It is about that time again, for a development update! This month, Anthony "Minus" Guidi will be talking with David "Nephele" Beach about the massive progress that has been made with crafting and gathering. Find out what features have already been implemented and what is in store for the near future, this Thursday (March 16th), at 6PM PDT on Twitch.
Well I was hoping for an in depth crafting experience and I have to say that this is showing real promise. Both the crafting element and the interaction with other players element. I am really intrigued by crafting items that can be used in another recipe, nice! I know you were talking about food, but crafting for another profession sounds great to me. I can see an oil being cooked for use in making a leather item which makes make it softer or stronger or warmer. Great!
One query/concern I have; when the node was harvested by two characters, only one got a reward? Is this the direction you are intending or is this just a proof-of-concept thing? I know you are wanting gathering to be a social exercise, but if only one person benefits, then this is going to have the opposite effect. Why share a node if you are not sure you are going to benefit from it? Especially in difficult to reach places. I am hoping that there will be a better way of sharing extracts of nodes.
Other than that, it is looking very promising and I am soooo eager to get my hands on this...
Another great stream. I’m not much of a crafter. I usually pick up a crafting profession and level it about 25%-50%. Once it becomes “way more serious,” I’m out. Gathering, I’ve always done in games because it's an easy way to make some coin.
I love that Pantheon has a UI for battle gear and profession gear. I don’t enjoy swapping around gear. It’s likely to make me more interested in crafting once I win a roll on some leet crafting item. I enjoy the middle to the almost top end of the player experience. I can see myself getting distracted by trying to get a full set of high-end crafting gear. The more distractions that pull me away from getting to max level asap, the better.
It's great that VR is trying to find a way for gathering and crafting to be a fun social experience. That will be a hard process to balance out well, but not impossible.
Mental Note: Savanja added to the ninja looter list! Hahaha.
Thanks to everyone at VR for all your hard work and dedication!
This tells me that if I can get to a node solo (as in a high level Vanguard cave with no mobs and excellent nodes that even a low level could fly to) I will solo it to assure that I get materials not merely a chance to roll for them. That cave was patched after a while to add mobs but it was quite handy for a long time.
dorotea said:This tells me that if I can get to a node solo ... I will solo it to assure that I get materials not merely a chance to roll for them.
I think we'll have plenty of choices in such a situation. Since Sav said "Standard loot rules will apply" I assume you could set the loot rules for yourself as master looter. You could ask friends/guildies to come help and be open that you want all the materials. Or you could offer to share standard mats but be clear you want to keep any dusts or other rares. Or you could even offer to pay or trade something else for the service of helping you harvest. And as master looter, you wouldn't have to worry about someone being tempted to ninja some big haul. Unless it was Savanja with her 'Dev Powers'!! :)
All true jothany.
Whether to have everyone in a group get materials from a node where group harvesting is allowed or to have it treated like a combat drop and have it rolled for is a question I have never really pondered. Few games have allowed group harvesting. Vanguard did but I do not recall having to roll on "drops" from a node.
Standard group loot rules have the advantage that they reduce the flood of materials into the economy. The disadvantage is that it discourages grouping in areas where a group is not required to get to the node - unless a group gets a significantly bigger haul from a node than a solo harvester would get - as in Vanguard.
On balance I think the advantages outweigh the disadvantages and this is the right call. Especially since Pantheon is *far* more likely than Vanguard to have a limited number of nodes that can be gotten to solo so no matter how greedy I am for a 100% guaranteed haul from each node I will likely group anyway.
Even though this is a meant to be a group activity as is fighting a mob, there is a fundamental difference. When taking down a mob, even if you don't get loot, you still get xp. Everyone gains from the activity. This (I presume) will not apply to gathering nodes. Yes your skill goes up, but so what? If you spend 5 mins thunking down on a mining node only to get nothing then is just a major time sink. It will make gathering a far less inviting thing to do in a group.
I feel the basic items from a node should be given to all in the group who participate in taking down the node. Rares, fine, roll away! I like the idea of group gathering, but taking into consideration the time expended on this activity, then there has to be a return other than a 1 in 6 chance of getting anything at all.
Solo a node = 100% return rate of basic and all rares dropped.
Group a node = 1 in 6 chance of anything at all.
If the drop rate is the same for 1, 2 or 6 players taking part, then it will become a solo activity just to make sure that you get the raw mats to be able to advance the crafting side of things.
dorotea said: Few games have allowed group harvesting. Vanguard did but I do not recall having to roll on "drops" from a node.
My memory could be off, but I believe that in all group harvesting I did, we all got a split automatically. I have no idea if there were alternative systems available or not.
chenzeme said: If you spend 5 mins thunking down on a mining node only to get nothing then is just a major time sink. It will make gathering a far less inviting thing to do in a group.
People play Pantheon for a variety of reasons.
I have spent countless hours in real life doing things with or for others that never earned me a penny. I did it because an afternoon spent with friends talking, laughing and having a good time was vastly more rewarding to me than mere money. That's why I will play Pantheon. Any XP, loot or crafting mats I might get on top of that is icing on the cake.
chenzeme said: If you spend 5 mins thunking down on a mining node only to get nothing then is just a major time sink. It will make gathering a far less inviting thing to do in a group.
People play Pantheon for a variety of reasons.
I have spent countless hours in real life doing things with or for others that never earned me a penny. I did it because an afternoon spent with friends talking, laughing and having a good time was vastly more rewarding to me than mere money. That's why I will play Pantheon. Any XP, loot or crafting mats I might get on top of that is icing on the cake.
And I agree. grouping is better than solo for a number of reasons, however if your aim is to improve your crafting skills and you need mats, then group gathering does not make much sense from a chance point of view. Solo gathering doesnt preclude you from chatting and having a good time with friends.
But my main point is whether it is worth grouping to gather materials. If it takes 5 mins to take down a node in a group (hypothetically), then in an hour, the most you can hope for is twelve basic mats plus the odd rare if you are lucky. You have six people in your group, then the most you can realistically hope for is 2 raw ingredients and maybe a rare, but not necessarily, you may end up with nothing. If you can solo 2 nodes in that time, then you are guaranteed two basic mats, plus any rare that drops. Much better odds. If your current goal is to up crafting skills then I am much more likely to do the nodes solo and ensure the raw mats than do it in a group and take a chance of nothing.
I know we dont know how long it will take, but the principal is sound. If you want to build your crafting skills, then you are going to need mats and (imo) you will likely do this solo to ensure that you get some which is the exact opposite of what is wanted here. For crafters to want to group gather, then there has to be a benefit doing so. Group gathering has to offer a greater drop rate or significantly be quicker to destroy nodes otherwise solo gathering will be the norm. For mobs, everyone gets xp regardless of loot; there is progress for all. Gathering is not the same. Except for the hard-to-reach areas, from what I have seen, solo gathering is the likely route for crafters.
Before people take this the wrong way, I am not advocating solo gathering. I am saying for crafters that want to progress, then group gathering has to provide something (above chat) that solo gathering doesnt. Quicker destruction, more items, better quality of items, all of the above. For a crafter, spending an hour and getting nothing in a group, over spending an hour and guaranteeing a return, its a no brainer if the odds are the same.
It is simple, whichever option provides the most benefit, that will be the route chosen by crafters. If grouping provides something more than soloing, then it will be the norm. If not, soloing will be.
I agree with almost all that Chenzeme says - but one important thing to add is the consideration of adventure levels. Doing things at-level the primary constraint is likely to be whether we can get to nodes solo. If we cannot - or if doing so is very dangerous or time-consuming - grouping will be the way to go regardless of whether the game gives an incentive for grouping. As it should.
But now fast forward a few months - or longer. In any area but the very highest some people will have maximum level harvesters that can get to nodes more easily than at-level groups. If I want materials in a level 30 area and have a level 50 character I will not group without a very good reason. I will just run or ride to the materials and take them. Depending, in part, on how the game handles level differences from mobs. Certainly if much lower level mobs do not attack at all this will be faster and easier than being in a group having to fight them all. Or if their aggro range is small enough I can avoid almost all of them.
Indeed - and this is not necessarily a good thing - a dedicated harvester (and I am such in most MMOs I have played) can make a very good living speed-leveling to maximum level and then harvesting his or her butt off until others catch up. Much as I enjoy playing around - slowly - at low levels I just may do that if it is possible (it will not be possible if there is no way to gain significant xp solo and there are few or no other people at one's level to group with).
chenzeme said:If it takes 5 mins to take down a node in a group (hypothetically), then in an hour, the most you can hope for is twelve basic mats plus the odd rare if you are lucky. You have six people in your group, then the most you can realistically hope for is 2 raw ingredients and maybe a rare, but not necessarily, you may end up with nothing. If you can solo 2 nodes in that time, then you are guaranteed two basic mats, plus any rare that drops. Much better odds. If your current goal is to up crafting skills then I am much more likely to do the nodes solo and ensure the raw mats than do it in a group and take a chance of nothing.
I know we dont know how long it will take, but the principal is sound.
I don't know how long it will take either, but the principle you are using - making up numbers to support your argument - is NOT sound. For instance: If it takes 6 minutes to take down a node solo, but only 1 minute to take it down with a group of six, then whatever return nodes gives will result in exactly the same number of mats in your bag than if you harvested solo. With the added benefit of being much safer AND having more fun.
I don't advocate that everyone harvest in groups all the time. I don't really care how anyone else harvests. Do whatever you like. I just don't accept spurious arguments using completely made up numbers to sound authoritative.
Yeah, you miss the crux of what I was saying, Jothany. The amount of time is immaterial. It was an example only. I even say that we don't know the times involved! The crux of my post is this; if there is no noticeable benefit to group gathering over solo, then crafters will solo nodes to ensure they get the mats to progress. The time taken is not important. The amount returned via grouped and solo gathering is. If all is equal then solo gathering will be the norm. To make group gathering the norm, then it has to be better for everyone to do so.
Jothany then whatever return nodes gives will result in exactly the same number of mats in your bag than if you harvested solo
Yeah, that was my point. The returns are the same. But in a group you are not guaranteed a return, unless the looting is a fair share for all and not random. If it is random, then you are not guaranteed anything at all. Therefore, in this situation, soloing is better. All I am saying is that unless people are guaranteed a return from gathering then it will become a solo activity.
Oh, and to say that soloing isnt as fun as grouping is pretty spurious argument in itself. It is all in the eye of the beholder. Some get as much fun from solo as they do from group. It is a personal thing. But lets not go down that route, again!
"All I am saying is that unless people are guaranteed a return from gathering then it will become a solo activity."
Perhaps - and perhaps not. If it takes a group to get to a node or to fight off enemies guarding the node, people will group. If there is a reward for grouping (better yield or better chance for a rare yield) people will group.
In a way - none of these factors even matter. There will be people - perhaps many people - that will view harvesting and crafting as something to do on days when they cannot group, because they don't have a sufficient block of time or expect too many interruptions. So they will always harvest solo and whatever they get - they get.