dorotea said:Suppose an expansion is set in a territory where gravity is 50% higher. We can function there, but poorly. Just well enough to get our first contragravity gear. As we proceed we get more and more - just like a level one starting off and getting better and better "normal" gear. Yet none of this makes us more powerful in normal gravity terrain so it does not in any slightest way reduce the challenge of the old content even after we are fully geared in contragravity gear. The same, of course, would apply if the new challenge was fire or cold or underwater action or low oxygen atmosphere etc.
Actually... it could allow us to jump a higher in normal zones (which might actually not be that great of an idea in caves or in combat).
The key point is always and remains character growth.
And I agree that most people have one MAIN character, and then alts... and if there is no point of playing the main anymore, then most people will think that there is no reason either to go thru the pain of getting an alt to max level where there will be nothing more to do as well.
Vandraad said:End game is, for me, where the most fun is found. At the end game you have the entirety of your toolbox in terms of spells/abilities, most likely the best gear available, etc so the breadth of things you can do is at its peak. You bring more to the table so the things you fight can also bring more things to the table. There is zero fun, for me, in the early levels when you have a garbage weapon, no skills, one or two spells and you're fighting rats or spiderlings. Boring AF so I do what I can to get through it as fast as possible.
Also, when you're at the end game, your ability to earn money is at its highest, your ability to gather resources for tradeskills is at its highest. It is here where, for me, I can dedicate more time to level up alts, leveling up tradeskills, farming materials, farming loots, etc.
/agree
Also the initial endgame should be hard as nails - only the most hardcore players will reach it for the first X months , so making it hard is good for them.
Later on as more ofthe base hits max level there can be easier content added, butthe initial batch should be hard enough to have the hardcore throwwing themselves at it for months.
This also buys time for dev team to create more :)
I hope I didnt give the impression that raiding should not be there. It should. I just want all other forms of progression to be there too. There should be a range of content that is just as difficult as raiding mobs so that (for those that see raiding as a chore - like me) can still feel that there is progression to be had. For instance, a group named mob could require raid like actions to over come, with multiple phases and awareness of what is happening around you. Difficult as hell, just not an all out raid.
There should be a range of difficulties ranging from standard game play all the way through to complicated "hard as nails" areas. I also think there should be multiple places for standard groups to go to at max level for general game play that they wont have done 100 times before.
I would also like to see groups having to interact to get something achieved that is not a raid. Requiring two or more groups do specific things to get into a new area. For instance, I could see one group attacking an area to cut off reinforcements while another has to the charge a gate mechanism and opens the door. Then they need to get together to break through the court yard together as it would be populated with harder than normal mobs and densly populated. Once they make it passed the court yard, they can go their separate ways and explore deeper. I can see lots of temp interactions like this getting groups to help each other to get through specific areas into new exploration sections.
There are tons of things that can be put in a game at max level that does not require a raid to complete that can still be challenging and rewarding.
I love end game, its why I play MMO's generally. But I also understand that many people have time constraints and real life obligations. I think its entirely possible to create multiple paths to end-game GEAR, if not make every bit of end-game content accessible to all.
I absolutely think that high end raids should be a thing. The number of people required will vary, whether its 25, or 40, whatever, but please make it AT LEAST 3 or 4 full groups. But at the same time, extremely difficult single group encounters can be implemented. Does anyone here remember the trials in Everquest when the Planes of Power was released? You had to pass the trials of the Plane of Justice to move on? I think this is an idea that could be drastically expanded upon, not just through trials but through lengthy and difficult quests for gear that is equivalent to similar level raid gear but can be done with single groups of well-prepared and skilled groups. Think Planes of Power trials combined with Epic Weapon quests. I know, this brings into question instancing versus open zones, since if its open it wouldn't be limited to just a single group and could be bum rushed by 20 people. But I do think its a discussion worth having. Some people, in large raid-oriented guilds will take on the big bosses with 40 people and build up. Others who are not in a big guild, but maybe have a solid group of friends who are willing to spend days or even weeks progressing through single group quests that ultimately result in gear of an equivalent level. After all, people in larger guilds could also persue these avenues as well. But it provides an alternative avenue for people who aren't in a large guild to keep pace, since they may one day choose to venture into the large group raid content. I honestly think there is a balance to be found, but it "may" require a certain level of instancing, which I know some people are wary of.
I like the idea of achievements, or completing multi-group events by controling certain event mechanics. It gives a reason to do the event again and forces the players to change their strategy in order to succeed in the achievement. Like solitaire or spider solitaire as an example or that Monopoly set up where all the properties are divided/mortgaged and the play starts from there.
First the moaning bit (move on to the second half if you prefer):
When people say "end game" it always make me remember playing Dungeons and Dragons and getting to high level such that characters having to fight demi-gods for a challenge and eventually would be effectively 'retired' and almost unwillingly be 'ascended' to demi-god-hood.
It always felt like what it says it is, to me: The end of the game.
I always prefer to start again.
It's the same with novels, as well. The best fantasy novels are a story of discovery and becoming powerful, but once the hero/heroine is an arch-mage or a warrior-king, the story is pretty much over, unless the author flogs it to death.
For MMORPGs it felt much the same. Once you had reached max level and done all the raids a few times, that was it. I would already have been running alts anyway and the 'end game' character would largely be 'retired'.
That's one aspect of why modern MMORPGs feel so disappointing to me, because they became all about the end game. The coming-of-age part, the discovering the world and learning and mastering your character was trivialised and rushed through so the repeat get-the-best-loot merry-go-round could begin. Ugh.
So what would I like end game to be? Not in order of importance, just as it occurs to me:
Raiding: As much as I don't want it to be just a get-the-best-loot merry-go-round, I do enjoy the max level raiding scene *IF* (and it is a big emphasised IF) it isn't a stressful toxic guild-politics nightmare.
Grouping: I would really like there to still be good group content at end game, not just raids. Grouping is the best fun to be had and for more than just efficient XP gain.
Multi-grouping: It would be fantastic for there to be non-raid content that requires groups to work side-by-side. This would be good pre-end game too, if course (raids also) but especially good at high level. I remember some content in EQ where you actually *wanted* to be near other groups rather than dreading other groups turning up and 'stealing' your pulls. Was the best feeling for groups to need to help each other out because the content was so tough.
Crafting: It's always nice to become known as a skilled crafter and going back to a max level crafter to craft and trade makes for a relaxing session.
AA: An Alternate Advancement system, if it isn't too significant and doesn't lead to uber-meta-builds is always a nice reason to keep playing with a max level character. The mastery system in Pantheon will probably cover this.
Achievements: I know they can be looked down on, but I like them as an additional motivation. Maybe I've gone some OCD completionist in me, but why not?
Alts: It's an obvious answer and I love playing alts. I don't understand why people would only want to experience one race-class combo if they are all interesting and distinct. I get that you will probably be repeating most content, but as a different class it can be a very different experience. The different race is usually only different in early starting areas, but still worthwhile.
Mentoring: Personally I love the feeling of helping 'noobs'. Simple as that. Though I will have alts, not all people will and a system that makes it easy to help noobs with your high level characters would be great.
Exploring/Discovery: Kind of a subset of achievements and a side-effect of alts, but I like worlds where continuing to travel is encouraged and it isn't all about repeating the most lucrative content over and over.
Cosmetics: Controversial I know, but leaving the particulars of any cosmetic system aside; I have very much enjoyed the activity in games like LOTRO of seeking out gear for its cosmetic look and not (just) its stats/power. This will happen throughout the game, but because it's not 'power' related, it is something I would continue to do with 'end game' characters.
Collection: Talking of collecting cosmetics, collecting anything can be fun. I enjoyed it as a side-game in EQ2 and Rift. I remember enjoying Archeology in one game but forget which. It adds another whole set of items to hunt and though that hunt may be more challenging at area-appropriate level, it could still be enjoyed at max level.
Epic Quests: I would like epic quests to go on throughout a character's 'life' and for when soloing, grouping, raiding, etc. The best thing would be for a 'basic' version of epic items/abilities to be earned prior to end game and for them to 'evolve' as a character does and that would it would usually still be ongoing during end game. The monk epic in Everquest was done this way to an extent. I remember more then one 'part' of the quest awarded an item that was very nice to use, though would eventually be turned in to get to the next part of the quest.
Challenge: As an overall aspect I think it's important that *some* end game content be 'hard'. I think there should be content that takes a lot of time (though perhaps in chunks) and takes a lot of people (though perhaps not a single guild) and takes a lot of character advancement and whatever else counts as skill and effort to the players. It's a big aspect of modern MMORPGs (and gaming in general) that has gone awry, in my opinion. It does not have to be a given that simple 'participation' should be enough to achieve everything there is to be achieved. Balance the game that way and it will be more accessible, sure. It will also be largely bland and boring. There is no entitlement for players to be able to 'beat' everything in the game just because they paid to get in. BUT (and it's a big BUT) it's important if there is tough content that there should not be any way that uber-players can 'gate keep' that content and stop others that aren't as powerful or skilled even trying it out.
Expansions: Don't just raise the bar. Especially if it makes what was done before feel lesser. Consider *all* the above stuff in expansions such that not just end game players are catered to, especially since a lot of 'end game' players will be enjoying alts. Expansions should expand the game, not just extend upwards.
New classes/races: Self-explanatory, I think, but I've put it here since people don't always think of that when they think of 'expansions'.
TL;DR: There's probably more. I guess the guiding principle is, as far as content is concerned, think horizontal more than vertical. 'End game' shouldn't feel like the end of the game and 'the game' should have so much to enjoy that you aren't particularly caring when you reach 'end game'.
In most MMOs end game is the end of character growth outside of gear collection with 60-90% of the content being irrelevant due to level or gear quality. So this is what it means to me because it is the expected system. Level into godhood and be left with raids or possibly super rare loot in a dungeon or two. Throw in an epic quest or two and perhaps even a faction worth grinding. Beyond those two options, ignore and train through the open world entirely because it is scaled to be a joke now. You "progressed" so much the game can't be difficult anymore outside of a handful of places.
In the kind of RPGs I wish existed end game would be the end of leveling but not the end of character growth. Learning most of your abilities at max level for doing quests in various zones. Progress through the different lands in whatever order you want. Go to toxic wastelands gaining gear needed to survive in the tougher toxic wastelands and earn skills you can only learn by doing that content. Leave the majority of the content viable and with ability unlocks people will keep wanting to progress through all of these sidegrades. Getting to max level would only be a training wheel phase. Even if your character mastered the toxic wastelands and obtained all the gear to survive the toxins, it won't let them survive the deepest lava caves. Your wizard can learn tsunami after combatting fire elementals in the lava caves and training with the faction that opposes them. Learn to target the elementals weakness, it could be your favorite spell. It may serve you relatively well for many other zones, but you would still know your favorite spell won't help in the underwater combat against the children of the kraken. Make it so going to help your friend doesn't mean you are a god boosting a mere mortal because combat ability is not that drastic.
Just a random thought... if the max level in Pantheon is like 50, make the masters level 100... I mean, they are supposed to be masters. Make us feel that we are not (yet) semi-gods, and do not hesitate to put mobs through out the game that are just plain hard even at max level... and let the players think of strategies to get them.
I mean a dragon level 500 somewhere that only a huge impossible to form raid could dream of beating... just so that the gamers in general keep in mind that they are not the world... and that some stuff is just out of reach... yet. A wet dream for the most hardcore raiding guild !
Grobobos said:Just a random thought... if the max level in Pantheon is like 50, make the masters level 100...
Not just the masters though but just the world as a whole. There is nothing wrong with needing to hide from threats too powerful for a single group of players. If the world has few mobs that are tuned to be more like a trash mob for a 40 man raid it's fine. The danger of needing to avoid an unwinnable fight is a mechanic that shouldn't end at max level. The world doesn't need to be overly curated.
The thing that always confused me about normal endgame is its literally a new type of game added on top of the leveling process. Why would a group focused game suddenly become a raid focused game simply because my level is the highest number available. Now I am not saying raids cant exist but they should be more of a side entertainment for the sake of lore. If level 50 is max level, then why can’t we have some complex level 50 group dungeons that lead down to complex level 55 dungeons. They will still be balanced around a single group but they just take everything you learned while leveling and crank it up to 11. Roamers, faster respawns, keys, unpredictable environments…. All for group content to really give something to challenge people.
I hope all raids use level scaling to bring you down to the level of the raid (no scaling up). Let us keep all our abilities, but scale all our numbers. This keeps all raids challenging, which has two main benefits:
So after reading this thread I was browsing the crafting section's discussion about how crafting will be implemented and what roll it will have, and it seems that crafting aspects could create some content for end-game. Whether you're talking potions or items with limited uses, reagents for high-end craftable gear, whatever. It seems like an intersting idea to have certain reagents drop from areas that only well equipped and experienced groups would be able to access them. Groups who have already taken the time to farm lower difficulty dungeons to attain gear that makes them capable of surviving these more difficult areas. Not only would this allow people who want to farm the items for their own crafting use do so, but would also be a place for non-crafters to farm items they could then sell and make some money. And if you spread these types of areas throughout the world you could avoid some of the perma-camp nature that became a problem with some items that only spawned in a specific place and had hours-long qeues to join the group camping it.
I'm not saying these would be the ONLY reason to go to these dungeons, as they could also have equipment drops that are sought after. But it would create content that people might actually WANT to farm. And if they don't get the item drop they were hoping for, maybe they at least get a couple nice reagent drops they can use. This would also allow the removal of these types of items from Raid content that requires multiple groups to get access too and give experienced single groups something to do. Go through a pretty darn difficult dungeon and come out of it with a handful of reagents SOMEONE is definitely going to want.
As somebody who plays hardcore style games like D2 and Full Loot PVP games like MO2. The endgame is something that you hardly achieve and if you do, you don't stay there forever. It's more like a power level you reside at for a varying degree of time like a week month or maybe even a day. And in that time frame you attempt to accumulate gear, weapons, fame, resources before the inevitable defeat and reset of power. Your experience as a player is the only constant. You get comfortable in high stress zones or in pvp situations which lets you climb back to the top in this endless cycle. And if the game has multiple leveling zones/dynamic content then it's not that bad. But if it's the same railroad themepark quest chain every life it's horrible.
I like to always feel like I am making my character better. That can be through leveling, AA's, gear, upgrading spells/abilities, and I like various ways of doing so, quests, grinds, raids, dungeons, the more the better to keep things from getting stale, and have some group and some solo contents. Stuff like housing or having personal farms helps to fill the time too.
Jobeson said:BigBadAzz1 said:...
This is probably one of the best summaries of end game. There is no real ending, only the rare loot grind and a lot of waiting.
You sir, sound like a quitter. Just saying :D
But to stay on topic... Pantheon is looking exactly how one should expect it. Pretty on point.
BamBam you give me an idea of high level/end game zones being flagged for pvp or at least have the option to flag yourself while being on a "non-pvp. " server. Would defintely give people something to do while waiting for a group to form or waiting for everyone to get online/gather in the zone to do some high level content
I liked the endgame group dungeon in Vanguard called Pantheon of the Ancients. Interesting name btw...
Unlike in a raid there was hardly room for errors. Some of the fights i still remember pretty well.
It was a good example of a tough group dungeon, not always a raid is needed for the hardest challenges.
There are several reasons for Pantheon to make the hardest content single group encounters rather than raids.
1. A single group boss encounter can much more easily be designed as a combat encounter not a dance, where the path to success is going from pixel to pixel in the right order with everything depending on how well you know the steps rather than how well geared and developed and played the characters are.
2. A single group encounter can be made much more unforgiving. Few people want a 24-person raid to fail because one person disconnected and couldn't get back or one character was poorly played. Yet people expect that a high difficulty single group encounter will fail if one person is missing or plays poorly.
3. Pantheon will not have the population of the established and still popular MMOs. Developing for group content not raids will emphasize content that it is much easier to get enough people for even on the smaller servers (some servers always are smaller than others after a while) or off-peak hours. Yes, I know that overall game population may be meaningless and it is server population that matters most, but this point still, I believe, has some validity.
4. This will be a different approach than is the current "meme". More importantly, it supports the theme that Pantheon is focused on grouping and groups more than current MMOs. There may be some marketing benefit here.
Note I neither urge nor think that Pantheon should not have raids. It should be a friendly home for both raiders and solo players. But just as a solo player should not expect to see the best gear and the fastest xp, neither should a raider.
In Vanguard there were long questlines, which had solo and group content and in the end a raid.
I would like to see a focus being on endgame group content, but it would be good to also have a 12 person and a 24 person raid as well.
Depending on guild size a 24 person raid isnt doable, but a 12 person one.
Gear drops should be similar in quality. Ofc quantity should be highest in a 24 person raid.