Mobs interacting with each other can make a world feel alive.
For me, I thought it was the coolest thing the first time I see a wolf chase and kill a squirrel critter. Or having certain mobs fight each other.
One thing I think would be incredibly awesome in a no zone-line game like Pantheon would be having mobs chase you up to certain territory lines of other mobs. For example, maybe a rat is chasing you but as soon as you enter the area of the woods with spiderwebs everywhere and spiders are visible, it'll stop chasing you for fear of the spiders.
Another such example could be a lion chasing you and unless you have a lot of aggro from fighting it, as soon as you come across some hyenas it'll switch to them (or maybe the hyenas aggro the lion over you).
What are some mob behaviors you're hoping to see?
All of the above, and when fighting NPCs I hope one of the dispositions is for a 'tank' mob to 'taunt' a party member making you attack it for X/time. Not new I think, but I still like it.
Also not new, is getting pickpocketed by a stealthed NPC and if your perception is up to par then you get a ping and the search is on for that cloaked mob.
Bandits arguing who is going to do the dishes in their camp which causes them to be in a distracted state.
I entirely agree. Apart from realism - things like this can add a great deal of entertainment even if practical considerations limit the number of areas where VR can toss in detailed NPC conversations and the like.
One example from LOTRO - a quest to get a particular item near two giants. If you take the item you will have to fight them both. If you toss a stone at one of them he will blame the other one and there will be a minute or two of arguing back and forth. Finally one of them attacks the other and you can just grab the quest item while they are busy. Much more memorable than just attacking them.
Or things like Thunderleg's dish washing example. It doesn't even need to affect their alertness or dispositions. Just having the chance to listen in as you scout the camp is well worth it.
I dunno. I look at it as a 'nice to have' thing.
A lot of what is in a game, even a 'virtual world' like an MMORPG aspires to be, is an analog for 'reality' and the player has to fill in the gaps.
When I read a novel and it describes a scene I don't think, when I move onto another scene, that the characters in the previous ones are just suspended. I know there is a 'life' going on for them when I read on to another situation.
In an MMORPG, when I see a 'static' NPC and it gives me a quest, I don't think it has a static life, I imagine it's life based on the quest text, or whatever, I have seen. Yeah, if I saw it interacting and doing stuff that it would do, then that would perhaps help, but is it needed? *shrug*
Maybe it's a symptom of the modern MMORPG quest-text-skipping tendency that leads people to want NPCs to *be* more life-like so they don't have to pause and take in the text and imagine what is going on in that NPCs life?
I'm not saying you're lazy if you want NPCs to be more real, but hopefully you get what I mean.
disposalist - absolutely any fluff like this is nice to have but not critical. The old phrase "willing suspension of disbelief" comes to mind. A static NPC works fine for me. In fact I prefer it to a NPC I need but cannot find because she is off in a basement dusting and shooing the mice away.
Fulton - all Gods witness that I agree. VR *must* take whatever time is needed so that the game it releases is a good game well worth playing. But any fluff that would take time away from that overriding goal should be tossed on the "nice to do later" pile. The perfect is the enemy of the good.
The only reason I don't simply disagree with more "this would be nice" suggestions is that I am well aware that there will be bottlenecks, and people that cannot do anything to help with them that can be spending their time doing other things. Such as fluff. Nice things that move the game from good to great and that do *not* delay launch are self-evidently to be desired.
disposalist said:In an MMORPG, when I see a 'static' NPC and it gives me a quest, I don't think it has a static life, I imagine it's life based on the quest text, or whatever, I have seen. Yeah, if I saw it interacting and doing stuff that it would do, then that would perhaps help, but is it needed? *shrug*
I'm not saying you're lazy if you want NPCs to be more real, but hopefully you get what I mean.
There is a difference between some static figures and a whole village where everybody just stands there... forever. Not like we wouldn't live with it, but does it "feel alive"? Definitively not.
I kinda liked cities likes in Cyberpunk 2077 where there is seemingly life going on... and it does not stand in contradiction with quests.
disposalist said:I dunno. I look at it as a 'nice to have' thing.
A lot of what is in a game, even a 'virtual world' like an MMORPG aspires to be, is an analog for 'reality' and the player has to fill in the gaps.
When I read a novel and it describes a scene I don't think, when I move onto another scene, that the characters in the previous ones are just suspended. I know there is a 'life' going on for them when I read on to another situation.
In an MMORPG, when I see a 'static' NPC and it gives me a quest, I don't think it has a static life, I imagine it's life based on the quest text, or whatever, I have seen. Yeah, if I saw it interacting and doing stuff that it would do, then that would perhaps help, but is it needed? *shrug*
Maybe it's a symptom of the modern MMORPG quest-text-skipping tendency that leads people to want NPCs to *be* more life-like so they don't have to pause and take in the text and imagine what is going on in that NPCs life?
I'm not saying you're lazy if you want NPCs to be more real, but hopefully you get what I mean.
This is definitely a "nice to have" type of thread. I'm enjoying reading people's responses and hope to see many more! The experience of the quests and lore and feeling part of it, and the experience of the environment around you (which mobs and NPC's are a part of) are two different components that have their own merits of importance. A person who doesn't enjoy the questing aspect of MMO's might feel well written and immersive quests are a "nice to have" as well.
I wouldn't be disappointed if most of these things are never even considered by VR. It would be hard to deny they would greatly add to the experience if any are included though. As dorotea pointed out, when you notice these sometimes small and subtle behaviors, it can create very strong and positive memories for the players' first playthrough.
All that to say, thank you for sharing your thoughts Disposalist. I enjoy reading them and would still love hear what mob or NPC behaviors you'd be excited to see even if they're more fluff or unncecessary for you.
PS.
I love how in my head I was thinking of a lot of mob vs mob interactions and yet we're getting a lot of NPC interactions listed. So many good and diverse ideas in this community!
I really like thinking about how guards should actually work in a place like a city or fortress. Instead of just static guards everywhere, there should be a process that happens with guards, that geing patrols. A squad leader, a named NPC, would take a squad on a patrol to all the guard locations, swapping out the static guards with guards from the patrol. This would mean that which guards you encounter at any guard post would change. The difference could encompass everything from gear, level, class, weapons, loot and dispositions. If the patrolling squad comes across a guard location that doesn't have a guard (because some group killed it and it hasn't respawned yet), the patrol would immediately replace the missing guard(s) from the squad and then send one guard back to the barracks to get more guards. The squad leader would make a circular path back to the Captain of Guard. If that 'check-in' doesn't happen some number of times in a row (for sake of argument) the Captain of the Guard would send out additional patrols. Thus guards would be responding to the actions of the players in the area. Honestly, I just really hate static NPCs. Dull, boring and completely unimaginitive game design.
Vandraad said:I really like thinking about how guards should actually work in a place like a city or fortress. Instead of just static guards everywhere, there should be a process that happens with guards, that geing patrols. A squad leader, a named NPC, would take a squad on a patrol to all the guard locations, swapping out the static guards with guards from the patrol. This would mean that which guards you encounter at any guard post would change. The difference could encompass everything from gear, level, class, weapons, loot and dispositions. If the patrolling squad comes across a guard location that doesn't have a guard (because some group killed it and it hasn't respawned yet), the patrol would immediately replace the missing guard(s) from the squad and then send one guard back to the barracks to get more guards. The squad leader would make a circular path back to the Captain of Guard. If that 'check-in' doesn't happen some number of times in a row (for sake of argument) the Captain of the Guard would send out additional patrols. Thus guards would be responding to the actions of the players in the area. Honestly, I just really hate static NPCs. Dull, boring and completely unimaginitive game design.
When a guard post is empty, that could trigger an alert and the new guard that comes replacing the former one could have 10 more levels (each time)... just to deal with the bad guys that want to xp on guards...
Vandraad said:I really like thinking about how guards should actually work in a place like a city or fortress. Instead of just static guards everywhere, there should be a process that happens with guards, that geing patrols. A squad leader, a named NPC, would take a squad on a patrol to all the guard locations, swapping out the static guards with guards from the patrol. This would mean that which guards you encounter at any guard post would change. The difference could encompass everything from gear, level, class, weapons, loot and dispositions. If the patrolling squad comes across a guard location that doesn't have a guard (because some group killed it and it hasn't respawned yet), the patrol would immediately replace the missing guard(s) from the squad and then send one guard back to the barracks to get more guards. The squad leader would make a circular path back to the Captain of Guard. If that 'check-in' doesn't happen some number of times in a row (for sake of argument) the Captain of the Guard would send out additional patrols. Thus guards would be responding to the actions of the players in the area. Honestly, I just really hate static NPCs. Dull, boring and completely unimaginitive game design.
Having a movement scripting ability not only makes NPCs in cities feel more real, it also really helps make exploration more real and interesting.
Vandraad's example makes infiltrating a fortress far more strategic than simply clearing room to room. To avoid alerting the whole fortress, you not only need to watch for patrols, you also want to time your attacks to avoid shift change or quick discovery. If you see a runner going for help, you need to stop them. You might also consider ambushing the patrol first, since it will give you the most time to work your way farther in before being noticed.
Scripting basic activity sequences shouldn't be too hard if action sequences are programmed in, especially since many activity sequences would be common and could be quickly applied. Variables, like waypoints and spawn points being relieved would need to be changed.
A few variable action triggers can add in a lot of 'behavior' complexity and really allow us to manipulate the. NPCs in a way that feels real. Triggering an alarm could cause a large response, enabling a group to do this and then sneak in elsewhere.
Vandraad said: Honestly, I just really hate static NPCs. Dull, boring and completely unimaginitive game design.
Finally something we can agree on. I'm so glad to hear that like me, you want VR to develope every detail of Terminus to a high degree of complexity and excitement. No matter HOW LONG it takes to finish the game.
:D
There are places in some MMOs where you can tell development time just ran out. Cities without NPCs in half of the city or NPCs literally just standing in place not doing anything. You walk from an active market to a side street of 10 NPCs silently staring at you. No motion or anything, all dressed the same, no one has a name. I get animations are hard, but just have the NPC walk to a city door and vanish inside if you want.
I long for the RP only tabletops and dreams of AI can bring. Dynamic quests started after a guard outpost goes down. Players failed to aid the guards so players are asked to now fill in for them, heal them, notify the neighboring towns of the bandits escalation, repair the battlements, etc. I am not crazy enough to expect it from Pantheon though, especially pre alpha-alpha.