Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

rez stone? ish?

    • 68 posts
    January 19, 2023 5:35 PM PST

    lets say the entire group dies but an FDer, or just the healer(s). will there be a way for any type of group to continue or have to wait for the healer to (if they can) return to the group? kinda like eq2 feather or rez stone etc.  should there be one?  20 years ago i would say no. but today... well i aint got the time for a 1hr coprse run for one person? think i would just find an in zone healer.... any thoughts on this? i know it seems like a selfish choice. but i have 5 kids and a wife.  personally id rather not waste an hour of my time with a CR when its only one person... if the whole group died. i get it, but would you as a community agree with a feather(ish) kinda thing. or a bind point kinda thing? something that makes Crs a little less messy?

    • 77 posts
    January 19, 2023 8:41 PM PST

    They have a near-death feature they have talked about in the July news letter.  Sounds kinda like what you are talking about.    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/newsletter/_2022/july/dev-feature/

     

    • 902 posts
    January 20, 2023 2:15 AM PST

    Personally, I haven't played Pantheon (yet), so I cannot comment on the games actual death implementation and whether I think it is too much or not enough.

    However, in a more general way, I would say that anything that lessens the impact of a death (individual or full wipe) will lessen the jeopardy of the game. Ease of play is one thing, but entering the fray with no loss of game play is quite another too. Yes, I agree that an hour of waiting around would be too much, but so would an instant rez by anyone and everyone if it had little impact on the dead player(s).

    I need to experience it first hand before I can comment on Patheon directly, but the whole point of the penalty is to make players think twice before attempting something. If death doesnt matter, players will just plough in without thinking too much. If there is real jeopardy, then they are much more likely to stop, think and plan before wading in.

    I would also say that this subject has been covered multiple times in other posts.

    • 2419 posts
    January 20, 2023 7:10 AM PST

    Rhelic said:

    lets say the entire group dies but an FDer, or just the healer(s). will there be a way for any type of group to continue or have to wait for the healer to (if they can) return to the group? kinda like eq2 feather or rez stone etc.  should there be one?  20 years ago i would say no. but today... well i aint got the time for a 1hr coprse run for one person? think i would just find an in zone healer.... any thoughts on this? i know it seems like a selfish choice. but i have 5 kids and a wife.  personally id rather not waste an hour of my time with a CR when its only one person... if the whole group died. i get it, but would you as a community agree with a feather(ish) kinda thing. or a bind point kinda thing? something that makes Crs a little less messy?

    No, there shouldn't be one.  A full group wipe is, and should always be, a possibility.  It is the consequence for mistakes, bad decisions, errors, etc and players should just deal with it.  Corpse runs will already be incredibly easy given you respawn with all your worn gear, weapons, spells..just not your bags/inventory.

    • 3852 posts
    January 20, 2023 8:19 AM PST

    One of the underlying themes of the design philosophy is that the game needs to be challenging, and there should be consequences for failure.

    If there is a wipe - you are all dead and the death mechanics should apply without any convenient "do-over" mechanism.

    If one person not the healer dies - the healer presumably has a rez ability. No more is needed.

    If the healer dies, to use a technical term, you are screwed unless the normal mechanics have the healer respawn nearby or a healer not previously in the group is nearby and available to join or to rez your healer. If you don't like it - you should have had an off-healer or other class with the rez ability in the group as well as the healer.  

    The OP posits an item (in EQ2 it was provided to all group members by a spell cast by the healer) that would allow a class with no rez ability to rez the healer. Meaning that only a full wipe would keep the group from getting that do-over. I see the point but I vote "no" on grounds of class balance and making a greater number of classes desirable group members. With no do-over stone or feather the group will seriously consider the benefit of giving a spot to a paladin or shaman or other class that they did not pick for the healer role but that does have a rez ability. With a do-over item such classes will be far less in demand.

     


    This post was edited by dorotea at January 20, 2023 8:21 AM PST
    • 724 posts
    January 20, 2023 8:41 AM PST

    The near death is to be taken seriously in a situation where the loss of a member through time or danger is highly disruptive.

    There was an example of callous and cavalier behavior by Savanja in the developers gaming session last seen.  The monk had taken damage and was in near death, upon being returned to an active state Savanja leaped into battle with vigor to assist in a dicey situation.  That bravery was thwarted by taking a mass of damage and she died.  That event was notable to me as the other members had not taken the situation seriously and had not retreated to regroup and lick their wounds.  (It was a casual showcase event) A cavalier adventurer is to be wanted and rewarded but it is risky.   The state of being near death is the component to allow wiggle room in the event of a catastrophic turn in the engagement.   If you truly loose all your healers to legitimate death then it has to be a learning experience.

       The near death mechanic is the key to the answer you seek. 

    • 724 posts
    January 20, 2023 10:06 AM PST

    See also: https://seforums.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2446/summoned-rez-items

    I still think such an item would be a good thing to have. In my experience what happens too often is that groups break up in the event of a (full or almost) group wipe, especially if several people have to run back long ways. I'd rather have a chance to keep going.

    So a strong vote of "yes" from me :)

    • 1273 posts
    January 20, 2023 1:50 PM PST

    I totaly understand the "I don't have the time for...." argument that many people use these days.  My problem with the argument is that just because we might not have the time for certain things doesn't mean they shouldn't exist for people that do have the time.  Creating a game in specific ways just so that the fans with the least amount of time are able to do what they want when they want is super risky.  

     

    Since numbers are fun I'll just add an example:

    Player A, who has endless time to play, plays 10 hours a day.  Each day player A dies once and has to do a 1 hour corpse run.  Player A is dying once per 10 hours and is spending 10% of his play time on corpse runs.  

    Player B, who has very limited time to play, plays 2 hours per session once a week.  Player B dies once every 5 weeks and spends 1 hour on a corpse run.  Player B is also dying once per 10 hours of play and is spending 10% of his play time on corpse run.  The only difference is that it FEELS LIKE he's spending more time because one of his play sessions is dominated by a corpse run.  

    I guess the point is, having more or less time really should not play a factor in decisions like this.

    Note:  There will be VERY FEW corpse runs that take an hour.  I only used this as the example.  I imagine most corpse runs will be under 10 minutes, and every once in a while there may be an extreme case of 1 hour.  

    • 2752 posts
    January 20, 2023 2:04 PM PST

    Personally I hope to see a means to revive a healer to recover if some of the party survived. Spending 30 minutes or more trying to recover from a healer dying while deep into a dungeon (likely being a death sentence for the party unless they are near a safe spot) sounds awful these days. 


    This post was edited by Iksar at January 20, 2023 2:05 PM PST
    • 1273 posts
    January 20, 2023 2:31 PM PST

    The near death mechanic is going to be amazing for situations where the healer is the person that goes down first.  It should be pretty rare for the healer to completely die if the rest of the group somehow survives.    

    • 2001 posts
    January 20, 2023 5:48 PM PST

    Ranarius said:  It should be pretty rare for the healer to completely die if the rest of the group somehow survives.

    I agree. IMO for the healer to be the only one to die pretty much requires both the tank and the CC to be doing a pretty poor job of filling their roles. Of course no one is good when they start out, but they should at least be competent by the time one gets to exploring deep, challenging dungeons where a wipe will require a serious time cost to recover.

    For this reason and others mentioned above, I don't support a rez stone or similar item.


    This post was edited by Jothany at January 20, 2023 5:50 PM PST
    • 141 posts
    January 21, 2023 12:48 AM PST

    Sort of a medium way out could be something that can rez the healer only... or a spell that allows the healer to go back to his corpse with a strong penalty if you do not want it abused: long refresh timer.

    I understand all the hard-to-the-bone players, but at some point the game needs to remain enjoyable.

    • 72 posts
    January 21, 2023 7:02 AM PST

    I think Wow handles this really well.  Let there be graveyards in every outdoor zone and if you die you can elect to be rezzed with some xp loss, or release and you end up at graveyard in a ghost form with accelerated movement that you can get back to your body without aggroing mobs and a pop up comes up to allow a rez , this is more xp loss.   The challenge should be in the encounter itself and not making long stupid corpse runs to get back- I agree with poster 100%, we are not the 15 years olds anymore that had nothing but time on our hands and I dont want to spend an hour trying to get back to corpse or filling spot of a player that gave up and left group.   Make the encounter challenging but the corpse runs fair but not eye gouging delays.


    This post was edited by Deathwish at January 21, 2023 7:17 AM PST
    • 1399 posts
    January 21, 2023 10:51 AM PST

    To me it sounds like a baseball player wanting a 4th strike. Or a baseball team wanting a 4th out. A football team wanting a 5th down. All because they don't want to go into overtim. all sounds great until your the next player waiting to come to bat, or the next team waiting to go on offense. 

    as for the "I don't have time for an hour corpse run I'm not 15 anymore" this argument has been pretty well debunked in my opinion. Agreed you may not, but there are hundreds of thousands of 15 year olds that do. And generations behind them of 12, 13 year olds. In the EQ era I was in my 30's had 3 kids, we all shared the same account if we didn't have time for the corpse run in "our play time" we did the corpse run the next day. We lived the "brings friends" mantra VR has boasted. We would ask in guild and  group would form, an adventure/quest was at hand. If I was in a group and a guild member put in the call I would find me a replacement and answer the call. it went a long ways to getting my help when needed. It's almost like a social experienc. to me this is what "solutions" like rez stones have cost mmo's

    also, 1 hour corpse runs were rare, only happened if someone forgot to bind, or a low level fell into the hole in panaiel or somethin. think ahead, plan for the worst, and one won't have the Problem. 

    • 54 posts
    January 21, 2023 2:45 PM PST

    If there's going to be a rez stone, I think it has to be a high level item that is hard to acquire.  Something that might only be used on a raid wipe, because it's so hard to get. 

    I think having some things in the game that make it easier to deal with CRs are fine, but a rez stone like the Rhelic described is a bit too much for me.  If you decide to risk going deep into a dungoen, you should make sure you have the time to handle a CR.  If you don't have the time that play session, then stay in a place that easier to CR.  Some decisions in game should have big consequences.  That's the risk/reward that I want to see in an MMO.  Some places are more of a pain in the butt to get into and out of, but if your group can handle it, then you get better rewards.  If you fail doing it,  you pay the price and might have a nasty corpse run, deep in some dungeon.

    Pantheon needs to be challenging to capture the social aspect of EQ, and I see corpse runs as part of that challenge.  It's not always fun or convenient, but that is why EQ succeeded.  It had the right level of challenge where it was fun, but sometimes we needed help to do things, like recover from a CR.  That helped create the community.  If CR's are too easy, you water down part of the game that encourages players to socialize.

    • 2752 posts
    January 23, 2023 3:30 PM PST

    There is a big difference between challenging and punishing, let alone the degree of the punishment for minor mistakes or poor "luck" (other groups/trains/pathing issues/clipping/ambient mob spawns/patrols/dispositions/etc). 

     

    I don't think it should matter who ends up going down in a party, one should not be more punishing than another. If some member(s) of a party survive then I think they should have some means to recover and not have situations where one member (healer) goes down and now the party is completely stuck/scrambling to hide somewhere for however long in hopes some other player(s) can help their healer get back to wherever they might be before they also die.

    The immediate punishment is dealt with the death, the experience and however much time that represents is extracted from those who fell but the party ultimately succeeded in the encounter? Let them recover. They all wiped - the party failed? By all means full corpse run and clearing back down, a full punishment. 

    • 724 posts
    January 23, 2023 10:57 PM PST

    Iksar said:

    There is a big difference between challenging and punishing, let alone the degree of the punishment for minor mistakes or poor "luck" (other groups/trains/pathing issues/clipping/ambient mob spawns/patrols/dispositions/etc). 

     

    I don't think it should matter who ends up going down in a party, one should not be more punishing than another. If some member(s) of a party survive then I think they should have some means to recover and not have situations where one member (healer) goes down and now the party is completely stuck/scrambling to hide somewhere for however long in hopes some other player(s) can help their healer get back to wherever they might be before they also die.

    The immediate punishment is dealt with the death, the experience and however much time that represents is extracted from those who fell but the party ultimately succeeded in the encounter? Let them recover. They all wiped - the party failed? By all means full corpse run and clearing back down, a full punishment. 

    Well said!

    • 2138 posts
    January 24, 2023 6:37 AM PST

    Get gud.

    When do you say that? or at what levels? when does the CR really become a waste of time? I am sure you have been in a situation where the group has unanimously agreed that the wipe was inevitable followed by recounted stories of attempted bravery before the wipe: "I saw you go down so I started off-tanking the add!" and  "I had three locked down but Mez broke on the 4th!" and "I had 1 second left on evac before what seemed like 1000 orcs pummeled me" That kind of wipe is satisfying.

    But what about early on? I think there is a necessary learning curve to fear death and "get gud" to avoid death or a wipe as a player plays while taking the sting out of deaths and CR's in the early game. I have to refer to EQ for the layout of the starting cities, the "outside" with its various level MoB's and the one or two low level dungeons often a zone away. The evolution of play was you learn your char to an extent outside the starting city or inside, depending on quests/tasks, and in that time meet people/socialize. Then when you have gotten confident in that area you group and decide to head over to the other zone or into the dungeon- which you learn quickly is deadly. But, the ensuing corpse run is not terrible- its very close to your starting city, often where you respawn and not a fearsome run because you have learned the area from leveling up and can handle the accidental roamer along the way- even if naked- as a group. Besides the rez benefit is minimal.

    Then I think as you get higher and higher and have more experiences, your safety zones get farther and farther away and the first time you have that agonizing CR where you really have to camp afterwards or perhaps just log out and come back in another day gives the right negative reinforcement to NOT want to do that again or...get gud or stay gud.

    This is around level 15-20 I would say and you get sensitive to what other classes can do. By around 30-40, in PuG's you can determine who matches your play style and who doesn't and can be more discerning and- you can tell who obviously bought their char because they play it like a clown and caused you to wipe 3 times in a dungeon that you went deep in- even with a PuG many times before (/ignore) because they have not learned the nuances of their character from having played it from level 1.

    How distasteful.

    • 1273 posts
    January 25, 2023 9:43 AM PST

    Well said!

    I don't disagree, but don't forget the near death mechanic exists which is already an excellent solution to that problem.  

    • 888 posts
    January 26, 2023 11:21 PM PST

    Ranarius said:

    It should be pretty rare for the healer to completely die if the rest of the group somehow survives.    

    It should,  but it doesn't always work out that way. I wrote https://forums.funcom.com/t/doctor-woefallens-guide-to-teaming-with-a-doc/4351 ages ago when playing AO after experiencing things like dying as the healer only to then see chat be bombarded with "heal!" Too many players don't appreciate healers, especially when the healer is skilled, since they can get away with more aggressive and sloppy play.

    I don't want things to be too easy, but it does really suck being a healer who dies and has to run back to the group when no other member has to hoof it back when they die.  Perhaps some healer-only rez item and, to make it more strategic,  only one groupmate can have it, so the healer needs to be smart in who it's given to.

    • 141 posts
    January 27, 2023 12:51 AM PST

    Counterfleche said:

    I don't want things to be too easy, but it does really suck being a healer who dies and has to run back to the group when no other member has to hoof it back when they die.  Perhaps some healer-only rez item and, to make it more strategic,  only one groupmate can have it, so the healer needs to be smart in who it's given to.

    Why not simply a spell that the healer has... but with a very long refresher. You (or your group) can screw up once... but not twice. And if ther death happened in a unsafe place, there is still the danger of coming back and being banged right away again. So the surviving crew has to be a bit strategic by pulling your corpse to a safe spot (and not wipe in the process).

    • 810 posts
    January 27, 2023 1:06 AM PST

    I like having proper res be rare.  The death mechanics create a wonderful safety net and anything bypassing that safety net should be high difficulty.  We don't need double tapping dispositions in the lvl 10 dungeon. 

     

    The definition of challenging used seems to require every class to be equal which goes against the class designs of Pantheon.  Classes need to have varying degrees of importance to differentiate themselves.  Keeping the healer up is a challenge with multiple solutions from multiple classes, keeping the healer from fully dying once in near death is a new challenge with multiple different solutions from multiple classes.  Finding another group to revive the healer is a possible challenge.  Getting back to the safe zone is a challenge... or its super easy because you have an evac or one of the many other solutions different classes bring.  Challenges are not simply found in combat.  I don't want everyone to have a revive any more than I want everyone to have a CC clicky for pulling. 

     

    If you want to reduce the impact of this challenge then always bring a pally or possibly a necromancer or a summoner.  Hopefully covering this possible failure state opens you up to different challenges from not having different classes in the group.  

    If VR wants to give us anything, give us the ability to pick up the bodies and carry them with us through a teleport or evac or what have you. 


    This post was edited by Jobeson at January 27, 2023 1:12 AM PST
    • 1273 posts
    January 27, 2023 9:19 AM PST

    "If VR wants to give us anything, give us the ability to pick up the bodies and carry them with us through a teleport or evac or what have you. "

     

    That's a fun idea.  I am betting some sort of drag feature will make it into the game, but actually picking up a body and bringing it somewhere would be a cool addition.