Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Loot Rules Rule

    • VR Staff
    • 510 posts
    January 30, 2023 10:43 AM PST

    Let's be honest, a solid portion of the gaming fun is getting the loot.  Whether it be vendor fodder for coin or those delicious drops that will absolutely MAKE your character, loot rules are what determine who gets what.  Which loot rules are an absolute must and which could you do without?  Are loot rules about fairness or flexibility?

    Let us know what you think!


    This post was edited by Savanja at January 30, 2023 10:43 AM PST
    • 2419 posts
    January 30, 2023 10:56 AM PST

    Savanja said:

    Let's be honest, a solid portion of the gaming fun is getting the loot.  Whether it be vendor fodder for coin or those delicious drops that will absolutely MAKE your character, loot rules are what determine who gets what.  Which loot rules are an absolute must and which could you do without?  Are loot rules about fairness or flexibility?

    Let us know what you think!

    If you're talking about in-game rules that a group can set/modify and joining that group automagically constrains you to following those rules then these are the ones I think are needed:

    1.  Free For All.  Whoever loots first, gets.

    2.  Round Robin.  Anyone can loot but loot automatically goes the person next in the list.

    3.  Random 100.  Anyone can open the corpse but all loot automatically goes into a UI window where people can click "yes I want this" and once the timer runs out, the game does /ran 100 for each person who clicked "yes I want this" and gives automatically to the highest roller.

    4.  Need.  Similar to Random 100 but extra check box where those who choose Need get their own /ran 100 and all other loot is just /ran 100.  Note that those who click Need are excluded from the /ran 100.  No double dipping.

    All this said, coin should always auto-split.  Oh, and speaking of coin, if Rogues do get PickPocket and that skill can give them coin then any time a Rogue uses Pickpocket and gets money, they are excluded from coin splits. No double dipping. PickPocket should pull from a separate coin purse so that PickPocket does not reduce the coin available to the group.


    This post was edited by Vandraad at January 30, 2023 10:57 AM PST
    • 8 posts
    January 30, 2023 11:06 AM PST

    I would agree with Vandraad, i beleive these are great options for the player to have within a group and decide together as a group.

    • 234 posts
    January 30, 2023 11:19 AM PST

    Vandraads list plus:

    5. Leader assigned: The leader can pick who gets what - probably best used in raid or boss situations where you want to have that level of control.  The leader can choose free for all or a player in the group/raid for each item dropped. 

    6. Loot Level: a hybrid of the above, where items marked as junk loot by the leader are handed out in whatever fashion, and items above that level are handed out in another fashion.  IE: If it's a rat tail, it could be free for all, and if it's a piece of gear, it could be needed - until everyone has that item that needs it, and then it can subsequently be marked as free for all, round robbin or whatever method you choose.

    - Since pantheon does not employ item levels/qualities - You could implement this as a default option of 'Need', and if everyone chooses 'Greed' on an item, it can go on the 'Round-Robbin' or 'Free for All' list automatically. 

     

    That said, I still think each corpse should be looted.  Take the time to stop and look at things, please; no auto/AE looting.

    Therefore:

    7. If a mob is not looted or a loot option is not completed within a reasonable amount of time, the corpse should unlock to the rest of the world for some period of time until the corpse rots, and the loot is lost.

    - IE: Mob dies but is never looted; it goes on public free for all after some time and then rots if still not looted.

    - IE: Mob dies, and loot is assigned to a player, but it never gets looted; it goes on public free for all after some time and then rots if still not looted.

     

     Also, messages in the chat log should be added to show who opened a corpse and who looted what, with a tooltip for the item that was looted, and if an item rots, also put a message in the chat log, so people know what they missed out on.


    This post was edited by azaya at January 30, 2023 11:33 AM PST
    • 2419 posts
    January 30, 2023 11:31 AM PST

    azaya said:

    Vandraads list plus:

    5. Leader assigned: The leader can pick who gets what - probably best used in raid or boss situations where you want to have that level of control.  The leader can choose free for all or a player in the group/raid for each item dropped.

    Oh, that's a good one.

    • 234 posts
    January 30, 2023 11:42 AM PST

    Oh, I forogt one option:

    8. Master looter: all loot goes to a specific person in the group/raid and can be dealt with manually later as time permits in whatever fashion that group/raid chooses.

    And if we want to go pie in the sky

    9. DKP - raid-only option based on a built-in guild DKP system (another topic) that allows items available to a race/class to be purchased with DKP.

    • 2752 posts
    January 30, 2023 11:52 AM PST

    Fairness should be king and Roll/Pass is the ultimate system in a (mostly) freely tradable item game. 

     

    The idea of "need" is absoluely bonkers in a freely tradable itemization environment, it is all just want but trying to beat other players over the head with the idea immediacy should tip the scales. The game should not determine what one person "needs" (and players shouldn't question it either), if someone says they need something then who is to question that? Whatever they need it for is their business. Were they there in the group putting in the same effort as anyone else to get X drop? Then they should have equal chance to roll on it if it is not no-drop or otherwise bound. 

     

    Edit: In a game like Pantheon where it has been said (if not shown) that many stats will be desired for many classes (for example STR for wizard was mentioned by Joppa at one point or CHA for Warrior/Paladin) and class abilities all scale based on their own stat weights then it shouldn't be something that players have to fight over. If someone says they need something then that should be the end of it. Someone trying to build a set of STR for wizard shouldn't have to lawyer (or even have to explain) why they are rolling for STR items while other melee or tanks are complain about it being "off-spec" or some variation of it. 

     

    Things like NBG heavily change/influence the way the game is played - how groups are formed (who is invited to what camps, don't want to invite competition for rolls when it can be avoided) and what "camps" are worthwhile for what classes. It strongly pushes players of different classes to specific camps so they can gear up. Compared to roll/pass where all camps can hold value for all players and getting a group in any of them is a chance at progress, and no need to specifically block out certain classes/players so they can't roll against you either. 

     

    Edit: It also affects the vibrancy of the player trade economy. The more often items are ending up in random players hands the more items move to player buy/sell/trade and the more need each person has to engage with said market. In zero NBG based MMOs have I felt any desire or need to engage with the player trade economy beyond crafting mats when feeling lazy or the very odd fringe thing. When one can manipulate loot so they can get what they want from certain camps as a "need" it's so easy to ignore the player market and gear oneself. And if one can only roll on things that are direct upgrades: How is one supposed to get loot to sell to buy other things? Deceive players into thinking one doesn't already have a drop so they can loot a second to sell? Pray they find a unicorn group at some camp where no one needs anything? Certainly can't go to any old camp with a reasonable chance to make money. 


    This post was edited by Iksar at January 31, 2023 9:12 AM PST
    • 12 posts
    January 30, 2023 12:05 PM PST

    I agree that NBG, especially with tradable items, is too much for PUGs. In an organized group, you can run your own NBG anyway without a backing in-game system. You could argue the game could make some basic checks based on race, class, and maybe even a hidden item level before determining to allow you to roll on a specific piece of gear, but why restrict someone playing their Cleric the ability to get gear for their Monk?

    Sure, it doesn't feel great when the rich player wins an item that would be a massive upgrade to you, but then you don't feel like you're wasting time in an area that has nothing of value for your characters either if you sell or trade for an item you do want.

    I do think the positives of open loot and rolls do outweigh the negatives, even if there are a few.

    • 888 posts
    January 30, 2023 12:28 PM PST

    Weapons and armor should be worn by the enemy. Not only is this more realistic,  it means that we have to fight harder for better gear since that gear is being used against us.  

    • 1273 posts
    January 31, 2023 1:06 PM PST

    Every single imaginable loot rule should be included as an option.  The moment someone joins a group a popup should appear forcing the group to agree on their desired loot rules.  If they refuse to choose and/or can't agree then the default should be "whoever loots the corpse gets the loot."  

    There are always debates about which system is best, but as long as you leave it up to groups to decide then any of them can be best.  

     

    Note:  I'm not sure I actually like the idea of a popup, I'm sure there is a better way to force players to make a choice, my point is that the choice needs to be made as a group or at a minimum as people join the group they should be informed of what the current loot rules of the group are.  Communication on this matter is key.  

    • 2419 posts
    January 31, 2023 2:04 PM PST

    Counterfleche said:

    Weapons and armor should be worn by the enemy. Not only is this more realistic,  it means that we have to fight harder for better gear since that gear is being used against us.  

    Nearly every NPC would need to be naked as to prevent a flood of gear entering the market.  Even too much of the cheap, early level stuff can adversely affect the overall economy.

    • 234 posts
    February 1, 2023 2:19 AM PST

    I thought this thread was supposed to be about loot rules.  Not how you feel about any particular looting system or what the mobs might be wearing.

    As such, it seems like a list of possible ways to configure looting rules would be in order.

    /shrug

    • 888 posts
    February 1, 2023 11:51 AM PST

    I would like to see an option (either when first looting or which can be applied to inventory items) which designates specified items as low value vendor trash. It would shade the inventory item a color or otherwise visually indicate it's a junk item for sale.  These items would auto-drop if the inventory is full and you try to pick up some non-junk item.  This also helps us remember what the item is, so later on, we know it's junk to sell and not for some other purpose (quest item, recipie component,  etc).

    In fact, I would like a way to categorize items based on various custom categories since using bags for this gets to be a mess, especially when our inventories fill up.

    Vandraad said:

    Counterfleche said:

    Weapons and armor should be worn by the enemy. Not only is this more realistic,  it means that we have to fight harder for better gear since that gear is being used against us.  

    Nearly every NPC would need to be naked as to prevent a flood of gear entering the market.  Even too much of the cheap, early level stuff can adversely affect the overall economy.

    While naked NPCs would certainly set the game apart, I think the solution to your concern is to have the standard items be either unlootable (due to damage and lack of value) or lootable as nigh worthless scrap that's not worth the inventory slot). 

    • 2001 posts
    February 1, 2023 3:17 PM PST

    Counterfleche said:

    I would like to see an option (either when first looting or which can be applied to inventory items) which designates specified items as low value vendor trash. It would shade the inventory item a color or otherwise visually indicate it's a junk item for sale.

    I agree that having a way for a player to organize their inventory is a great QoL function. I just want to point out that asking for VR to make the designation of 'vendor trash', in order to have better loot distribution, has a serious pitfall. It takes away any question on the player's part about WHAT the item may or may not be useful for. No wondering if those 'bee's knuckles' I just looted are a rare harvesting mat for an uber Monk weapon, or.... vendor trash. Figuring out those questions is a significant part of learning the game, at least to me.

    azaya said: I thought this thread was supposed to be about loot rules.  Not how you feel about any particular looting system or what the mobs might be wearing.

    You're absolutely right.

     

    I agree with Ranarius:


    There are always debates about which system is best, but as long as you leave it up to groups to decide then any of them can be best. 

    I believe every widely known, reasonably effective loot system should be included and available as an option.


    This post was edited by Jothany at February 1, 2023 3:24 PM PST
    • 3852 posts
    February 1, 2023 4:02 PM PST

    Many, many threads have discussed this topic over the years in enormous detail. Savanja - it would be well worth taking a look at some of them if you haven't already.

    There are a few entirely distinct issues here depending on whether we are discussing what loot rules should be available for selection by a group or whether we are discussing what the default loot rule should be. Also, as noted above, the viability of Need Before Greed is greatly affected by the question of whether valuable gear drops are tradable. If they are generally not tradable I think there is a strong consensus that NBG makes sense and, in fact, is compelling. If all a cloth armour user can do with a wonderful set of plate armour is to sell it to a merchant for 10 silver pieces it should *always* go to someone that can use it if there is such a class in the group. Assuming for the sake of simplicity it cannot be destroyed to get valuable crafting items.

    What should the default option be if gear is tradable? Pass/roll. I personally prefer NBG but too many people disagree and feel that everyone "needs" money so therefore any class should be entitled to say they "need" an item even though they cannot actually use the item. Something that would have gotten people blacklisted 20 years ago. 

    What is the absolute worst system (or at least in close competition for that dubious honour)? One where anyone can loot anything just by getting to the body fastest. The greediest and most selfish people benefit at the expense of those that actually care about keeping the group alive. So many groups have wiped because a selfish greedy player went after loot instead of fighting, or went in a dangerous direction to loot a body and pulled things that should not have been pulled. Even apart from this - first to the corpse rules are grossly unfair to certain classes. The tank and healer are least likely to be able to loot while the fight is still going on. A ranged DPS is likely to be further from the corpse than a melee class. 

    I refer, of course, to a system where whoever loots the body keeps all items on the body - not to a system where looting a body just triggers a roll for the items.


    This post was edited by dorotea at February 2, 2023 8:05 AM PST
    • 102 posts
    February 2, 2023 7:20 AM PST

    dorotea said:

     

    What is the absolute worst system (or at least in close competition for that dubious honour)? One where anyone can loot anything just by getting to the body fastest. The greediest and most selfish people benefit at the expense of those that actually care about keeping the group alive. So many groups have wiped because a selfish greedy player went after loot instead of fighting, or went in a dangerous direction to loot a body and pulled things that should not have been pulled. Even apart from this - first to the corpse rules are grossly unfair to cetain classes. The tank and healer are least likely to be able to loot while the fight is still going on. A ranged DPS is likely to be further from the corpse than a melee class. 

    I refer, of course, to a system where whoever loots the body keeps all items on the body - not to a system where looting a body just triggers a roll for the items.

     

    I came here to say this much less eloquently. Instead, pounding my fist while stating, "I hate free-for-all looting!"

    • 3852 posts
    February 2, 2023 8:14 AM PST

    "I came here to say this much less eloquently. "

     

    I am sure you would have said it well. I have the advantage of much practice - as Savanja said this is an *important* topic so it comes up fairly often here. My mind has been changed in part - I now think roll/pass is a better default option from the game's point of view than NBG if items are tradable. But I am entirely convinced that free-for-all looting is a plague, an atrocity, an abomination, abhorrant in all ways, awful, terrible, evil, and the bane of all right-thinking gamers everyehere. Plus ...I don't like it.

    • 1273 posts
    February 2, 2023 2:47 PM PST

    dorotea said:But I am entirely convinced that free-for-all looting is a plague, an atrocity, an abomination, abhorrant in all ways, awful, terrible, evil, and the bane of all right-thinking gamers everyehere. Plus ...I don't like it.

     

    I do hope you have the option to not use it...and I hope I have the option to use it.  I do not identify with or experience the things you hate about it, but I understand them.  When I use FFA it's with a group of people that I trust, or want a chance to learn to trust.  For me it's more about building relationships and this is a great way for me to get to know "the real you."  

    • 888 posts
    February 2, 2023 4:04 PM PST

    Jothany said:

    I agree that having a way for a player to organize their inventory is a great QoL function. I just want to point out that asking for VR to make the designation of 'vendor trash', in order to have better loot distribution, has a serious pitfall. It takes away any question on the player's part about WHAT the item may or may not be useful for. No wondering if those 'bee's knuckles' I just looted are a rare harvesting mat for an uber Monk weapon, or.... vendor trash. Figuring out those questions is a significant part of learning the game, at least to me.

    I don't want the game auto-labeling it, but I would like a 'Loot If Space Available' option in addition to a regular 'Loot' option. Using the LISA option would automatically mark it as lower value and if your inventory fills up,  LISA flagged items are auto-dropped to make room for regular loot.


    This post was edited by Counterfleche at February 2, 2023 4:21 PM PST
    • 4 posts
    February 2, 2023 5:42 PM PST

    Brutenga said:

     

    I came here to say this much less eloquently. Instead, pounding my fist while stating, "I hate free-for-all looting!"

     

    I agree with Brutenga, but would like to add context.  If you're the puller or tank you simply do not have opportunity to loot.  Not if your with a well organized group.  As a Paladin tank I was too focused on mob control to loot.  Our group usually had a designated looter and we would roll on any named loot drops later when time permitted.  But when your grouped you are grinding out xp or grinding your way into a dungon to a named boss area.  Crowd control, healers, pullers and tanks are often too busy...at least they were if they wanted to group with us lol.


    This post was edited by MaxEverfrost at February 2, 2023 5:44 PM PST
    • 3852 posts
    February 3, 2023 6:40 AM PST

    Renarius - I agree that there are valid uses for free-for-all looting. One is where people know and trust eachother. Another is where no one cares about the loot (maybe they are all 20 levels higher than the dungeon) and they do not want to be bothered by pop-up roll-for-loot screens.

    I was discussing what the default looting option should be not what looting options should be available for a group to choose and I stand by my opinion that it free-for-all should never be the default option.

    • 1273 posts
    February 3, 2023 8:51 AM PST

    dorotea said:...the default option.

    I would argue, that if at all possible, there is no default.  It's not my job to figure out how to make that happen, I'm not smart enough for that hehe.  But if at all possible, I'd vote for no default.

    (forcing the group to make the choice somehow)

    • 54 posts
    February 3, 2023 1:30 PM PST

    I really don't like loot windows popping up all the time in a group.  It's really distracting from playing the game, focusing on the next pull that's incoming or paying attention to health levels to see if they need to be toppped off, or noticing if buffs are about to expire.  Imagine the puller running out to get another spawn and looking at a loot window deciding if they should need or greed.  If things are moving fast, you have loot windows still up as the next mobs are pulled into camp.

    I really, really don't like it when people are greedy or loot something that is an upgrade to someone else.  I know loot windows are invevitable for good reasons.  I want the option to ignore any loot under a certain level or rarity.  I'd like the option to ignore any loot that is not useable by my class.  if I can set both of those, then the loot window is only popping up when it's something I can use and is level or rarity that I would be interested in.  I'm not saying I'd use this all the time, but there are days I just don't want to be bothered with loot windows constantly popping up.  There are also alt's, where my main already has enough money to provide for my alt and I don't care about loot and dont' want to see any loot windows.

    Ranarius said:

    Note:  I'm not sure I actually like the idea of a popup, I'm sure there is a better way to force players to make a choice, my point is that the choice needs to be made as a group or at a minimum as people join the group they should be informed of what the current loot rules of the group are.  Communication on this matter is key.  

    Maybe the developers can add a line at the top of the group window to show the current group looting that is active.  I hate the idea of a popup on joining a group but I agree that you should know the looting rules if you join a group.

    • 888 posts
    February 4, 2023 9:26 AM PST

    The baseline loot setting should be something that doesn't allow for ninja looting or encourage early loot.  Each character should have, in their settings, an option to set a default loot rule when forming groups. When joining a group, the invite pop-up should indicate the current loot settings.

    There should be an option to allow looting either Anytime or Only Out Of Combat. If Anytime is used, there should be a Pause Looting setting that enables a Pause Looting button to appear on the loot window.  This button can be set to All (everybody can click on it) or Leader (only leader can click on it). If it's clicked, it pauses the looting and closes the loot window. Looting can be re-started by clicking on the corpse again.  This is a compromise to allow the flexibility of Anytime looting while still giving tanks & healers a chance to participate if looting is initiated when they're still too busy.

    Loot rules should not be changeable in combat and loot rule changes should not be applied to already defeated enemies. This is to prevent shenanigans. 

    • 326 posts
    February 4, 2023 5:04 PM PST

     

    What was not said (I think), is whether or not loot can be broken down into crafting reagents. This would perforce color the 'loot rules' if there are any. Since last I heard loot was fully tradeable (save for a smattering of quest/rare drops) then a simple free for all (unless you are stuck with Minus in your group) is the name of the...game. I skimmed most of the above, but someone most likely mentioned personal REPUTATION and CONSEQUENCES working their magic. 

     


    This post was edited by Thunderleg at February 4, 2023 5:05 PM PST