall but then being able to choose starting in Thronefast where humans can also be warriors. Race and class are choices that have consequences. So, if your friends are really that important to you, then someone should compromise if starting together is that important.
I think many people forget that even starting far across the world, friends can still enjoy their gametime together through voice comms, etc, living vicariously through listening to the others talk about their experiences. Then, later on at higher levels, they can join up somewhere in the world.
Vandraad said:What never gets answered, or at least I never see it answered is where is the potential compromise between the friends? Why is this always presented as neither side willing to budge in their choice of race/class? Which is more important, the race or the class? If your choice of class appears across multiple races, and one of those races is near to where your friends start, then clearly you think race is more important than the class if you aren't willing to switch races.
I dont want to see someone pick choose Ogre as their race and Warrior as their class which should start on Reignfall but then being able to choose starting in Thronefast where humans can also be warriors. Race and class are choices that have consequences. So, if your friends are really that important to you, then someone should compromise if starting together is that important.
I think many people forget that even starting far across the world, friends can still enjoy their gametime together through voice comms, etc, living vicariously through listening to the others talk about their experiences. Then, later on at higher levels, they can join up somewhere in the world.
That was the question presented in this thread. Dwarf/Halfling. Years ago I brought and Ogre to Blackburrow to level with gnoll groups. We had a great time. Did you know there's a doorway that Ogres couldn't fit through? People laughed their ass off.
Now, instead, imagine me telling all the people at blackburrow about how much fun I was having with the three other ogres in my starting area. Actually don't.. even imagining that is boring.
Well said Tigersin. The fact it was difficult is what made it unique and memorable. The world itself also gave a reason for it to be difficult and it wasn't an arbitrary random human starting area 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5.
I want the cities and factions to have character precicely for this kind of reason. I'd also be happy if the races didn't blindly trust every other race. Need to grind factions before entering the inner ogre city as an elf? Lets play out the faction rivalries, learning their languages, make it a proper achievment to be accepted in the ogre city. "WTF, you met the warchief as an elf? That takes dedication."
I want the RPG aspect to come first.
I agree with Iskar and Vandraad. Plus, VR already has something in place and has touched on it. I don't see this as being a real issue until we get a better understanding of what VR has planned. I also feel that players who REALLY want to play together should compromise or plan a way using whatever VR has in place when we find out. I'm not really in support of them having the lore rewritten for players to start in the same city(with different races) in a situation that has many options, possibly, within the system VR already has planned.
There's no need for anything like this, as it just ends up taking more away from the world than adding to it.
Changes like this simply homogenise the world more and make the player choices meaningless.
You either have class and race and starting location restrictions along with evil/good alignment. Or you do away with all of it and have a generic homogenised MMOrpg (not much RPG left).
Without the restrictions in EQ we wouldn't have had all the stories of people running across the world against the odds; dying, getting lost, meeting new friends, being helped by a high level guide, barely making it through an area or the satisfaction and success of actually making it somewhere far away and achieving that. Whether to meet a friend or just your own personal journey.
It'll also mean if you do eventually see a low level player Ogre in Kingsreach for example while levelling, you'll be surprised, probably end up striking up a conversation and be interested in how he/she did it and why.
Restrictions actually end up giving the RPG side of things more, more meaning, more meaningful choices.
Removing all of these restrictions and homogenising the world actually ends up giving us less, because the world becomes bland.
As the OP noted this has come up quite a few times over the years though rarely put as well or with as much detail. My own feeling has generally been that if people are that desperate to play together from level one on they can choose the same race. If they are that desperate to play different races thay can wait to see eachother for whatever number of levels it takes.
While I have no objection to different races having the option to start in eachother's starting areas I will toss out a different answer. One perhaps easier for the developers and friendlier to the lore.
Have an extra starting area. It need not be as detailed as the others since it need not ease players into the backstories and concerns and constraints of their races. Call it something like Exile's Home.
Every race can start there. Every NPC is used to dealing with exiles of any race so even races normally kill-on-sight to each other can get along. I won't go into more detail - other games have done this and the method is fairly straightforward. So is the mechanism - any character upon creation has the option to select Exile's Home as the starting area. Quite possibly with an "are you sure you want this?" confirmation.
No "cheesing" of travel involved in any slightest way - once you are there you have no "fast travel" any more than someone starting in any other area. No, you cannot change your mind and magically teleport to your race's normal starting area.
The issue I perceive is that if nuetral cities exist, then racial cities will be ghost towns. Why start in a racial city with limited PCs when you know the nuetral cities will be teaming with life. You almost force a choice on new players who would like to start in their racial city to choose less interaction over more oppotunity.
Racial starting areas are a big plus. They can be tailored to give a great introduction to the race's story and psychology. For all its flaws WoW did this very well.
Excellent point about cannibalizing the racial starting areas if a "neutral" area is perceived as more active. Which may or may not be the case. Perhaps some negatives should be built in. Fewer amenities. Greater distance from mobs other than the basic level 1 mobs.
I am not certain this is a real issue though. Some races will be far more popular than others; this *always* happens in an MMO. Their starting areas will be ghost towns compared to the more popular races and a neutral area may be the only realistic way for those players to *not* start in a ghost town. Perhaps one can give a one-time option to switch starting areas? Usable only at level 1. Usable only to go to the neutral area. So if my racial start is an empty place I can do whatever there is to do with the NPCs and enjoy the ambiance and then go to a place that has more players.
