Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Very Epic quests

    • 72 posts
    February 1, 2023 12:08 AM PST

    I love working the quests that take you literally 6+ months to finish, either because there are long series of steps to do or went across expansions, which would not work in Pantheon, but could be worked in with level based progression so you could not finish it all fast.   I felt a great sense of accomplishment and the ones I enjoyed the most were not ones that had progression blocks where you needed a full raid to complete, they were the ones that you could do mostly solo or with a small group to really savory the journey.

    Epics for weapons largely could be done fast so not so epic anymore in EQ,  I am looking forward to some very well thought out and fun marathon quests in Pantheon.

    • 1273 posts
    February 1, 2023 8:44 AM PST

    Same!!  I hope they do all kinds (not just solo, not just raid, not just [fill in the blank]).  Quests with parts you can do solo, parts that require friends, ... all kinds!  That way I have plenty of options, I can choose which I want to try to do and which I don't, and often not even know the difference because it won't be obvious until I try whatever the next thing seems to be.

    • 793 posts
    February 1, 2023 9:03 AM PST

    I just hope quests are randomized some. To mean any 2 people on the quest may need different items from different mobs, even if the randomness is semi random, like 10 possible combos at any given step.

    • 438 posts
    February 1, 2023 9:06 AM PST
    That’s interesting Fulton, would make some perma camping mobs or locations for random spawns less likely to happen.
    • 2419 posts
    February 1, 2023 9:11 AM PST

    Deathwish said:

    I love working the quests that take you literally 6+ months to finish, either because there are long series of steps to do or went across expansions, which would not work in Pantheon, but could be worked in with level based progression so you could not finish it all fast.   I felt a great sense of accomplishment and the ones I enjoyed the most were not ones that had progression blocks where you needed a full raid to complete, they were the ones that you could do mostly solo or with a small group to really savory the journey.

    Epics for weapons largely could be done fast so not so epic anymore in EQ,  I am looking forward to some very well thought out and fun marathon quests in Pantheon.

    When you say "6+ months", how many hours of actually working only on that quest are you thinking represents this timeframe?  6+ months when you're only putting in 1 hour a week towards the quest is quite different than needing to put in 20 hours every week.  You cannot equate real calendar timeframes to in-game timeframes because someone who plays just a few hours a week will, naturally, require more real-world time to complete something than someone who can put in 30+ hours in-game per week.

    If, however, you say "a very epic quest should required >50 in-game hours solely dedicated to advancing in that questto complete it is a much more accurate description of the amount of work needed to complete it.

    • 326 posts
    February 1, 2023 12:27 PM PST

     

    I am of the mind that the long and winding road (replete with a variety of tasks, both large and small) for a class Epic should be part and parcel of the first expansion. The Team has a long row yet to hoe and I would imagine that there are some design docs tucked away in regard to Epic quest lines. Even the Bard and Necro could be unlocked at the end of an involved questline. The more to do in the game the better. A cold trail leading to a rumored super-shiny-thingy-jiggy involving factions, crafting, trading, exploration, kill counts, and so on will keep the intrepid fortune hunters always moving (both forward and back). The mystery of the SSTJ can be carried along as well by perception pings and cozying up to the Lore Keepers. To keep the chase fresh, part of the elusive Epic could and should be useable as they are found or completed to help retain the interest of fun-loving casuals and the sweaty Edge Lords.

    • 72 posts
    February 1, 2023 7:19 PM PST

    Vandraad said:

    Deathwish said:

    I love working the quests that take you literally 6+ months to finish, either because there are long series of steps to do or went across expansions, which would not work in Pantheon, but could be worked in with level based progression so you could not finish it all fast.   I felt a great sense of accomplishment and the ones I enjoyed the most were not ones that had progression blocks where you needed a full raid to complete, they were the ones that you could do mostly solo or with a small group to really savory the journey.

    Epics for weapons largely could be done fast so not so epic anymore in EQ,  I am looking forward to some very well thought out and fun marathon quests in Pantheon.

    When you say "6+ months", how many hours of actually working only on that quest are you thinking represents this timeframe?  6+ months when you're only putting in 1 hour a week towards the quest is quite different than needing to put in 20 hours every week.  You cannot equate real calendar timeframes to in-game timeframes because someone who plays just a few hours a week will, naturally, require more real-world time to complete something than someone who can put in 30+ hours in-game per week.

    If, however, you say "a very epic quest should required >50 in-game hours solely dedicated to advancing in that questto complete it is a much more accurate description of the amount of work needed to complete it.

     

    I think average person puts in 3-4 hours per play session  at least 3-4 times a week but you are getting stuck on the 6+ months and equate that to hours played only.  That is one dimensional thinking as you could get very creative with the quest and have it have some components that are not just hours played, it can be getting a certain level before the next quest step can be done thus making time needed to grind a factor, or maybe a certain time of season or astronomical or physical geological event needs to be witnessed  or a drop or step has to occur during, or rare npc spawns with a 30 day window that you have to interact  to advance steps  or some achievement has to be reached 1st.

    Alot of creativity can be worked in but I certainly would not base it on very casual/minimal gameplay as current games are not geared to cater to that crowd, how could you even group with people and do social content if you only playing for an hour a day, let alone an hour a week?

     

     


    This post was edited by Deathwish at February 1, 2023 7:20 PM PST
    • 393 posts
    February 1, 2023 10:11 PM PST

    Thunderleg said:

     

    I am of the mind that the long and winding road (replete with a variety of tasks, both large and small) for a class Epic should be part and parcel of the first expansion. The Team has a long row yet to hoe and I would imagine that there are some design docs tucked away in regard to Epic quest lines. Even the Bard and Necro could be unlocked at the end of an involved questline. The more to do in the game the better. A cold trail leading to a rumored super-shiny-thingy-jiggy involving factions, crafting, trading, exploration, kill counts, and so on will keep the intrepid fortune hunters always moving (both forward and back). The mystery of the SSTJ can be carried along as well by perception pings and cozying up to the Lore Keepers. To keep the chase fresh, part of the elusive Epic could and should be useable as they are found or completed to help retain the interest of fun-loving casuals and the sweaty Edge Lords.

    Can't say I disagree with any of this!

    • 141 posts
    February 2, 2023 4:52 AM PST

    Hello,

    Also, what I would like to see is an epic quest really epic that would be with you all the way of your growing up.

    Let it be started very early and keep it going with parts that accompagny you all the way to level max.

    And make the object grow along with the quest... Something that is utility very early on and that keeps getting better and better.

    • 72 posts
    February 2, 2023 7:23 AM PST

    Grobobos said:

    Hello,

    Also, what I would like to see is an epic quest really epic that would be with you all the way of your growing up.

    Let it be started very early and keep it going with parts that accompagny you all the way to level max.

    And make the object grow along with the quest... Something that is utility very early on and that keeps getting better and better.

     

    Very cool idea an item that grows with you that you can work on long term.  I know EQ has something on a far smaller scale with the PoP charm but you max that out in about a week's effort in PoP, not sure if there is a quest line after PoP to keep working it.    I always thought they missed the mark with your starter weps or gear that they did not have some kind of long term quest to keep making better. Instead we just delete them after a very short time of play.

    • 2419 posts
    February 2, 2023 7:38 AM PST

    Deathwish said:

    I think average person puts in 3-4 hours per play session  at least 3-4 times a week but you are getting stuck on the 6+ months and equate that to hours played only.  That is one dimensional thinking as you could get very creative with the quest and have it have some components that are not just hours played, it can be getting a certain level before the next quest step can be done thus making time needed to grind a factor, or maybe a certain time of season or astronomical or physical geological event needs to be witnessed  or a drop or step has to occur during, or rare npc spawns with a 30 day window that you have to interact  to advance steps  or some achievement has to be reached 1st.

    Alot of creativity can be worked in but I certainly would not base it on very casual/minimal gameplay as current games are not geared to cater to that crowd, how could you even group with people and do social content if you only playing for an hour a day, let alone an hour a week?

    And yet, all those things you just mentioned have an intrinsic time component.  VR has made mention, hundreds of times, about 'time' being meaningful, that nothing should be quick and easy.  If, as you point out, that there could be a level requirement, that too requires time.  And you cannot equate real calendar time to in-game time yet most people think in terms of calendar and not in-game when they think that something takes too long or takes too little time.  My point is that by measuring by in-game time you set an equal point of reference for everyone.

    • 3852 posts
    February 2, 2023 8:01 AM PST

    Clearly time in-game is the most important thing. Few people would think of a quest as "epic" if it could be done in an hour even if that hour was required to be done in 5 minute chunks over 12 weeks.

    Deathwish - I haven't done a poll but I think that your guess that a typical play session is 3-4 hours is way off. Twenty or even 10 years ago I might not have felt that way but I think today people are far more likely to log in for an hour or two than for longer periods. Newer gamers are more likely to be playing multiple games and doing multiple non-gaming things with availabloe on-line time. But longer-term gamers often have more distractions than we did 10 or 20 years ago or have been corrupted by the current trend of not focusing quite so intently as we used to do on any one thing. You may be right and I may be wrong - probably neither of us has more than an anecdotal feel for this.

    Deathwish again - your thought of having gear that grows with the character makes a lot of sense but can have serious negative repercussions. Done well the positives may outwiegh the negatives but the developers, and we, should never forget the negatives. LOTRO went that route long ago so some of us are very familiar with those negatives. One negative - goodbye to the thrill of getting improved gear for that slot by way of item drops or quest rewards. When I have a legendary sword (that is the LOTRO term) I pretty much sell any sword that I get from a drop or a quest without even looking at it. Another negative - we can end up with endless grinding for very small and intrinsically boring upgrades. A week of effort to get 50 hilt upgrade components that can then be used to change the sword from item level 50 to item level 51 just lacks the ...style .... of spending a week hoping to get a better weapon (LOTRO has us grind for something called traceries not for sword hilt boosts but close enough).

     

     


    This post was edited by dorotea at February 2, 2023 8:02 AM PST
    • 2752 posts
    February 2, 2023 9:25 AM PST

    Personally I would rather not have traditional "epic" weapons/items, I don't want gear that blows everything else out of the water or that I am expected to use for an extremely long period of time. I'd rather "epic" class quests open up traits/spells/abilities/passives if the goal is a forever/long term improvement. If they did go with weapons I'd hope they are best in slot for narrow content and only good but not best outside of that, the classic example being a Paladin weapon might be amazing vs undead & demons but only a quite good but not the best weapon outside of that. 

    • 72 posts
    February 2, 2023 2:47 PM PST

    dorotea said:

    Clearly time in-game is the most important thing. Few people would think of a quest as "epic" if it could be done in an hour even if that hour was required to be done in 5 minute chunks over 12 weeks.

    Deathwish - I haven't done a poll but I think that your guess that a typical play session is 3-4 hours is way off. Twenty or even 10 years ago I might not have felt that way but I think today people are far more likely to log in for an hour or two than for longer periods. Newer gamers are more likely to be playing multiple games and doing multiple non-gaming things with availabloe on-line time. But longer-term gamers often have more distractions than we did 10 or 20 years ago or have been corrupted by the current trend of not focusing quite so intently as we used to do on any one thing. You may be right and I may be wrong - probably neither of us has more than an anecdotal feel for this.

    Deathwish again - your thought of having gear that grows with the character makes a lot of sense but can have serious negative repercussions. Done well the positives may outwiegh the negatives but the developers, and we, should never forget the negatives. LOTRO went that route long ago so some of us are very familiar with those negatives. One negative - goodbye to the thrill of getting improved gear for that slot by way of item drops or quest rewards. When I have a legendary sword (that is the LOTRO term) I pretty much sell any sword that I get from a drop or a quest without even looking at it. Another negative - we can end up with endless grinding for very small and intrinsically boring upgrades. A week of effort to get 50 hilt upgrade components that can then be used to change the sword from item level 50 to item level 51 just lacks the ...style .... of spending a week hoping to get a better weapon (LOTRO has us grind for something called traceries not for sword hilt boosts but close enough).

     

     

     

    I think 3-4 hours a play session is probably conservative on my part and 1-2 hours a week is the very casual side of the scale.  In Everquest alone raids are 4-6 hours 2-3 times a week and that is not including the time people log in to level and quest on their own.    The way Pantheon is being setup I do not think it will be enjoyed as much by people only able to log in a few hours a week.  Even the Devs stream of gameplay when dungeon crawling none of them were even close to being done in less than 2 hours.

    I cannot take credit for for the gear questing that scales in power, that was someone else in this thread but it has no negatives, its just a choice if you want to do it or not if its made available, just like its a choice to do the Archaologist quests or trade skilling in EQ.  Its there for the people that want to put in the time to do it and enjoy their personla achievements.

     

    • 4 posts
    February 2, 2023 5:25 PM PST

    Personally my game play has always been 3-4 hours minimum.  I'm sure many can remember the early years of long 8+ hour raids in EQ to clear the likes of Time and such.  Was long but always came away with a feeling of satisfaction.  Heck if i'm recalling right the final fight in Plane of Growth was a 45 minute fight by itself.  

    I love extensive quests.  The Epic weapons quest in EQ were great, however I would ask that the end results be worth the effort.  Other than the cleric weapon, Epic 1.0 weapons in EQ were not worth getting for most classes even early in the game.  As a Paladin I did not even bother wasting my time to get my Epic 1.0 until it became necessery for 1.5.  Boss drop weapons were simply better.  I would like to see Epic weapons or epic quest gear be some of the top tier gear in the game and make the quest worthwhile. 

    • 150 posts
    February 2, 2023 6:21 PM PST

    EQ's paladin epic was lacking for sure (strangely, even as a lightsource), though that likely had to do with it being the first implemented. Necromancer's was outshined by the soulwell staff from VP. Rogue and enchanter deserved better, but enchanters did have a snake animated in hand for fashion. But the majority of the other epics were significantly better, and more than stat sticks. Bard epic modified singing and encouraged meleeing from the class for its groupwide atk/haste buff, while also allow primary instruments to be swapped in, meaning less juggling of items in and out of bags. Mage epic was actually a spell to summon the orb which had the effect; granted, the resulting elemental should've been more powerful, borrowing abilities from all other elemental pet types. Warrior epic generated reliable aggro and could be combined from two 1hs into one 2hs; bis tanks still use it in Velious on p99. Monk epic remained BiS for hand slot and gave a unique attack animation.

    That said, the sentiment isn't lost. Epics could definitely stand to have more oomf to them. 

    One thing that made epics worth the while were the side rewards, some of which required redoing some/all of the quest over again. Head of the Valiant/Will of Innoruuk, Robe of the Whistling Fists, Black Fur Boots, Guise of the Coercer, etc. In the case of the bard epic, that was the ability to summon a version of Trakanon, affording one's guild the chance at one of his drops. These were really decent boosts to morale for players who didn't see progress on their epic quest for long periods of time. 

    • 438 posts
    February 2, 2023 7:45 PM PST
    MaxEverfrost sorry but the ranger 1.0 was pretty amazing for the slow. Especially when you solo’d for AAs
    • 141 posts
    February 3, 2023 12:17 AM PST

    That's is one of the reasons I would rather recommend an epic to be a utilitity rather than a weapon or other slot item.

    Or a slot item that you would bring out FOR the utility and not necessarily for the stats (meaning also that you would at some point may be trade stats for the utility).

    Making it a utility could also mean that you wouldn't necessatily need an EPIC for each class. You could very well think of an multiclass or even all classes.

     

    • 2419 posts
    February 4, 2023 11:17 AM PST

    I don't think the basis of this discussion is about what the reward should be, just that whatever you get should be commensurate with the amount of effort, the level of difficulty and degree of risk and, importantly, that the amount of in-game time invested be substantial.

    Speaking for myself, I much prefer quest that are long, invovled and have many steps.  Having many steps gives you feelings of accomplishment and marks your progression through the quest.  Some of those steps should be able to be done out-of-order as, I think, completely linear quests are boring.  I know where I'm starting and where I need to end (the reward) so give me some latitude to get there as I see fit. Few quests, I think, should be so linear.

    • 141 posts
    February 7, 2023 1:57 AM PST

    Vandraad said:

    I don't think the basis of this discussion is about what the reward should be, just that whatever you get should be commensurate with the amount of effort, the level of difficulty and degree of risk and, importantly, that the amount of in-game time invested be substantial.

    There is however the question of how the reward is given to you.. at the end of a very long process or a reward that evolves as you progress. And you cannot just forget about the reward because it won't be a must do if it is not a must have.

    • 793 posts
    February 7, 2023 8:48 AM PST

    Grobobos said:

    Vandraad said:

    I don't think the basis of this discussion is about what the reward should be, just that whatever you get should be commensurate with the amount of effort, the level of difficulty and degree of risk and, importantly, that the amount of in-game time invested be substantial.

    There is however the question of how the reward is given to you.. at the end of a very long process or a reward that evolves as you progress. And you cannot just forget about the reward because it won't be a must do if it is not a must have.

     

    I always liked the idea of a progression item. A bunch of mini epics as your character grows, and with each progression the item gets a little better. 

     

    I always liked the EQ class armor quests, even though by the time I completed them there was much better armor easily acquired, but the quests were fun.

     

    • 3 posts
    February 7, 2023 11:41 AM PST

    What would be the reason why an epic quest is not able to be put into pantheon? if this game is like wow , or eq2 its dead on arrival compaired to a version where its more like eq, eq still has expansions and population... what your saying is your setting the game up to fail down the road because you cant think outside the box like eq 1? hmm i mean if thats the reason then i guess no it cant be done with the current person working on them. 

    Epics are called epics BECAUSE the quest is epic, not easy mode here's a path and lets progress with no aim towards end game? where is the logic in this entire post? 

     

    If there is quests like wow , count me out.

    If there is no epic quest that you have to progress threw raid to attain how is it even an epic ? sounds like a wow game

     

    This post is very concerning as it seems to be a lazy casual way of wanting the game.

     

    • 2419 posts
    February 7, 2023 6:01 PM PST

    Grobobos said:

    Vandraad said:

    I don't think the basis of this discussion is about what the reward should be, just that whatever you get should be commensurate with the amount of effort, the level of difficulty and degree of risk and, importantly, that the amount of in-game time invested be substantial.

    There is however the question of how the reward is given to you.. at the end of a very long process or a reward that evolves as you progress. And you cannot just forget about the reward because it won't be a must do if it is not a must have.

    Oh, definitely how you get it is important and should be commensurate with what you have to put into it.  I really liked the Coldain Prayer Shawl and Coldain Ring quests in EQ1 because, at each step, your shawl or ring got slightly better. You could have a quest where components of the quest are usable throughout the quest and then are combined/turned in for a final item too.  Many ways of doing it, really.  I just prefer the longer more involved quests.

    • 72 posts
    February 8, 2023 7:37 AM PST

    Fulton said:

    Grobobos said:

    Vandraad said:

    I don't think the basis of this discussion is about what the reward should be, just that whatever you get should be commensurate with the amount of effort, the level of difficulty and degree of risk and, importantly, that the amount of in-game time invested be substantial.

    There is however the question of how the reward is given to you.. at the end of a very long process or a reward that evolves as you progress. And you cannot just forget about the reward because it won't be a must do if it is not a must have.

    I always liked the idea of a progression item. A bunch of mini epics as your character grows, and with each progression the item gets a little better. 

     

    I always liked the EQ class armor quests, even though by the time I completed them there was much better armor easily acquired, but the quests were fun.

     

     

    Could not agree with this more, an item that you can work on throughout your character life to make it a better utility item is really appealing, especially if it was something that you started with 1st day.  As I mentioned in an earlier post, I have always hated that the starter weapons in EQ were deleted after your 1st hour of play and there was not an option to keep and improve it as an additional option to Epics.  A utility item like a charm or other non weapon would also be a great and interesting item to workon and improve on a progressive scale.  Something personal that you can enjoy working on long term.

     

     


    This post was edited by Deathwish at February 8, 2023 7:39 AM PST
    • 888 posts
    February 9, 2023 4:42 PM PST

    Whatever rewards are given, they need to not be best in class or otherwise so good they become defacto requirements. They can be comparable to best in class, so long as there are other ways to get it.  Not all of us love questing.