Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

The Importance of End Game

    • VR Staff
    • 510 posts
    January 9, 2023 9:03 AM PST

    Eventually, most of us make it to end game in any given MMORPG that we are playing.  Yes, the real fun can always be in the journey but the destination also needs to be engaging. 

    What does end game mean for you and what aspects of character progression do you prefer once you reach cap?  Share your thoughts!

    • 7 posts
    January 9, 2023 9:20 AM PST

    Well obviously the true end game is glamour/transmog, whatever you want to call it ;p It's always fun to go hunting for a specific piece of gear because it looks cool. Mostly when I think "End Game", raiding is the next thing to come to my mind. Getting more powerful gear is always nice, but if it looks good I'll generally try and go get it, even if it's a slight downgrade in stats.


    This post was edited by Sinnamortai at January 9, 2023 9:20 AM PST
    • 82 posts
    January 9, 2023 9:31 AM PST

    Since me and my guild plan on playing on the pvp server I expect there will be alot of fighting other players and guilds.

    Here's hoping the dev team has some good ideas to encourage people to keep pvp fun and long lasting, without resorting to arenas, battlegrounds or some instancing nonsense!

    • 2752 posts
    January 9, 2023 9:35 AM PST

    Trials and challenges. Not that they don't/can't exist prior to max level but I do look forword to those that push the limits of class skill (class based solo challenges/trials are always something I love to see, for example: original WoW hunter epic quests for Rhok'delar) as well as groups of players when they are fully kitted with spells/masteries and working their way up in gear. 

     

    Aside from that "End Game" means: time to deck out an alt as best I can to do it all again as a different role but in different parts of the world. 

    • VR Staff
    • 510 posts
    January 9, 2023 9:35 AM PST

    Sinnamortai said:

    Well obviously the true end game is glamour/transmog, whatever you want to call it ;p It's always fun to go hunting for a specific piece of gear because it looks cool. Mostly when I think "End Game", raiding is the next thing to come to my mind. Getting more powerful gear is always nice, but if it looks good I'll generally try and go get it, even if it's a slight downgrade in stats.

    In EQ2, once I hit cap with my monk, I went out to hunt down every gi that I could.  I loved swapping them out based on mood.

    • 141 posts
    January 9, 2023 9:56 AM PST

    Depends how fun is managed. Generally one can consider that there are three paths of character growth: level, gear, exploration and you could probably add to that challenge although I think the challenge without any growth might be considered as insufficient.

    - Level: when you are max level, obviously that is finished. Now you can imagine Alternative Advancement. Some sort of horizontal growth that lets you develop your character with new or improved abilities. Some games even go so far as removing levels completely and only offer Ability trees. I would suggest that actually, if AAs are going to be introduced, to allow to divest some % of your XP into AAs right from the start with may be opening up some AAs at a given levels (you may not want a exceptional fencer that is still lvl 1 only).

    - Gear: levels usually unlock new spells / abilities and increase your stats (either directly or level may appear hidden inside the formulas that define how one resists to foes). Gear on the other side leads to an increase in a direct set of stats just like levels and also in a more diverse set of stats: better swing rate, hit/spell dmg and HP, resists, AC, INT, etc... and that inside a level (it allows growth during a level). And gear is the shiny part that can be seen and directly measured. Usually it is a pretty big part in increasing your power inside a given level. At max level, gear mudflation is one way of continuing character growth, be it with raid, high level quests/group content. I certainly think that raids are part of the genre now. Should it be the focus of the end game? At the end of the day, as the game gets older, may be. You want challenge in a game. The problem with raid endgame is that it tends to eat up all the endgame and some even suggest that raids should not be too omnipresent at release so that it doesn't become THE goal of the game with the best rewards and the only path of ultimate growth at the expanse of the journey to high level.

    Some growth may come from crafting as well... but for me that is in the same league as levels (and it can even be seen as an AA). At some point you get to end game for crafting as well.

    - Exploration: Challenge remains an important part of such a game. There should be some places that are hard to get to, with fierce foes. Should they be raid beasts or group content... both of them captain ! I would suggest though that exploration at high level is not lmited to some new far away zone but that it should exist as well in the "common" zones where you grow up. That being said, there is a limit to what I just said. At some point, in a long long time from now, you need to add new zones to the game... and spending ressources to low level content for those zones that will mostly be traveled to by high level characters is almost a waste (although there should be no reasons why only lvl 80 mobs exist in those far away regions that suddenly open up). You can of course add a new race and a new starting city.. but most of the time, you will add high level mobs to these new zones... a little because thats the way ressources will be best spent.

    - Challenge: That is the icing on the cake. You had things like the sleeper in EQ1 that simply didn't give any gear but was a huge community challenge... but usually, you want some reward for your effort, which brings us back to the points I already spoke about.

    Why do you guys think? Do you some other ways of handling max level character growth?

    • 6 posts
    January 9, 2023 11:46 AM PST

    There should be many things to do at end game.  Long difficult quests, raiding, working on crafting, factions, and exploration.

    • 74 posts
    January 9, 2023 12:14 PM PST

    Sinnamortai said:

    Well obviously the true end game is glamour/transmog, whatever you want to call it ;p It's always fun to go hunting for a specific piece of gear because it looks cool. Mostly when I think "End Game", raiding is the next thing to come to my mind. Getting more powerful gear is always nice, but if it looks good I'll generally try and go get it, even if it's a slight downgrade in stats.

    You joke, but I'm 100% there. Pantheon: Rise of the Fashion is absolutely where a good portion of my time will be spent, both during leveling and at max level.

    Obviously, traditionally, people would say raids. Raids upon raids, that build up on each other and have gear that utterly trivializes everything else in the game, even stuff obtained via max level group content. And this is where it usually stops in a lot of modern games, I feel.

    But what I want for End Game is broader. Raids are all well and good, but I want other ways to acquire top-tier items. Group content, "epic" quests, special events, exploration-based rewards, crafting, achievements, etc, all of these things should have ways to gear up a character. Finding cosmetics like illusion items, paints/dyes, and even unlocking the ability to craft differently shaped gear or aspects of gear would be fantastic. Imagine being one of the few crafters on a server who can make a BP with a certain animal motif, simply because you did the necessary quest/hidden achievement thing in order to learn it. Gathering all those nifty clickies that make life easier/more interesting. Maxxing out mastery points. There should be lots of stuff related to faction that can still be done, with hopefully unique rewards. There's a lot of room for horizontal gameplay, and I hope to see them take advantage of it all.

    For me, like I mentioned at the very start, I'm going to have an emphasis on appearance lol. I'm going to want to look as absolutely awesome as possible, and I'm going to want different looks for different times/moods. In Warframe, I probably spent more hours painting my spaceship and my frames than I did actually playing the game haha. In WildStar and EQ2, I spent an inordinate amount of time on my house, getting everything just right and inviting friends over to hang out. In EQ1, I basically barded around in Lambent Armor from the day I got it until I quit the game years later. :P

    Edit: Not gonna even spitball or theorycraft about the progeny system until more details get revealed lol. I didn't forget it, there's nothing to talk about.


    This post was edited by Jiraki at January 9, 2023 12:22 PM PST
    • 2 posts
    January 9, 2023 1:17 PM PST

    Grobobos said:

    Depends how fun is managed. Generally one can consider that there are three paths of character growth: level, gear, exploration and you could probably add to that challenge although I think the challenge without any growth might be considered as insufficient.

    - Level: when you are max level, obviously that is finished. Now you can imagine Alternative Advancement. Some sort of horizontal growth that lets you develop your character with new or improved abilities. Some games even go so far as removing levels completely and only offer Ability trees. I would suggest that actually, if AAs are going to be introduced, to allow to divest some % of your XP into AAs right from the start with may be opening up some AAs at a given levels (you may not want a exceptional fencer that is still lvl 1 only).

    - Gear: levels usually unlock new spells / abilities and increase your stats (either directly or level may appear hidden inside the formulas that define how one resists to foes). Gear on the other side leads to an increase in a direct set of stats just like levels and also in a more diverse set of stats: better swing rate, hit/spell dmg and HP, resists, AC, INT, etc... and that inside a level (it allows growth during a level). And gear is the shiny part that can be seen and directly measured. Usually it is a pretty big part in increasing your power inside a given level. At max level, gear mudflation is one way of continuing character growth, be it with raid, high level quests/group content. I certainly think that raids are part of the genre now. Should it be the focus of the end game? At the end of the day, as the game gets older, may be. You want challenge in a game. The problem with raid endgame is that it tends to eat up all the endgame and some even suggest that raids should not be too omnipresent at release so that it doesn't become THE goal of the game with the best rewards and the only path of ultimate growth at the expanse of the journey to high level.

    Some growth may come from crafting as well... but for me that is in the same league as levels (and it can even be seen as an AA). At some point you get to end game for crafting as well.

    - Exploration: Challenge remains an important part of such a game. There should be some places that are hard to get to, with fierce foes. Should they be raid beasts or group content... both of them captain ! I would suggest though that exploration at high level is not lmited to some new far away zone but that it should exist as well in the "common" zones where you grow up. That being said, there is a limit to what I just said. At some point, in a long long time from now, you need to add new zones to the game... and spending ressources to low level content for those zones that will mostly be traveled to by high level characters is almost a waste (although there should be no reasons why only lvl 80 mobs exist in those far away regions that suddenly open up). You can of course add a new race and a new starting city.. but most of the time, you will add high level mobs to these new zones... a little because thats the way ressources will be best spent.

    - Challenge: That is the icing on the cake. You had things like the sleeper in EQ1 that simply didn't give any gear but was a huge community challenge... but usually, you want some reward for your effort, which brings us back to the points I already spoke about.

    Why do you guys think? Do you some other ways of handling max level character growth?

    I agree with this whole heartedly.  For me, endgame should not just be raiding for gear so you can do more raids.  It should be a balance of exploration, gear acquisiton through various means (epic quests, raids, dungeons, etc.), quests and events.  I want to be able to continue on my main character without feeling like I have to start a new character to experience content.  I really like the idea of revisiting dungeons and locations at various levels or ecclimation.

    • 3852 posts
    January 9, 2023 1:41 PM PST

    I too agree with Grobobus.

    But I tend to be contrarian on the issue of endgame. A few points that I know are unpopular - that isn't why I make them but it doesn't bother me a great deal either.

    1. Endgame should be low priority at release. If the game lives up to its development goals we won't get there soon. If no endgame at all lets us release the game three or six months earlier - do it. By the time more than one or two people get to maximum level you will have had enough time to put the endgame in. This will also serve as a disincentive for frantic speed-leveling.

    2. Endgame should never be *more* interesting than leveling. Note that all of the things Grobobus said are typical of the leveling process so having them at endgame does not run afoul of this proscription. What I truly don't want is the almost universal pattern of current MMOs. People rushing to level-cap and sometimes getting there in a day because the rest of the game is simply an obstacle standing between them and the "good stuff". So if you have raids at level 50 (or whatever maximum level is) have raids at level 20 and 30 and 40 too. 

    3. Downplay raids greatly compared to current MMOs. Focus on group-sized content - which is billed as the heart of the game. Raids should be like solo play - something to put in because you don't want the Pantheon niche to be too tiny but not the most important thing. A raid is typically far easier than group content for the players (other than the organizers who have to herd cats). A difficult dungeon requires every group member to have good gear and know their class. By contrast even difficult raids allow for a few people being noticably weak, even afk for boss fights. Fight a difficult group boss with a person or two afk and you wipe. The raid may not even notice an afk or two, Far less pressure on anyone other than the main tank and main healer. The best gear should be from group dungeons and crafting - not solo play and not from raids. Those things are tangential.


    This post was edited by dorotea at January 9, 2023 1:44 PM PST
    • 2419 posts
    January 9, 2023 2:10 PM PST

    Savanja said:

    Eventually, most of us make it to end game in any given MMORPG that we are playing.  Yes, the real fun can always be in the journey but the destination also needs to be engaging. 

    What does end game mean for you and what aspects of character progression do you prefer once you reach cap?  Share your thoughts!

    End game is, for me, where the most fun is found.  At the end game you have the entirety of your toolbox in terms of spells/abilities, most likely the best gear available, etc so the breadth of things you can do is at its peak.  You bring more to the table so the things you fight can also bring more things to the table.   There is zero fun, for me, in the early levels when you have a garbage weapon, no skills, one or two spells and you're fighting rats or spiderlings. Boring AF so I do what I can to get through it as fast as possible.

    Also, when you're at the end game, your ability to earn money is at its highest, your ability to gather resources for tradeskills is at its highest.  It is here where, for me, I can dedicate more time to level up alts, leveling up tradeskills, farming materials, farming loots, etc.

    • 326 posts
    January 9, 2023 3:04 PM PST

     

    What endgame? A new zone and all the old zones with their previously unreached areas and mysteries, please.

    • 3 posts
    January 9, 2023 3:41 PM PST

    First off, I hope the leveling is slow and long enough to last several months to reach max level. My biggest gripe with endgame is that it no longer feels like an adventure.

    Here are a few of my suggestions:

    • Mystery/treasure hunt for max level characters that reward unique limited items.
    • Max level class quests like the paladin/warlock mount quest in classic WoW.
    • Different factions to join that might battle for territory or resources. (PvPvE)
    • Instead of tansmogrification, a system that allows you to take notable weapons and armor and upgrade/empower them, raising their stats and unlocking unique passive effects when using them.
    • Faction based player housing. For example, obtaining a room in your factions HQ, and as you rank up, unlocking more areas that you can customize.
    • Scale down your level to join lower level players on their quests.
    • Periodically change the world in different ways. (A wildfire burning through a forest, water levels drop and rise, towns come under attack, etc.)

    This post was edited by Thoramir at January 9, 2023 3:41 PM PST
    • 12 posts
    January 9, 2023 4:48 PM PST

    For me, especially lately, I have found a lot of interest in MMOs with varied horizontal progression and account wide bonuses. Being able to keep unlocking bonuses for my account that benefit ALL characters keeps more than just high-level content relevant. I also generally like vertical progression where I can revisit older areas and really feel the difference in power in areas where I used to struggle or were not meant to be soloable. Being able to eventually solo raid bosses with enough vertical progression in previous MMOs was a great measure of that increase, even if the loot itself was no longer relevant for my character.

    Most importantly, though, I want to always feel some sort of progress each time I log on. So even at max leel I like my experience to count towards something useful, like AA. I also like to be able to unlock content rather than having it all available day one. Key quests, faction grinds, long quests, etc... in order to access "elite" areas -- yes please! Imagine a throne room where the guards don't neessarily kill you, but block you from entering below a certain faction theshold. Once you are able to enter, it allows you to accept a quest for unique items, etc...

    • 54 posts
    January 9, 2023 7:29 PM PST

    I really enjoyed end game raiding with my guild.  I want to see a Pantheon version of this end game.

    Horizontal advancement is also a good thing.  AA from Everquest did some of that but since most of the AA helped build your power, that became part of the grind.  It would be great to have some horizontal advancement that wasn't tied to a player's fighting ability.

     

     

    • 4 posts
    January 9, 2023 8:55 PM PST

    For some, the obvious answer is, raid!!!! but I hope there is non-raid PvE content to keep us busy too. It would be nice to see some small group or even solo content that is on a weekly lockout with nice rewards and/or compelling progression. Being an adult with a family doesn't give me much time to dedicate to long raids and weekly commitments to progress like when I was a kid. Without compelling endgame outside or raiding I usually resort to leveling alts and waiting for content. I imagine that PvP will be a pretty big focus for most, but for me, PvP is almost always a supplement to the PvE experience in an MMO. It can be fun, but PvE content is what keeps me around. Outside of combat activities, I'll likely spend a healthy portion of my time gathering, crafting, and playing the market as per usual.


    This post was edited by FunkyPickles at January 9, 2023 8:57 PM PST
    • 1999 posts
    January 10, 2023 3:51 PM PST

    Savanja said:  What does end game mean for you and what aspects of character progression do you prefer once you reach cap?  Share your thoughts!

    "End Game? We don't need no stinkin' end game!" *spoken in a bad, Mexican accent*

     

    I really don't find raids terribly appealing.

    After 50 levels of honing my skills in being part of a six member team, I look forward to some really challenging group content... for groups of six. I hope VR puts more than a little bit of exceptionally difficult content for single groups into the end game.

    I have plans for 6-8 classes that I really want to play. Plans to seriously level up several schools of crafting. I want to explore everywhere, including the world's oceans and to learn everything that Perception has to tell me. And to finish all the quests associated with these endeavors.

    Both P.R.o.t.F. and I may well survive until I reach max level on most of my characters, and if that happens then I'll play whatever content that is available. But I have no particular desire to get to that point, as it will mean that most of Pantheon's 'journey' will be finished. All good things come to an end eventually, and I want to postpone that as long as possible.

    • 888 posts
    January 11, 2023 12:27 AM PST

    End game is overrated.   If a game is only really fun at end game, I will have left before then. In many games, the sting of death goes away, so end game loses its sense of risk.  Iwant an enjoyable journey.  

    I do agree with Vandraad about low levels being boring, though I suspect we would define "low level" differently.   Once I get a full bar of spells/abilities and have some core class-defining ones, I'm fine with slower leveling. 

    • 141 posts
    January 11, 2023 12:48 AM PST

    Counterfleche said:

    End game is overrated.   If a game is only really fun at end game, I will have left before then. In many games, the sting of death goes away, so end game loses its sense of risk.  Iwant an enjoyable journey.  

    I do agree with Vandraad about low levels being boring, though I suspect we would define "low level" differently.   Once I get a full bar of spells/abilities and have some core class-defining ones, I'm fine with slower leveling. 

    I completely agree that endgame is overrated. That being said, you cannot just overlook it from the developpers point of view. They have, at some point, to have plans in place for when people reach that max level, be it vertically or horizontally. I think we somewhat all agree that we want the game to be fun at al levels. There are a lot of games out there where people reach endgame and then complain and quit because they basically consider that they don't have anything to do anymore. That has to be dealt with. I see quite a couple of people here that say things like (I know, I am oversimplifying) "Don't bother.. we want to enjoy the ride.. don't even work on endgame/ There will be plenty of time after release". I am not sure that is really helpful, although I understand why it is said. There are, after all, too many games where levels are the introduction and the game really starts at max level: look at lost Ark... you gain a level every 10 minutes... and it is only at max level that you get to play the actual game as it is supposed to be played (and then the grind fest starts, but that is another story altogether).

     


    This post was edited by Grobobos at January 11, 2023 12:48 AM PST
    • 30 posts
    January 11, 2023 4:58 AM PST

    Vandraad said:

    End game is, for me, where the most fun is found.  At the end game you have the entirety of your toolbox in terms of spells/abilities, most likely the best gear available, etc so the breadth of things you can do is at its peak.  You bring more to the table so the things you fight can also bring more things to the table.   There is zero fun, for me, in the early levels when you have a garbage weapon, no skills, one or two spells and you're fighting rats or spiderlings. Boring AF so I do what I can to get through it as fast as possible.

    Also, when you're at the end game, your ability to earn money is at its highest, your ability to gather resources for tradeskills is at its highest.  It is here where, for me, I can dedicate more time to level up alts, leveling up tradeskills, farming materials, farming loots, etc.

    I totally agree with you Vandraad.

     

    • 128 posts
    January 11, 2023 9:36 AM PST

    Savanja said:

    Sinnamortai said:

    Well obviously the true end game is glamour/transmog, whatever you want to call it ;p It's always fun to go hunting for a specific piece of gear because it looks cool. Mostly when I think "End Game", raiding is the next thing to come to my mind. Getting more powerful gear is always nice, but if it looks good I'll generally try and go get it, even if it's a slight downgrade in stats.

    In EQ2, once I hit cap with my monk, I went out to hunt down every gi that I could.  I loved swapping them out based on mood.

    The "end game" has IMHO always been something that is impossible to design to please everyone.  I think the end game will instead develop organically from the playerbase.

    A lot of folks I knew would raid only, trying to get the last few "best in slot" items, others would grief less robust players in PvP, some would mentor friends, some teach newbies, many will focus on gathering and crafting. Others will try to complete as many of their "skipped" quests as possible. I personally actually ran Monk training classes for new monks in EQ in Freeport 2-3 times a week, and eventually many of my guild friends joined. I NEVER thought I would have fun doing that, but I did. So I don't think there is a single answer other than "expansions and level upgrades". Horizontal levelling and Progeny may help this, but those need fleshing out to see first.

    Like you, as I said, I played a Monk in (EQ and) EQ2.  I too made it a point to find every Gi in game (I'm very hopeful we have tons of them in Pantheon and tons of VISIBLE headbands and sashes) but I gave many/most of them away to new Monks.  One of the great joys of being a Monk in EQ was the ability to use 2HB, dual-wield 1 HB, Hand to Hand and Martial type weapons.   So I'm hopeful that Pantheon also does this. 


    This post was edited by Nagasakee at January 11, 2023 9:42 AM PST
    • VR Staff
    • 510 posts
    January 11, 2023 9:40 AM PST

    Nagasakee said:

    Like you, as I said, I played a Monk in (EQ and) EQ2.  I too made it a point to find every Gi in game (I'm very hopeful we have tons of them in Pantheon and tons of VISIBLE headbands and sashes) but I gave many/most of them away to new Monks.  One of the great joys of being a Monk in EQ was the ability to use 2HB, dual-wield 1 HB, Hand to Hand and Martial type weapons.   So I'm hopeful that Pantheon also does this. 

     

    Monks kind of get the whole "Jack of all trades, master of none" rap, but I have always loved the fluidity of how they play and are used.  Such a good class with so many options.

    • 141 posts
    January 11, 2023 10:26 AM PST

    Savanja said:

    Monks kind of get the whole "Jack of all trades, master of none" rap, but I have always loved the fluidity of how they play and are used.  Such a good class with so many options.

    Dirt crawlers... A little consideration for the inn owners that have to clean all the mud and dust when monks come drink herbal tea (not like they could drink a beer...).

    Nah, nothing like Shadowknights... ok, we were also dirt crawlers but at least we did that with style, in a nice shiny armor !

    • 902 posts
    January 12, 2023 4:04 AM PST

    For me, the "End game" has always been a temporary sub game until the next expansion comes out and raises the level cap which also makes the current equipment, obsolete.

    What you can do once level is maxed really affects how you play the game. If all questing and exploration has finished, then raiding is the only realistic option if you want to play the game. Historically I liked to get my character as much Epic questing/raiding gear as the game allowed. Whether I actually enjoyed the raiding part, I'm not sure? It was exciting and stressful, but fun? A lot of standing around waiting for people to get ready then having to build points to buy required drops. Regimented attendances. DPS/HPS leagues. Politics. Urgh, I just want to play the game and have an enjoyable time while playing.

    Yes, I understand the learning part of raiding is fun. Where to go, what to do, what to look out for, timings, etc. etc. Great! Just the standing around, buying stuff with points, being forced to be on at specific times. Having to fill in at short notice. Having to drop at even shorter notice. Finger pointing when things go wrong. Third party add-on requisites. Retry ad nauseam. Meh. For me, forced repeated game play becomes boring.

    I must also admit, I was horrified when I got my first ever expansion and found out that trash dropped equipment as good as (if not better than) my current epic/raid gear. Made all my hard work pointless, really and it was a real wrench having to swap an epic out for a trash drop.

    For me the real fun is the exploration, going to new places, seeing new areas, fleshing my character out with new skills and abilities, kits and belongings and yes, even house crafting. A game that can create a feeling where it is believable that your character can live in the world it inhabits, is utopia.

    Having game play at max level, which is not just raiding is as important as it is through every other level. For me, raiding will be a part of it (as it will throughout my journey), but it will be the exploration and character development that is important to me. I hope I can update skills and equipment sufficiently without being forced down the raiding path and feel like I have still made progress. I hope there is enough non-raid content at max level to keep me going that is interesting, new and varied as the raid zones. 

    The real questions are how VR sees the Pantheon expansion path? Will the level cap be raised or will we have more skills without raising the cap? Will epic/raid items become obsolete as soon as an expansion hits?


    This post was edited by chenzeme at January 12, 2023 7:41 AM PST
    • 3852 posts
    January 13, 2023 9:44 AM PST

    I agree with about all that chenzeme says. While I have repeatedly opined that the game should not follow the "endgame raids are the real game the rest is crap to be slogged through as fast as possible" model and even said that having any endgame at all is low priority given the anticipated slow pace of leveling - I certainly feel that having things to do at maximum level is vitally important. 

    While I feel that they can wait - I think that having them available by the time a significant percentage of us hits maximum level is very important. Whatever we say about sniffing the roses and exploring Terminus, many people focus on one "main" character even if they have "alts" - in fact the alts are often there to support it. With no real "endgame" they won't stay once they hit maximum level. Worse - they won't even start without an expectation of a robust "endgame". So my somewhat contrarian view is purely about timing. Even a hugely funded game like SWTOR had a clearly inferior endgame at release and had to work on it afterwards.

    While I feel that raids should not be more important than other content at the endgame - though they have a role to play - that assumes that there *is* other content. I would rather follow the raid model than have very little content at all. But I see endgame single-group dungeons that drop better gear than raids as the way to go not the current raid primacy model.

     

    "I must also admit, I was horrified when I got my first ever expansion and found out that trash dropped equipment as good as (if not better than) my current epic/raid gear. Made all my hard work pointless, really and it was a real wrench having to swap an epic out for a trash drop."

     

    Normal in almost any MMO but like the raid primacy model the fact that we are so used to it does not mean that it is the only way to go. Or even the *best* way to go. As quite a few of us have said over the years there is great merit to the horizontal model. Summarizing briefly - a horizontal model has expansions that do not raise the maximum level. At least as important - new gear is *not* better than old gear - at least for use anywhere in the older parts of the game. Yet an expansion needs to offer gear and new abilities to incent us to buy it and to give us reasons to play it. Is this all contradictory? Not at all. 

    Suppose an expansion is set in a territory where gravity is 50% higher. We can function there, but poorly. Just well enough to get our first contragravity gear. As we proceed we get more and more - just like a level one starting off and getting better and better "normal" gear. Yet none of this makes us more powerful in normal gravity terrain so it does not in any slightest way reduce the challenge of the old content even after we are fully geared in contragravity gear. The same, of course, would apply if the new challenge was fire or cold or underwater action or low oxygen atmosphere etc.

     


    This post was edited by dorotea at January 13, 2023 9:47 AM PST