Are we really just going to gloss over the largest bean of last nights stream? (sorry Druids)
Somewhere between the announcment of Roenick's untimely demise, (Just kidding he is only changing roles. Grats David!) and the main body of the stream, Savanja drops a bean. As her first act as newly elected co-host, she decides to drop a bomb on the community she professes to love.
We are reintroducing encumbrance back intot he game she says. Is this really what you wanted to start your Pantheon stream host legacy with? Then Sav and Minus barely elaboborate for an additonal thirty seconds about what should have been the whole stream. No it shouldn't have. It should have never been brought up!
Do not let nostalgia fool you yet again. You may have had a funny anecdote due to encumbrance, but it is an unfun tool. Please reconsider.
As someone who loves tons of bag space due to in game item hoarding I lament the return of encumbrance. I do not wish to make the tough "choice" of leaving something on the ground, even though there's room in my bag for it, simply because I can no longer walk.
I am looking forward to having those multiple loadouts. WIth weapon and armour swaps to go with them. I want to find and hold onto those clickys that will be useful and fun at odd moments. Having that bag labeled and the fridge stuff full with all the food I will need on my journey.
I am not looking forward to having to stop what I am doing to run all the way back to town to dump. Or decide in the middle of a dungeon if I want or should have to leave loot or crafting mats on the ground so we can continue forward. Both of these scenarios can happen while my bags are still not full. This is the type of bag management I do not like.
I do not see any reason for encumbrance. Realism? Pfft! This is a fantasy game with magic and Elves. Realism left a long time ago. Yes. Pantheon is a game where choices matter. I, although, see this as forced choice making. You are forcing me to choose the amount of fun I can carry on my back. Again. Please reconsider.
Disclaimer. I am not really that angry here. This post has plenty of sarcasm and levity through out. But seriously. Boo this man named encumbrance....
Gives more value to stats, buffs and weight reduction bags that can be quested, found or crafted.
I see no issue with an encumbrance mechanic, it's similar to the need for meaningful travel.
For immersion it makes a lot more sense compared to games where I can have 5 entire sets of weapons and armour at any time with no trouble at all, which usually go hand-in-hand with being able to fast travel almost anywhere instantly and have no death mechanics or consequences etc.
Pure convenience and casual game design has spoiled a lot of MMOs for years.
Ezrael said:Gives more value to stats, buffs and weight reduction bags that can be quested, found or crafted.
Agree with these points. There should be an advantage to being a strong ogre, or being shaman who can buff strength. And I'm quite sure that weight reduction bags will be a thing again.
Yes, there will be some struggle in the early game. But that's a part I personally love :)
Ezrael said:Gives more value to stats, buffs and weight reduction bags that can be quested, found or crafted.
Ezrael said:Agree with these points. There should be an advantage to being a strong ogre, or being shaman who can buff strength. And I'm quite sure that weight reduction bags will be a thing again.
I am the encumbrance guy. I also play a lot of TTRPGs. They overlap with this MMO problem.
Why Pantheon needs it: The current death mechanics. Encumbrance forces you to bank. When you lose your body and your items (money) you don't want all of them in one place. This not only reduced the anguish players will have from deaths, it forces players to return to the cities frequently, reinforcing the hubs, the buffs, the social interactions, increasing the value of the unique mount system.
Encumbrance also greatly buffs trade skills and gives a mechanic to work with and design around. Do you want smaller high weight reduction bags for the really heavy items or massive item count bags or a light weight bag to put tons of light weight consumables in? Variety and differences are a good thing.
Encumbrance gives another stat more meaning. Every stat should have a role to play in the world outside of combat. Stat distributions should feel different. A super high int wizard, a super high dex ranger, and a super high str plate warrior should do tons of normal events differently based on those stats. The crouch walking to lower agro radius may play off dex while spotting hidden creatures could play off wisdom, the STR for carry weight, cha for NPC interactions, int for learning skills faster.
Encumbrance helps keep PCs from simply carrying every item everywhere, "just in case" I despise the games that allow players to drag 10 items around 24/7 just for the one off chance you need the climbing gear, glider, scuba gear, and and a mountain of various harvesting tools and a backup weapon. Why carry your climbing gear into the desert when you don't plan on climbing anything? Will you harvest every ore node you see to sell later on, knowing it is very heavy?
Consumables can have a cost outside of gold with encumbrance in play. The rich can't simply drink a potion every 30 seconds if they can't carry the potions for hours of gameplay. VR can have cheap items like placable torches but the cost is not just a gold then leaving a hundred stacked in your bag for months of use. The cost is throwing them out because they weigh a ton and you want to carry more loot.
Limiting the PC active kit is a good thing. Sacrifice is a good thing. It is the core of why LAS is great. Someone set up to go mining should be far better at it than random passerbys. The right bags, the right gear, the right stats, the right masteries, the time invested in skills.
Jobeson said:I am the encumbrance guy. I also play a lot of TTRPGs. They overlap with this MMO problem.
Why Pantheon needs it: The current death mechanics. Encumbrance forces you to bank. When you lose your body and your items (money) you don't want all of them in one place. This not only reduced the anguish players will have from deaths, it forces players to return to the cities frequently, reinforcing the hubs, the buffs, the social interactions, increasing the value of the unique mount system.
Encumbrance also greatly buffs trade skills and gives a mechanic to work with and design around. Do you want smaller high weight reduction bags for the really heavy items or massive item count bags or a light weight bag to put tons of light weight consumables in? Variety and differences are a good thing.
Encumbrance gives another stat more meaning. Every stat should have a role to play in the world outside of combat. Stat distributions should feel different. A super high int wizard, a super high dex ranger, and a super high str plate warrior should do tons of normal events differently based on those stats. The crouch walking to lower agro radius may play off dex while spotting hidden creatures could play off wisdom, the STR for carry weight, cha for NPC interactions, int for learning skills faster.
Encumbrance helps keep PCs from simply carrying every item everywhere, "just in case" I despise the games that allow players to drag 10 items around 24/7 just for the one off chance you need the climbing gear, glider, scuba gear, and and a mountain of various harvesting tools and a backup weapon. Why carry your climbing gear into the desert when you don't plan on climbing anything? Will you harvest every ore node you see to sell later on, knowing it is very heavy?
Consumables can have a cost outside of gold with encumbrance in play. The rich can't simply drink a potion every 30 seconds if they can't carry the potions for hours of gameplay. VR can have cheap items like placable torches but the cost is not just a gold then leaving a hundred stacked in your bag for months of use. The cost is throwing them out because they weigh a ton and you want to carry more loot.
Limiting the PC active kit is a good thing. Sacrifice is a good thing. It is the core of why LAS is great. Someone set up to go mining should be far better at it than random passerbys. The right bags, the right gear, the right stats, the right masteries, the time invested in skills.
Boo this man! ;-)
Thank you for your reply. You are right. You make a solid argument. Im still gonna stomp my feel and throw a tantrum.
I also play ttrpgs. for the last 25 years now? I also hate encumbrance there also. :P
My last word on the subject though. How many people here who dissagreed with me is hyped for the new Zelda today? Carrying all your weapons and armor and loads of food and shinies in your bottomless bag? JS.
Edit: That was your 777th post Jobeson. Jackpot!
I agree with Xanafel in many ways. But I also want Pantheon to be more than slightly different from current MMOs in an "old school" way and encumbrance is a step in that direction. Good analysis jobeson.
But two things I consider important.
1. Do not go to extremes. Having to return to town after every one or two fights to visit a bank or put items in a box is not fun. A high encumbrance for coins meaning you can either loot money or a possibly magical piece of gear is not fun. The current approach of allowing you to carry dozens of suits of plate armour limited only by number of slots in your bags is truly ridiculous but a "realistic" approach of limiting you to one plate or chain breatplate before you head home is simply poor gameplay in a game where you cannot teleport back and forth routinely. So - moderation in all things even though I concede the realism of a more ...draconian approach.
2. Do not go to extremes in benefitting certain races or classes over others. A marginal benefit to being an ogre - sure, makes sense. A marginal benefit to being a class that relies on strength and has a lot of it - sure, makes sense. If a finger-wriggler of a small race can carry 10% less than the ogre tank even if she adds just as much value to the group - a bit unfair but makes sense. But if she can barely move under the weight of 5 gold pieces after the first fight a group has - nope, bad idea.
"Limiting the PC active kit is a good thing. Sacrifice is a good thing. It is the core of why LAS is great. Someone set up to go mining should be far better at it than random passerbys. The right bags, the right gear, the right stats, the right masteries, the time invested in skills."
So, how does this work then? I want to mine, I use a mining pic, are my weapons too heavy to carry out into the field. Will I need body guards? Too many "meaningful decisions" might make one to decide that the play time is not really worth it. Will the sacrifice of my time become more hassle than fun?
Jusk asking.
I like the tantrum, it's done in a fun way.
I'll just add, as a person with the opposite problem, I am super glad they are sticking with the idea that inventory choices matter. I've played some games with unlimitted inventory that I have gotten really annoyed with because it makes me feel like I have to loot anything and everything I see, even if I don't know if it's got an value. The "might as well pick it up" mentality takes over. I really do like that making a choice on whether or not it's worthwhile to pick something up is back.
Brutenga said:I just wanted to note, it was said coins will not weigh anything.
Yup, a decisiosn that was sad to me, but I'm over it...concessions must be made :) lol
How frequent is frequent? I remember making choices to either go back to town to sell, or drop some heavy items that I decided weren't worth it, or paying someone to go sell all my stuff for me. We all have limited play time; I definitely agree that it's important to choose how you want to spend that time. I don't necessarily think the game should be designed to remove the need to make these important decisions.
Savanja drops a bean. As her first act as newly elected co-host, she decides to drop a bomb on the community she professes to love.We are reintroducing encumbrance back into the game she says. Is this really what you wanted to start your Pantheon stream host legacy with? Then Sav and Minus barely elaboborate for an additonal thirty seconds about what should have been the whole stream.
Unless I missed something completely, there was never a time when there was NOT going to be encumbrance in the game. They just hadn't implemented this within the Pre-Alpha builds yet, since they have been focused on other things. I do not remember them actually coming out and saying "We changed our minds and don't want encumbrance anymore".
This is why they didn't make a big deal about it; Savanja was mearly pointing out that the encumbrance system was being enabled for the next Pre-Alpha and would be part of the testing. It wasn't as if this was a new idea they were adding to the game and had never been brought up before.
Coins on the other hand they have gone back and forth several times on if it will or will not contribute to encumbrance.
GoofyWarriorGuy said:Savanja drops a bean. As her first act as newly elected co-host, she decides to drop a bomb on the community she professes to love.We are reintroducing encumbrance back into the game she says. Is this really what you wanted to start your Pantheon stream host legacy with? Then Sav and Minus barely elaboborate for an additonal thirty seconds about what should have been the whole stream.
Unless I missed something completely, there was never a time when there was NOT going to be encumbrance in the game. They just hadn't implemented this within the Pre-Alpha builds yet, since they have been focused on other things. I do not remember them actually coming out and saying "We changed our minds and don't want encumbrance anymore".
This is why they didn't make a big deal about it; Savanja was mearly pointing out that the encumbrance system was being enabled for the next Pre-Alpha and would be part of the testing. It wasn't as if this was a new idea they were adding to the game and had never been brought up before.
Coins on the other hand they have gone back and forth several times on if it will or will not contribute to encumbrance.
Like I said, I wasnt that mad about it. This was the part that was dripping with facetious overtones.
whether its in or not I only wanted to express my disdain for the mechanic. It really isnt a deal breaker.
Inselberg said:
"Limiting the PC active kit is a good thing. Sacrifice is a good thing. It is the core of why LAS is great. Someone set up to go mining should be far better at it than random passerbys. The right bags, the right gear, the right stats, the right masteries, the time invested in skills."
So, how does this work then? I want to mine, I use a mining pic, are my weapons too heavy to carry out into the field. Will I need body guards? Too many "meaningful decisions" might make one to decide that the play time is not really worth it. Will the sacrifice of my time become more hassle than fun?
Jusk asking.
Its not even built yet, we won't know how it works for quite a while.
I hope there are places in the game you would need body guards to mine just how you need guards to craft in some magical sites.
I would prefer the game had enough freedom to let someone be a miner if they wanted to be a miner, as in full time. Sadly, I don't think they are that committed to the side grade armor. VR is following the standard combat focused MMO formula, so even if they force you to dip your toe into the water of specialization and sidegrade gear you can be pretty certain you will never be a hyper focused PC, but a combat PC with a hobby.
Xanafel said:dorotea said:However, having pretended to be upset, you will now be encumbered by that reputation forever.
Xanafel, First of his name, Stone around his neck, His bags not full.
I honestly thought you were serious but cheeky. Now we can all really boo this man. I hope the world remembers and only pays you in copper.
redman323 said: The classes seem to all have different stats requirements depending on spells you use. Doesn't the wizard have str tied to a fire ball line spell? So would the cloth class wizard with a high str build now actually be able to carry more than the plate because his equipment is lighter?
Aye (though I wouldn\t use word "requirements" - different abilities benefit from having points put in different attributes) - as the person who primarly plays caster classes that always were penalised with lowest carry weight due to str being a dump stat (which probably played a major part in my current disdain in limiting number of things you can carry) I'm very happy that simply playing a different class won't gimp us in that regard - only equipment will which is by all means valid.
GoofyWarriorGuy said:Savanja drops a bean. As her first act as newly elected co-host, she decides to drop a bomb on the community she professes to love.We are reintroducing encumbrance back into the game she says. Is this really what you wanted to start your Pantheon stream host legacy with? Then Sav and Minus barely elaboborate for an additonal thirty seconds about what should have been the whole stream.
Unless I missed something completely, there was never a time when there was NOT going to be encumbrance in the game. They just hadn't implemented this within the Pre-Alpha builds yet, since they have been focused on other things. I do not remember them actually coming out and saying "We changed our minds and don't want encumbrance anymore".
This is why they didn't make a big deal about it; Savanja was mearly pointing out that the encumbrance system was being enabled for the next Pre-Alpha and would be part of the testing. It wasn't as if this was a new idea they were adding to the game and had never been brought up before.
Coins on the other hand they have gone back and forth several times on if it will or will not contribute to encumbrance.
Ah I did not know this. I'd be happy enough if coins didn't weigh anything. I am curious to see how they'll implement bag stats. I wonder if they could add other non-combat stats to bags on top of weight reduction like points in crafting/harvesting or even resistances (which is grey area as far as non-combat but gimme stats! :D). My hope is that the design will make encumbrance feel present, but not feel oppressive.
Zorkon said: Sorry to hear your so against encumbrance OP. Personally I expect, if not insist on it. Brad’s desire was to “create worlds, not games” and I consider encumbrance as part of a world. Anything less and I’ll feel VR hasn’t stayed true to Brads dream or the game I’m looking for. The need to drop things on the ground never bothered me, it was part of the world, finding random things others had dropped, be it a bag of coins, or a weapon or armor that had been replaced is dynamic content I want to see back. The only let down I heard is the encumbrance didn’t include coin. I really hope they reconsider that before launch. Dropping coin is not a big deal, I’m pretty sure anybody with any sense is going to drop copper, and by EQ standard a copper is 0.000001% of a platinum (if I did my math right) so who really cares? Now on the idea of “worlds not games” I’ve been holding my tongue on that Ogre that climbed right THROUGH two other players in the live stream a few weeks ago.