One thing that is very noticable for me about Pantheon is that the open world seems to be modelled in a way, that you call "fishtank". This means that the world map is strongly confined by cliffs, mountains, or other vertical obstacles. As examples, you can see a lot of cliffs in Cohh's streams, but also in developer previews, like here.
Before I get to my opinion, I'd like to note that I am aware of the following aspects of Pantheon:
So my opinion is that such fishtank design does not suit the MMORPG genre.
For one, it gives me, as a player, the feeling that everything is on rails or "too designed". Thus the immersion breaks really hard and I'll have a hard time falling in love with the game. Another bad example for such world design is the starter planet for the Jedi class in SWTOR. On the other hand, you have positive examples, like the revamp of the old starter zones in LOTRO, where the world designer deliberatly took away the fishtank feeling, yet keeping the players movements at bay. So maybe it would be possible to bring more variety into Pantheon's open world by loosing up the cliffs and surroundings?
Secondly, the cliffs do get repetitive for the viewer very fast. Not only it looks like "oh, here comes another zone but it's just reskinned". As a player, I already can anticipate that if this fishtank prevails to the release, I will think "look, there is a cliff, the devs want me to climb here or restrict me from getting there". Is it really necessary to always climb perfect 90° hard stone cliffs? Would it be possible to bring in more variation for angles, materials and forms?
What is the opinion of the community and of the devs regarding this topic? Is this still something that can be worked upon? Or is it too big of a change for the game design and world building?
Excellent question - and while I am used to the concept after decades of MMMOs and MUDs I acknowledge its limitations. Though I found all of the SWTOR worlds to be much the same in terms of doing the same things in the same order each time through. And was not too much bothered by the small starter area of Archet being hemmed in unrealistically.
To me the opposite approach is one taken in a number of games where the world feels almost infinite in almost all directions - because it is. Territory is created semi-randomly as you enter it. I like this a lot less - everything feels sterile and meaningless and I get no feeling of accomplishment getting through an area designed just for me by the computer.
Assuming Pantheon doesn't work that way ((shudders visibly)) it clearly needs borders. By definition. Is the way you prefer the way many games use? You can go in any direction, and there are some internal barriers such as mountains and seas, but you can explore almost everywhere. After a while you hit the edge of the continent or island you start on. There is an absolutely impassable border - perhaps a mountain chain with no passes or an ocean with no end or an area with with wildlife that not even the strongest maximum level raid group can make a dent in.
The way you accomplish this is to have the scaling ridiculous if one thinks about it - but we normally don't because we are used to it - just as we are used to what you call fishtank development. If five zones east takes me to the edge of a continent and five zones west takes me to the end of a continent and I can cross each zone on foot in 10 minutes what does this tell us? It tells us that the continent is 5 miles wide give or take. Is the fishtank *less* immersive than this? Not to me.
I guess I am pointing out the need for some limitations and saying that while your objections to "fishtank" are valid - other approaches may be worse.
I must admit that when I first looked at the map and saw the corridors between two valleys, it very much made me think about EQ1 and zone boundaries that were so that you didn't have a too wide point of view into the next zone. Now, from what I understand the game was first meant as a zoned game and that they later one opened it up with seamingless zone boundaries.
Now, let us go back to history. Countries and regions were often bounded by natural obstacles such as large rivers, mountains, deep forests. One thing I would like to see altitude mountain passes rather than what we see right now in the maps.
Content is king and the climbing system looks to provide a sense of mystery and adventure, making those cliffs, steppes, and craggy mountains, content in and of themselves.
The game that really frustrated me was GW1 as to the hemmed-in feeling.
As far as Pantheon goes, having spent a lot of time in the Cascades of the PNW, I can't wait to come to a cliff face in the game and find a way up.
Thunderleg said:As far as Pantheon goes, having spent a lot of time in the Cascades of the PNW, I can't wait to come to a cliff face in the game and find a way up.
Haha, I was going to reply something very similar to this. Having spent most of my life in the PNW I was going to say a lot of that feels *very* natural. My drive to the next city over is on a road that goes between 2 mountains. ... but there is also a road up INTO the mountain for those that want to adventure up there. There are also plenty of hiking trails up, through, and around mountains. So far what I've see of Pantheon gives me a pretty natural feeling of exploration. "If you can see it you can get there." "Everything is climable." Those natural choke points in the maps are just ONE option (and probably the most common) for getting from one zone to another, but I expect there will be plenty of other...more dangerous routes.
As far as the 90 degree angle rocks are concerned...I am holding out to see what other zones look like. I have seen plenty of rocks and cliffs in real life like the ones we've seen in Thronefast but they aren't super common. We'll see what they come up with for the other zones.
What Grobobos said about history, how "countries and regions were often bounded by natural obstacles such as large rivers, mountains, deep forests" is absolutely on point. Thronefast, AVP, etc are all the way they are due to the unique geography. The relationship between the orcs in AVP, the Thronefastians, Black Rose Keep, etc are all predicated on the terrain.
For people who grew up in the PNW, like Ranarius and Thunderleg, it's pretty clear that this is actually rather normal geography. It's not "fantastic" or artificial, really. Only in the context of a game world does it seem that way, which is a point to think about to be sure. But as a tester, I can say with confidence that climbing really does open a lot of doors to breaking that fishbowl feeling.
But my most important point that I think will help, is that it's been explicitely stated by the devs in a few of the streams that the stepped terrain we are seeing in Kingsreach is not going to be reflected in many other zones. And the footage we've seen has reflected that. We've seen flyovers and screenshots of Wild's End, The Mad Moors, Faerthale, and even, I believe, a bit of the Silent Plains. Going further back in time and we have some pretty good views of part of South Saol , though that's old enough to probably not be 100% reliable at this point. And even better, if you check out the official world map, it reflects the general terrain they've generated. And you will hopefully notice that the heavily stepped, mountainous geography of Kingsreach and AVP is not reflected everywhere else. Might that change? Perhaps, Faerthale does look a little bumpy on the map there. But I think it's a good thing to keep in mind that they are trying to create a world that makes sense, and not a series of boxes to play in.
TheWingless said:What Grobobos said about history, how "countries and regions were often bounded by natural obstacles such as large rivers, mountains, deep forests" is absolutely on point. Thronefast, AVP, etc are all the way they are due to the unique geography. The relationship between the orcs in AVP, the Thronefastians, Black Rose Keep, etc are all predicated on the terrain.
True, yes, but if you look at the map which was show in a stream a while back, every zone has these mountainous ridgelines separating them. It is a fishbowl world even if you allow for climbing over those ridges to cross into any area you wish from any other area.
osyris said: What is the opinion of the community and of the devs regarding this topic?Is this still something that can be worked upon? Or is it too big of a change for the game design and world building?
We haven't seen an updated map of the other two continents yet. So while I'd guess that Kingsreach isn't getting any big changes, it is possible the Devs might take this into consideration for Reignfall & Whitethaw. It never hurts to post your opinion.
As far as my viewpoint on this, I can say that in past games I have felt constrained when my travels were overly restricted by mountains all around. But those mountains were mostly static boundaries enforcing zone lines, with little or no content in caves, ledges or hidden canyons. While I haven't set foot on Terminus yet, I've never gotten that feeling from watching the streams that have been put out.
I like mountains. I enjoy seeing them in real life when I go outside. And with the emphasis on climbing that Pantheon will have, every mountain or cliff I see in the game looks like 'an exotic, far off land of danger, excitement and untold rewards'. And yes, I also live in the PNW :)
I don't have a major problem with this type of zone structure. While the moutains may guide player in some ways, I don't think it means the game is directing us to play on rails. We will only know for sure as we get into the game and play during alpha/beta.
We've only seen a few zones on one continent and there will be a lot of other zones, so we may see more open zone in some of the new zones and continents. Plus the zones are huge, so while they look limited on a map, as we get into the game and play we might find they aren't as constraining as they seem.
Jothany said:As far as my viewpoint on this, I can say that in past games I have felt constrained when my travels were overly restricted by mountains all around. But those mountains were mostly static boundaries enforcing zone lines, with little or no content in caves, ledges or hidden canyons.
And that is where is has to be different. There should be passes, high altitude mobs (I was referring to eagles in some other post), caves that are far out and hard to reach (and find for that matter). If the mountain is just a wall that I can actually cross by climbing but with more difficulty than the valley road.. then I will do it once because I can, and that will be it. Mountains will be another wall.
As far as my viewpoint on this, I can say that in past games I have felt constrained when my travels were overly restricted by mountains all around. But those mountains were mostly static boundaries enforcing zone lines, with little or no content in caves, ledges or hidden canyons.
Grobobos said: And that is where is has to be different. There should be passes, high altitude mobs (I was referring to eagles in some other post), caves that are far out and hard to reach (and find for that matter). If the mountain is just a wall that I can actually cross by climbing but with more difficulty than the valley road.. then I will do it once because I can, and that will be it. Mountains will be another wall.
I'm sorry, I wasn't really very clear. I was trying to say that because of the emphasis on climbing, it all will be different. VR has made all those mountains climbable and has told us repeatedly that there will be lots of content to find by climbing. Caves, ledges, valleys, mesas, hidden villages. Abominable Snowmen! Lonely hermits with a quest for a crafting recipe that no one else has. Harvesting mats that can only be found in moonlight, in the winter :)
Because of the emphasis on climbing, I expect all of that. Sure, they may fail. But THIS is what they are aiming for.
Jothany said:I'm sorry, I wasn't really very clear. I was trying to say that because of the emphasis on climbing, it all will be different. VR has made all those mountains climbable and has told us repeatedly that there will be lots of content to find by climbing. Caves, ledges, valleys, mesas, hidden villages. Abominable Snowmen! Lonely hermits with a quest for a crafting recipe that no one else has. Harvesting mats that can only be found in moonlight, in the winter :)
Because of the emphasis on climbing, I expect all of that. Sure, they may fail. But THIS is what they are aiming for.
#Cheer for that !!