Should NPCs lie to you as much as real people would? I do a lot of table top gaming and realized video game NPCs never lie outside of scripted cutscenes that often uncover said lie immediately or they are over the top characters like M'aiq the liar. The quest markers always update with ease and honestly you could ignore everything they say anyways.
At the ttrpg level the NPCs will lie for any number of reasons. Mistaken, misinformed, bigotry, fear, etc.
Is it uncommon because players find it frustrating or because its too difficult to create?
Should the gnome hating ogre give your gnome a deadly quest while saying its easy?
Should an old man blame his missing sheep on creatures that simply don't exist? Would you rage not being able to turn in the quest for a chupacabra?
Should the nearly blind old lady tell you it was a bobcat when it was actually a bear? Perhaps she would still give you burnt cookies for your trouble if you explain the cave was full of bears.
Perception as a kind of telepathic mechanic as exhibited by Anya from "spy x family"? (papa/npc is lying) for balance against lying?.
Better cultural perception where cultural perception skill/hints is based on faction numbers or combination of certain kinds of faction numbers earned/gained by player. You can have racial faction that will allow you to pass through and sell and generally interact but unless you have cultural faction will you get nuance in the form of perception pings that tell you if NPC is scared/hiding something/lying/distracted. An outright lie with no recourse would be frustrating to snowflake players. Cultural faction may also alert you to the sales clerk "in back" that offers racially cultural sewing/armor patterns - stunning!~lore, no trade~, or other recipes?~food tradeable, can be stacked to 5 only.
Pro-players may discover through some long and graduated quest that it is necessary to know someone with bad faction or more importantly as a dev checksum a lack of cultural perception ping (via numbers) to ask for a quest from the hag that lies so they can be lied to and upon competion be given the horrid reward of burnt cookies because it is those burnt cookies either obtained through this quest or happened upon through certain class crafting RNG (clerics burn the bread)that is the hand-in needed to continue the long graduated quest. Ideally the person with bad faction would have it due to inherent vice- just because they are halflings ,ogres, gnomes or anyone but us, or the unfortunate cleric that happens to sometimes burn the bread when baking.
Manouk said:An outright lie with no recourse would be frustrating to snowflake players.
I am all in favor but there has to be some warning signs that may or may not be noticed by the player but that have to be clear in retrospect.
When I master a DnD game, the peasant that lies to the face of the players acts the lie. He looks suspicious, doesn't give straight answers, hesitates before giving up clues... as a GM you can play it out, which is not as easy in a game where the answers are scripted (it seems like we need some sort of chatGTP to fuel the game dialogues :) ).
What would not be cool, as mentioned is a straight lie that you have no way of being suspicious about just because you may or may not lack a couple of factions points.
Ideally, and there was a single player game that did this over 20 years ago, your attributes will affect what information you get and what your conversation options are. Thus, charisma could get you a more helpful answer, intelligence might let you get more information, wisdom might let you have a useful follow-up question, strength might give you a "threat" option and so forth. None of this is at all likely in Pantheon but it is a really good way of having attributes be useful for all classes even if not in combat. To note the obvious - Pantheon will probably be less reliant on quests than most MMOs (which I consider unfortunate) and so all of this is less important than it otherwise might be.
The Perception Stream makes it seem like Storylines and Quest lines just might have significant impact. They have built into the system triggers for NPC's to say certain things and react certain ways. Seems like they have a lot of options in this arena and I hope they are able to use as many of those options as possible.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCKDgQ7KS1Q
And then the Fortress Deviare stream where Cohh was able to eavesdrop on a few NPC's having a conversation while stealth...he was able to get info that way that he would have not been able to get if he just tried talking to them himself. I guess the question being asked though is whether or not the NPC's would flat out lie to him if he tried to talk to them rather than saying "I don't want to talk to you." It's cool that VR has already shown their ability to go all kinds of directions with this though :)
(I would find a timestamp and link on that one for ya but I'm having a hard time finding it at work haha)
dorotea said:Ideally, and there was a single player game that did this over 20 years ago, your attributes will affect what information you get and what your conversation options are. Thus, charisma could get you a more helpful answer, intelligence might let you get more information, wisdom might let you have a useful follow-up question, strength might give you a "threat" option and so forth. None of this is at all likely in Pantheon but it is a really good way of having attributes be useful for all classes even if not in combat. To note the obvious - Pantheon will probably be less reliant on quests than most MMOs (which I consider unfortunate) and so all of this is less important than it otherwise might be.
I don't see this MMO having all of the talking options based on stats either but it would be nice for an MMO in general. I think they could fold it into perception if handholding was needed. Players could speak with other NPCs about the location before or after picking up the quest and learn it is exceptionally deadly and to put it off until they have trained more. This could be used to update the journal.
The largest problem will always be the efficiency players. Overall I think if they are willing to pay money to VR to then take steps to not play most of the game that is ok. Let them look up the quest online or install a mod to give them walkthroughs for everything. Instantly see if it is doable or see if they can skip to the final objective without any actual questing taking place.
Regarding questing in general, I hate the quest to level trope modern MMOs have created. I am hopeful Pantheon will be out of that area, but fewer quests overall is still better than bad quest design. If VR gets quests entirely wrong, having fewer bad quests makes for a superior game. I despise how the little old lady gives you a magic sword, xp, and gold for killing the gophers in her garden.
As for Ranarius, imagine being lied to about a quest then coming back secretly to overhear the guy making fun of how they just lied to you to his friend. Its the kind of thing I hope we may see in the game.
"Regarding questing in general, I hate the quest to level trope modern MMOs have created. "
I partly agree. Quests should not let you get to maximum level in a day or a week or even a month. Magical swords should not be available from killing 10 gophers - they should be rare drops or finds or available for purchase for a *lot* of in-game coin.
I partly disagree. I find the approach of allowing a character to get to maximum level by questing rather than just killing gophers for 1xp per kill to be desirable. I find going around looking for things to kill purely for the xp rewarded to be amoral at best, immoral at worst, and to lack any real connection to the world and its people. While I agree that quests should not be a magical speed ramp to high level and wonderful gear - I also want to be able to spend my time in Terminus doing things for a reason other than pure selfishness. Doing quests lets me feel part of a living world even if the quest *is* a minor one like kill 10 wolves threatening a village in exchange for a reward of 10 silver pieces and a small amount of xp. In fact *especially* if the quest has no impact on the world as a whole.
Quests where I am the great hero or the sidekick of the great hero are precisely what I want to avoid. They lock me into a road that leads from level 1 to maximum level with too little flexibility. Too little choice as to who to help and who to hinder - whether to be good, evil or somewhere in the middle. Plus doing all of those things and finding that when I am done the world looks precisely the same as before I did them is not all that good for immersion. Everquest handled quests far better than LOTRO or SWTOR or Rift or WoW from this perspective. But this does not mean I want to kill gophers for 1xp per kill - or even dragons for 1 million xp per kill. With no reason to kill the poor things other than my greed. Quests give me a *reason* for what I do in a MMO. Good, evil or neutral reasons in a well designed MMO but some reason other than I want that 1xp or that 1 million xp.
I was wondering something else entirely... how long will it take for a chatGPT of sorts to manage the dialogues of the NPCs in games like Pantheon? Imagine a world where NPCs have some base dialogue but it evolves with time and all the interactions with the players... and said NPC could very well react differently depending on faction, rudeness, the fact that you are already the tenth today that wants to get rid of the wolves in the nearby woods... And most importantly, have mundane discussions with other NPCs...
Grobobos said:I was wondering something else entirely... how long will it take for a chatGPT of sorts to manage the dialogues of the NPCs in games like Pantheon? Imagine a world where NPCs have some base dialogue but it evolves with time and all the interactions with the players... and said NPC could very well react differently depending on faction, rudeness, the fact that you are already the tenth today that wants to get rid of the wolves in the nearby woods... And most importantly, have mundane discussions with other NPCs...
I have been saying the same as people rant about chatGPT. All the writers fear the star trek like future that is coming. One where you can ask Elrond or MLK about anything you can think of.
For now though I hope VR doesn't go for complete truthfulness where every NPC is omnipotent. Part of this will be resolved by simply not having map pointers. There can be no, I lost my ring in the lake... here is the exact spot at the bottom of the lake for you to auto run/swim to.
It will be the standard one day, and the game that masters that will be the talk of the day. I do not think that the technology is ready for it just yet, because what you fundamentally may need is a neural network (conscious) for each NPC (or group of) and that you train it with NPC related dialogue and objectives... and put also some safeguards so that you do not deviate too much (like the one of the first attempt of a chatbot that basically became a nazi after talking with trolls).
Anyway, about lying. I think NPC shoudk react to you differently depending on your faction, and not necessarily by "Farmer 01 scowls at you".
Jobeson said:Should NPCs lie to you as much as real people would? I do a lot of table top gaming and realized video game NPCs never lie outside of scripted cutscenes that often uncover said lie immediately or they are over the top characters like M'aiq the liar. The quest markers always update with ease and honestly you could ignore everything they say anyways.
At the ttrpg level the NPCs will lie for any number of reasons. Mistaken, misinformed, bigotry, fear, etc.
Is it uncommon because players find it frustrating or because its too difficult to create?
Should the gnome hating ogre give your gnome a deadly quest while saying its easy?
Should an old man blame his missing sheep on creatures that simply don't exist? Would you rage not being able to turn in the quest for a chupacabra?
Should the nearly blind old lady tell you it was a bobcat when it was actually a bear? Perhaps she would still give you burnt cookies for your trouble if you explain the cave was full of bears.
Sure. I like this idea. I think it should be tied to things too, such as faction, class, race, and what-not.
I've been saying this for years. Haven't I been saying this? Nah, it's a great idea BUT from released information, we need to stop thinking about quests and perception in the same breath. They are different. And we aren't talking about lying NPCs that make you do something you don't receive a reward for. Maybe for some quest, that happens, but it is part of the quest to come back and stealth listen to a conversation that leads to the next part of the quest.
I the Perception system, someone could tell you a rumor they heard about a ping that you got out in the wild. It may not be true but leads you to another piece of the story and as you gather different clues, the truth reveals itself.
I rememeber the rogue epic from EQ. There was a lot of lying going on in that dialogue, but it was part of the quest, not something to trip you up and get you off the quest.
AND, already there is lying known in the game just from what is released. The ogres claim that the Wos Che assisted the Revenant during the Deicide War and the Wos Che adamantly say they did not. So, someone is lying. Also, the Keeper from which we have a lot of our relelased lore claims that there are many keepers that lie for political reasons at the behest of the powerful.
So we shouldn't look at it like you can't trust anything or any quests NPCs give you cuz they could be lying. More, look at it like each bit of information you gather leads you closer to knowing the truth.
"The ogres claim that the Wos Che assisted the Revenant during the Deicide War and the Wos Che adamantly say they did not. So, someone is lying. "
This is not at all necessarily so. Someone may be lying, quite true. But maybe someone is simply wrong. Perhaps because someone else generations ago lied about what happened or spun things to be a bit more favorable for their side than might have been consistent with the truth. Or perhaps just because of the natural tendency to believe things more favorable to your people and disbelieve things more favorable to "them".
Maybe no one ever lied and the truth is simply in the middle. Perhaps the Wos Che did something that the ogres viewed as assisting the Revenant but the Wos Che did not view it that way,
Maybe no one ever lied and one or more minds were confused by magic or deific influence to believe something that was untrue.
Lying is the act of saying something that you know is untrue. Lying is *not* the act of saying something that you think is true even though it happens to be false.
"Dorothea I think ur making my point."
Good because I do agree with it. The more realistic the actions of NPCs the easier immersion becomes - as long as it doesn't make the gameplay too frustrating. If two races or other factions hate eachother it stands to reason that what you are told when visiting one of them will be very different from what you are told when visiting the other. And, although this may come as a shock to some, people do lie in ways and for reasons having nothing to do with general factions and some NPCs are quite likley to engage in the activity.
If I spend an hour killing ten wolves for a farmer and return to find out she was not really a farmer and the wolves were not really a threat and I was spoofed into doing something harmful not helpful - good, things like that do happen occasionally. If I spend 100 hours on what seems to be an epic questline and find out the whole thing was a sham and there is no reward - perhaps I will view it with less equanimity.
dorotea said:If I spend 100 hours on what seems to be an epic questline and find out the whole thing was a sham and there is no reward - perhaps I will view it with less equanimity.
Yeah the entire thing being a sham would be horrific, but if you were running down a false lead or two over that 100 hours rulling them out or giving up on them and moving onto the next lead that ends up panning out it can be realistic and fun.
The funny thing is the NPCs can be entirely truthful and people will still misinterpret the meaning and go off on wild assumptions. I spent so much time in early RPGs figuring out quests.
Having things be intentionally a bit cloudy can be fun and I imagine the people who would truly hate it would hate figuring out quests in general and they would probably just use guides for everything.
Thinking about a "a bit cloudy".. I think it was the druid epic in EQ1 where at some points players had to hand in an object to an NPC but it was not clear which... So hundreds of players finished by handing in the hard earned object to random NPCs (and loosing the object in the process), start over the epic and test another NPC. If I remember well, there was even a website to coordinate all this cross-server. Speaking of hard-core, cloudy bits in quests.
Incase anyone from VR is reading this... I put the loss of quest items like that into the column of cruel and unusual design. Give us a mystery or as some would call it, a quest. Going around and asking dozens of NPC druids if they recognize the mcguffin would be fine. Have fun searching for the necessary hermit.
dorotea said:"The ogres claim that the Wos Che assisted the Revenant during the Deicide War and the Wos Che adamantly say they did not. So, someone is lying. "
Now, if there was a kind of "no key word" quest (like old school EQ) that depended on Lore nerds knowing just this sort of thing? i.e. says group member in group chat to the group" but the Wos Che DID assist the revanent in the decide war by providing grain and ground troops according to the chronicles of soandso" to which the nerd would reply something about ground troops or grain/provisions that unlocked something or other...THAT would be ok to me and a nod to the Lore nerds and hopefully satisfying to them. I would not take that away from them.
Jobeson said:Incase anyone from VR is reading this... I put the loss of quest items like that into the column of cruel and unusual design. Give us a mystery or as some would call it, a quest. Going around and asking dozens of NPC druids if they recognize the mcguffin would be fine. Have fun searching for the necessary hermit.
Let us just be clear... I don't think that was something I would have enjoyed, and if a game would inflict that to me, I would probably just quit it.