Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

The Perfect Playable Class

    • VR Staff
    • 510 posts
    January 16, 2023 12:31 PM PST

    I have a lot of fun on a monk in MMORPGs, but the best class that I ever played was a hybrid battle cleric that could heal and smite like crazy.  If you could design a class, what would that look like for you? How much customization on a class is necessary for a good player experience, and at what point does customization make things too confusing?

     

    Join the discussion and share your thoughts!


    This post was edited by Savanja at January 16, 2023 12:32 PM PST
    • 33 posts
    January 16, 2023 4:46 PM PST

    I have had a few enjoyable classes over the years.  I loved my EQ ranger of course.  And I really enjoyed my WOW hunter during the time period that a full Survival build gave you legitimate raid-enemy CC capabilities.  The traps + damage was something I really enjoyed.  During my time in Neverwinter, one of the characters I played was a Paladin that was specifically designed to provide AoE healing that was directly related to the amount of damage I did.  So he was a decent damage dealer that pumped out really helpful AoE healing that assisted my partner (a full healer class) keep groups alive during the craziest of encounters. (we specifically got group invites due to our ability to keep groups alive).

    Basically, I have always been someone who loves a character that performs a particular task to an acceptable level, while also being able to utilize utility.  I don't need to be the highest damaging class if I also have the ability to lock down a major target, or perhaps offer AoE benefits.  I don't know if I'd call it a "jack of all trades" ability, because its really not.  Its a character that has the ability to perform their primary function well (not best, but well) while also providing a very useful side-benefit.  I love utility.  I love being that player that learns every single in and out of their character, and figuring out exactly what they're capable of.  I know some people just love full wizard, or full tank, or full healer.  I respect that, and it should absolutely be important.  But allowing for those hybrid builds, that's where a good game becomes great.

     

    To give an admittedly long answer to your question, I would play either a damage dealer that can pump out AoE benefits depending on his damage output, or a damage dealer with CC capabilities.

    • 945 posts
    January 16, 2023 5:13 PM PST

    I'm also a fan of a good battle cleric.  In EQ2, I was a big fan of the Inquisitor on a pvp server; all of their heals were actually fast casting "buffs" that healed when the target received damage... the buffs also reflected damage back to the attacker, and the inquisitor could wear heavy armor and wield 2-handed blunt weapons (and the staff animations were pretty nice).  Anyone dual weilding would actually take more damage from my buffs than they could deal, and my heals healed for far more than the damage dealt. 

    My perfect class wouldn't fit into PRotF because I prefer a class that can fulfill at least 2 roles.

    As for customization, I feel that the appearance of one's avatar is essential to a player's identity in the game world.  I feel that a player should be able to customize their appearance as much as they like as long as it stays within the boundaries of the game world (including their race/class restrictions and limitations).

    • 326 posts
    January 16, 2023 6:07 PM PST

     

    I miss the ability to control an engagement. With my old EQ Bard I could split, pull, and park several mobs at once, with FD if things went south. I would then buff/debuff, and do some pathetic melee DPS all while keeping everything racked and stacked.

    Needless to say, OG WoW had something similar, and like Eolair I played a hunter with their own suite of tools. Current WoW is generally a zerg fest with little finesse beyond interrupts and maybe a slow or knockback. Don't get me started on the impersonal instancing and almost complete lack of questing camaraderie. 

    Anyway...Finesse. That is what I want from a class and with the LAS I hope to "utilize utility", the more choices the merrier.

     

     

     

     

    • 438 posts
    January 16, 2023 6:26 PM PST
    My all time favorite was the EQ1 ranger. Freaking loved it. Wasn’t the best at anything but was damn fun.
    • 185 posts
    January 16, 2023 7:01 PM PST
    To your point about customization. I think its 100% imperative that an Alternate Advancement system of some kind be in place.
    I recall EQOA having a particularly robust and well thought out system.
    Without any AA system, every class becomes cookie-cutter and without any real way to personalize yourself/your character.
    Im not talking about a WoW style “build” system where you can reset it whenever you want btw. Im talking real AA customization where you retain the same core abilities/roles as the rest of your class, but are still able to make yourself unique to a meaningful degree.
    • 724 posts
    January 17, 2023 2:09 AM PST

    I really loved my magician in EQ. However I always thought the class needed at least basic CC abilities, even a simple root would have made things a lot easier. Yeah the earth pet had that, but since it was not user-controllable, it was too unreliable (also usually broke very quickly). Otherwise, the class was very near perfect for me in terms of self-reliance and power. In a later phase I played the enchanter on a TLP server. Absolutely loved that class too, especially the almost limitless possibilities of moving around and going wherever I wanted.

    Not sure what you mean with customization, like talent trees? I'm not much of a fan of these, because too often FOTM builds pop up quickly and, unless easy resetting is possible, everyone is "encouraged" to use those.

    I have some hope for Pantheons ability mastery though. After all, everyone gets the same abilities, and you can tune these to how you play the game. This seems a nice approach and I'm very much looking forward to trying this out!

    • 2756 posts
    January 17, 2023 5:19 AM PST

    In some ways I really enjoyed the very tweakable multiple skill tree based classes in Rift.

    You had up to 3 classes combined and each class you could tailor with something like 50 individual tree nodes with each having several levels of point assignment. You could respec often (by visiting the main city). You could basically have almost any archetype perform almost any role: Healing mages, tanking rogues, etc.

    The problem with that is it was almost tediously complex to master, easy to gimp yourself and very hard to balance such that a 'well designed' character was way more powerful than a badly designed or even the average character. Of course the same balancing issues effected the challenge of the game. There were a few metas that became very popular. Grouping often felt like just adding more soloers rather than building interesting and meaningful teams.

    After playing many MMORPGs with many different methods and degrees of character customisation, I think the best way for a challenging, group-focused, social game is the way VR have gone: Distinct, interdependent classes performing meaningful roles.

    There is still scope for tailoring your LAS and mastery and stretching your role as necessary for different group combos, but generally, balance is better, grouping is more meaningful and interaction more rewarding when roles and classes are solid and distinct.

    There are a ton of MMORPGs out there where high levels of customisation are fine, but for the reasons above, I would caution the tempting thought that more customisation is always a good thing.

    Having said that, I also think the concept of a 'battle cleric' is good. This wouldn't mean they can 'tank', it would just means they are designed such that being in the melee is 'a thing'. For example, I like the idea that regaining mana doesn't have to mean 'sitting down'. For a cleric, they could yell hymns while they bash with their mace to regain mana. What better way to recharge holy power? But, sure, meditating could be an option too, if getting into a particular melee is too dangerous.

    I guess I prefer choices within the class/role, even if they amount to just 'flavour' or 'style' rather than customisation that significantly changes the class in a per build way.

    • 945 posts
    January 17, 2023 5:38 AM PST

    disposalist said:

    In some ways I really enjoyed the very tweakable multiple skill tree based classes in Rift.

    I forgot about this.  This was absolutely amazing.  I also enjoyed FFIV's multiclass system that allowed you to blend skills from classes within the same role to enhance and personalize your character.

    • 326 posts
    January 17, 2023 6:13 AM PST

     

    "I like the idea that regaining mana doesn't have to mean 'sitting down" ~disposalist

    I am concerned that sitting for mana will turn many people away. Sure it is suitable for chatting among groupmates, but voice comms handle that just fine while everyone is doing their job.

    Trying Asheron's Call back in the day after playing EQ and VWoW, the fantastic rate of personal resource regen was a blessing. Managing mana and whatnot via smart gameplay and skill interaction is far and away a better way to play.

    • 2756 posts
    January 17, 2023 6:33 AM PST

    Thunderleg said:

    "I like the idea that regaining mana doesn't have to mean 'sitting down" ~disposalist

    I am concerned that sitting for mana will turn many people away. Sure it is suitable for chatting among groupmates, but voice comms handle that just fine while everyone is doing their job.

    Trying Asheron's Call back in the day after playing EQ and VWoW, the fantastic rate of personal resource regen was a blessing. Managing mana and whatnot via smart gameplay and skill interaction is far and away a better way to play.

    To be clear, I'm not suggesting that resource regain should be fast at all, just that it doesn't need to be so static and boring as sitting down and doing nothing. I would like to see the option of something more active and less boring.

    Yeah, sit down and med and afk or chat between fights, but if you have to 'med' in a fight, have the option of an active, if more risky, activity.

    And you could maybe even 'med' between fights by attacking weak monsters between the tougher pulls.

    As I say: Interesting options rather than 'just sit down and do nothing' would be preferable. But I think we're getting off-topic a bit ;)


    This post was edited by disposalist at January 17, 2023 6:33 AM PST
    • 724 posts
    January 17, 2023 6:42 AM PST

    For me the perfect class allows some flexibility.  I want to be able to modify my class , within reason, to fit a need.  I will be playing a Ranger so I can assist and be a jack of all-master of none.  Gear would be nice to use so anyone can be able to modify the build for a role. 

    • 3852 posts
    January 17, 2023 9:22 AM PST

    For me the perfect class is a hybrid. One that is *not* the best tank or the best healer or best damage dealer. I will have some pure classes that can fill those roles quite well but I will find the game much less flexible if I cannot have a class that can do damage well enough to solo nicely while also having enough healing or defense or "oh crap" abilities like feign death or evac to not die very often. Ideally my character tasked with exploring the world and doing things on her own will also have some run speed buff or other transportation ability. 

    The shaman from Vanguard comes to mind.

    Of course I know that Pantheon will be group-focused but it will be ideal if on days when I do not feel like grouping or cannot group I can still profitably log on and run a character solo - adventuring not just sitting in a crathall (though I will assuredly do a lot of crafting).

    • 141 posts
    January 17, 2023 10:23 AM PST

    Isn't Pantheon already on the path of designing hybrid classes?

    I have almost always played tanks, and more specifically SK in EQ1 and some variations in other MMOs. We'll have three tanks classes that are specifically designed as such (warrior, paladin and Direlord), and probably some of the other classes (right now, monk comes to mind) that can fit that role... So, if these classes have to feel different, they need a secondary role. 

    I could see a dps tank, a healer tank, a buffer tank, a crowd control tank, ...

    The same could be said of other classes...

    • 74 posts
    January 17, 2023 11:08 AM PST

    My ideal class would look a lot like the original EQ bard, without the plate armor and without the "focus" on meleeing. Being a group/raid force multiplier, with a slew of out of combat utility for exploration and travel is what I want. A jack of all trades is a master of none, but still always better than a master of one. My version would lack the more martial aspects of the EQ bard and instead emphasize the more mystical nature of song magic.

    The ability to completely customize what kinds of buffs/debuffs I'm using in every different group situation was so clutch to being the perfect support/crowd control. I couldn't mez as well as an enchanter, couldn't heal/recover resources faster than a dedicated healer, nor could I pull better than a monk/ranger/druid. But I could mez in a pinch, dramatically speed up downtime, and through using lulls and snares, I could get the pulling job done. Might not've been able to pick advanced locks or see/disarm advanced traps, or sneak around quite as well as a rogue, but through invis song and lesser sneak/hide, I could make it work. My buffs and debuffs weren't on the level of most of the dedicated buffers and debuffers, but I could mix and match to target what the group needed at any given time.

    Travel was the one thing I was the best at. With songs for levitate, speed, and invisibility, my options were wide open. I had songs for finding corpses, identifying items, increasing resistances, and giving darkvision! Faction songs and lulls could get me in places I otherwise wouldn't be able to, and charm could get me or a group out of a pinch if we needed to cut and run.

    Aside from travel (ignoring ports), there was always a class out there that could do whatever better, but there was nothing approaching the sheer versatility that a bard could offer an adventuring party. Plus, I just wanna run really fast forever.

    • 2419 posts
    January 17, 2023 2:53 PM PST

    Savanja said:

    If you could design a class, what would that look like for you? How much customization on a class is necessary for a good player experience, and at what point does customization make things too confusing?

    I like a class that makes all the other classes in the group..better.  A force multiplier.  A true support class. This means a focus on buffs and debuffs and, for me, that means an evolution, an iteration, on the EQ1 Shaman.  I want a class that is the embodiment of all aspects related to the body. The Shaman is the physical force multiplier, affecting both positively and negatively the physical nature of players, NPCs and the combat that takes place between them. That means buffs/debuffs for melee attack speed; strength; stamina; agility; dexterity, raw hitpoints, some resists and hitpoint regeneration.  What debuffs and buffs a Shaman should use (they should not have the mana to use all them all the time) should depend upon the immediate situation.  You're fighting that hard hitting Warrior NPC?  Debuff strength and melee attack speed.  Fighting a Monk or  Rogue NPC?  Debuff that agility and dexterity.  Fighting a caster?  debuff those resists.  The point being is that with a broad toolset at their disposal, the Shaman should be thinking which spells are most applicable knowing they cannot cast them all.

    • 2752 posts
    January 17, 2023 3:03 PM PST

    Light plate melee bard/necro hybrid jack of all trades class.

    Getting right up in the thick of things singing/humming/chanting/whistling battle songs that eminate out from the character to debuff foes - draining their essences/stats to buff the player's party. The ability to offer portions of their own health/mana/ to further boost or change the effects. Can also fall back from the front line to pull out instruments to access situational things like charm/mez, empowered damage songs/spells or boost out of combat utility songs/spells. 

    • VR Staff
    • 510 posts
    January 19, 2023 9:25 AM PST

    Darch said:

    I forgot about this.  This was absolutely amazing.  I also enjoyed FFIV's multiclass system that allowed you to blend skills from classes within the same role to enhance and personalize your character.

    FF multiclass was pretty cool. I do love a good hybrid, but it is true that when lines get blurred between classes, covering group roles can be a bit more challenging.

    • 1273 posts
    January 19, 2023 10:04 AM PST

    This is such a difficult question for me haha.  I've thought about it for a few days and I just don't have a great answer.  The perfect class is one that is powerful enough to get a job done, but not so powerful that he can do it all alone.  A class that feels like he is contributing to a group but not so powerful that he is carrying in the group.  With that said, I do like a class that has flexibility, can fill a need in any given moment.  I did enjoy the EQ ranger quite a bit, he had some healing, some cc, some tanking ability, and some damage.  None of them were strong by any definition, but all of them were helpful when they were needed.  

    • 141 posts
    January 19, 2023 11:14 AM PST

    In many games you have true defined roles and innate multiclass roles: Say Tank, Cleric, Wizard, Enchanter... you see immediatly what the core strength of the class is... I still think that they need a second role but may be just to spice it up.

    Then there are typically classes that are often defined as multiclass : shaman (buff, heal), Bards (dps, crwod control), monk (dps, tank, crowd control), ranger (meat, laughing stock), rogue (DPS, stealth spec), ...

     

    • VR Staff
    • 510 posts
    January 19, 2023 4:43 PM PST

    Grobobos said:

    ranger (meat, laughing stock)

    I giggle-snorted.  Well done.

    • 888 posts
    January 21, 2023 6:25 PM PST

    My class ideas:

    1. Shape-shifter which shifts between two to three different forms based on circumstances only partially controllable by the player (like how The Hulk can try to make himself angry but might also just lose control if slapped around too much). The different forms don't have to fill different roles, though secondary role should change as well as playstyle. 
    2. An impersonator class that mimics different classes. You have to level each one up separately so  you can only really have a couple  classes you impersonate.  There is also a base class when not impersonating which has a unique build with lots of mimic / disguise  / stealth / subterfuge  / sabotage themed abilities. Their mimic ability lets them copy any group member, temporarily giving them slightly diminished but otherwise matching stats, LAS bar,  and gear (gear is not a real item and can't be traded or swapped).  Group keeps dying? Impersonate the healer so you have extra heals. Too much aggro? Impersonate the tank or CC.  Impersonators are despised by most cultures and are often have to be in disguise just to go travel through towns or interact with NPCs. 

     

    My favorite classes were both from City of Heroes: 

    1. Controller: I love the mix of crowd control and healing and being responsible for two critical roles.
    2. Warshade: a triform shape-shifter with tank, DPS, and a light debuff/control forms that can be quickly shifted between.  I don't normally like tank or  DPS much, but being able to switch to it ad hoc makes it fun without being stuck always filling that role. I really love being able to prevent a wipe when the tank goes down by suddenly switching roles.
    • 2 posts
    January 22, 2023 1:58 PM PST

    I believe that since Pantheon is being promoted as having a quaternity based class system, there needs to be more options for crowd control and manipulation. The idea of having a class that can weaken the monsters in an encounter and use that power to strengthen the group in many ways would be an interesting dynamic. The class could synergize with varying group compositions and perform several vital functions. A quick example of a class type could be:

    Class Type: Warlock

    Powers: Invocation

    Casting standard spells builds invocation power that is expended on empowered abilities.

    Quaternity Type: Crowd Control/DPS

    Empowered abilities can change the potency of an ability or enable area of effect:

         Shadow Blast damage % increased for each level of invocation spent
         Single target Sleep empowered to AoE Sleep expending invocation power
         Enrage a target to attack offensive target (Similar to Charm without any control during duration)
         Enrage a target to attack defensive target (Similar to taunt/misdirect)

    Warlock uses detrimental effects on enemy targets to empower self. Invocation empowered abilities will have a beneficial effect on defensive target/group:

         Siphon offensive targets stat and empower def target stat
         Siphon offensive targets mana to replenish def target mana
         Reduce attack speed and haste def target attack speed
         Reduce elemental resist and buff def target resist

    Customization is very important imo. Having several layers of progression to improve the overall performance of my character(s) increases the possibility of me spending countless hours improving myself. I have personally enjoyed game systems that allow me to funnel experience directly into desired abilities to make them stronger or more effective over time. Any form of alternate advancement that can change the way a class performs in combat would also be very interesting. 


    This post was edited by Ironstar at January 22, 2023 2:10 PM PST
    • 74 posts
    January 22, 2023 5:02 PM PST

    Ironstar said:

    I believe that since Pantheon is being promoted as having a quaternity based class system, there needs to be more options for crowd control and manipulation. The idea of having a class that can weaken the monsters in an encounter and use that power to strengthen the group in many ways would be an interesting dynamic. The class could synergize with varying group compositions and perform several vital functions. A quick example of a class type could be:

     

    ...

    Enrage a target to attack defensive target (Similar to taunt/misdirect)

    Warlock uses detrimental effects on enemy targets to empower self. Invocation empowered abilities will have a beneficial effect on defensive target/group:

         Siphon offensive targets stat and empower def target stat
         Siphon offensive targets mana to replenish def target mana
         Reduce attack speed and haste def target attack speed
         Reduce elemental resist and buff def target resist

    I absolutely love the idea of this class. Especially the idea of a "taunt" that has the offensive target aggroing your defensive target lol! Ripe for griefing, but also cool if you know, an add pops up or something and aggros the healer.

    • 945 posts
    January 22, 2023 8:16 PM PST

    Most classes I play, I end up finding some way to do something to purposely build outside of the norm in order to prove it can be done successfully.  I hope there is enough customization to where we can do just that.

    What will be a game ender for me, is if the game ends up turning into an "Elitist Jerks" cookie-cutter charade.  (Those guys are still out there)

    I want enough customization to be able to play outside of the mold that some people will inevitably say is "the best way" to play.  I may have the opinion that my way is the best way (even if it isn't), but I don't want to be right (or wrong obviously).  I want people to be able to have choices.  If I have to have more than 4 of the same abilities on my LAS as others within my class to perform decently, that's not enough customization IMO.  I also don't want to have to try to have the same gear - and I ESPECIALLY don't want to "have to" look (if I choose to, that's one thing) identical to ANYONE else in order to be effective.  I also don't want to be forced to have to look like I'm turning into a peacock or a moose (WoW Druid).

    I think if we can rank up different skills to allow them to synergize with other skills, granting the effects of an even different skill, that would be a decent way to allow more customization in LAS.  i.e.  Taunt can evolve to be AoE or deal damage to a single target, while there could be an AoE attack that can evolve to Taunt or have a larger range, but both share the same cooldown if they taunt.  That could allow a tank to use the AoE attack in place of the taunt, but now they have to be concerned about CC - or they could have both taunts on their LAS and use the non-damaging AoE taunt when CC is nearby, but that takes up an additional LAS that would be situational.  IDK - there's just a lot of room for customization that I hope really gets explored and allows for no two players to be anywhere alike unless by extreme coincidence or they plan it.