I believe very strongly that a world that feels alive should tell a coherent story without any text or dialogue needed. This means that locations and the denizens of those locations should exist in a logically consistent manner that aligns with the reality of the world.
It is one thing to plunk a bunch of assets in the world - like camps and NPCs in those camps - but it is another thing entirely to provide the environmental storytelling that supports everything about what is there and who inhabits it.
For example, a gnoll camp could be placed anywhere, and adventurers will gladly kill them. That is simple to do. However, it makes so much more sense if it is placed somewhere the gnolls would need to be based on their goals and needs. What is their motivation for setting up there? Is it because they are scouting the area for a larger force? Do they need resources? These questions should be answerable, else they are just fodder for experience and loot.
Even NPCs that have less sentience, like a simple undead skeleton that wanders aimlessly, should have some reason for being there. If the dead walk, there should be dark magic nearby that fuels this. EverQuest did, at times, a decent to excellent job of this. Guk, for example, does sort of tell its own story, and even has things like Troll prisoners to show that clearly the Frogloks and Trolls battled there, and that the battle ended horrifically. I hope Pantheon expands on that much further and creates a vivid world that seems natural, as though it came together because the locations, resources, and motivations of the denizens led to that outcome over time, not because a game designer needed to provide some camp spots for sweet loot.
I think a large part is in how big of a role or part the player character holds in the world. Not much takes me off and out of the game and world than being some sort of "chosen one", "Picked by destiny" stuff or being some sort of mega powerful ultra-godkiller of glorious doom.
Keeping the role much more grounded, the PC being not much stronger than the average town guard or such, maybe even weaker, helps make one feel part of the world I feel. What differentiates a player from a guard is them taking up the call of adventure, to help out people far and wide and slap som baddies, explore the world, etc.
Another note though, I quite like MMOs with a ton of factions that lets you gain their reputation, even if the only reward is to have them become non-hostile. Being able to change allegiance through work and actions with most able-thinking races, factions and such helps quite a bit feel part of it all.
@Exchronus hope to read more of your posts soon. I have had a simular thought bouncing around in my head but was having dificulty expressing it. You did a excelent job.
While the above seems like a pefect answer to the question I will add my own response.
People and most importantly a reason for people to interect with on another. Some examples to better ilistrate my meaning would be grouping, this one is relitivly obvius. But maybe less obvius would be being rescued from certien death or rescuing another complete stranger with no questions asked.
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In a small protest to this outdated forums I did not bother to spell check this post
I think FFXIV does a stellar job at the "little" things, for example:
- "Population" NPCs that are not meant to be interacted with, but just "live" in the world and go about their business. Oftentimes you can also walk nearby some NPCs standing together and listen in to their everyday talk.
- Fates (active events) also support this, where you have NPCs who run into a problem (like a traveling merchant finding his way blocked by monsters) and you can help them out if you want
- Music themes changing with day and night
To add to the "everyday" talk I mentioned above: I also love it if NPCs react to things I am doing or have done. NPCs usually have different dialog when you meet them, while you have an active quest for them, and once you finish the quest. Its really nice to follow these dialogs :)
Arbeor said:A dangerous world. As soon as I have to respect the world around me it becomes alive.
This is very true for me. Running through some zones in EQ or between some cities in UO, I would feel sheer panic. The element of danger is a sure-fire way to get my attention.
The world has to be dynamic and manifest change. This change, or vitality, should be grounded in a variety of ways; it ought to be reflected in small, large, overt and inconspicuous ways throughout the world. Change should also be frequently unexpected where possible. Once a player experiences the world in repetative, static loops, I think the experience of 'aliveness' diminishes.
For example, the player understands that the whole activity of an NPC is only walking in the same loop and perhaps speaking the same few phrases again and again is mechanical and not alive. Even an occasional, unpredictable 'break' in this NPCs behaviour or what they say immediately captures the interest and makes it curious and interesting to the player. Another example might be the arrangement of flora (in this case flowers) that grow in a forest. If that flora appears the same always, there is no change, no aliveness. But if those blooms spread or grow bigger say after a rain then there is change and something visually different. Or blooms that grow (or glow) only in moonlight. The player becomes aware of this and understands that the world is more dynamic rather than static.
Also, I always felt the more my character could 'physically' interact in the world, the more real and 'alive' the overall experiece is. One reason I really love climbing in Pantheon! In particular, I appreciate the sense of entering buildings and being able to involve my character in the contents therein (ESO did this well). I really believe the more a game allows players/characters the autonomy to interact with the environment, the more alive it seems.
For me, one of the biggest things I would like to see is that every creature and mob does something other than waiting to be killed. Seeing the fauna moving about hunting, running away, eating even playing would create a scape that felt alive. In an ideal game (for me) I would love to see different states for all npcs from (for instance) going on duty (patrolling, guarding, etc.) to training, eating, chatting, and sleeping and moving to different locations to do those actions.
Having mobs make better use of their senses would be good too. Not just line of sight, but reacting to sounds too, maybe even smells. What about a wolf pack that comes across your scent trail and tracks you down for instance?
This all adds to how alive the world would feel and having to constantly be aware of your surroundings because nothing is static would add to the feeling of peril for any group. As OakKnower said, change is key to a world that is meant to feel alive. Everything from day/night, seasonal weather, terrain effects (e.g. mud when it rains) mobile and active fauna. Even changes to flora when the seasons change would add to the overall impression of something real and alive.
I would love to see interactions between faction based groups too, good and bad. From villages coming together to create a temp market, to raiding and all out wars.
I know some of this is already there, but if it was all in, then for me, this would be a truely alive world.
chenzeme said:For me, one of the biggest things I would like to see is that every creature and mob does something other than waiting to be killed. Seeing the fauna moving about hunting, running away, eating even playing would create a scape that felt alive. In an ideal game (for me) I would love to see different states for all npcs from (for instance) going on duty (patrolling, guarding, etc.) to training, eating, chatting, and sleeping and moving to different locations to do those actions.
We had some great ideas here. For me, a world that is alive is a dangerous world that I respect, where I am part of it (and not, as mentioned, some super entity) and that actually lives. I understand that it is early still, but I was a bit sadened by the sight of Cohh's streaming where the starting point masters where static (I know, they will be relocated, and it is not that easy since you do not want the players to have to chase the master and scroll vendor all over the city... but you could very well imagine that masters and vendors sleep at night), and by the goblin cave streaming where the goblins were just static cave dwellers. Don't they patrol, go eat, go hunt outside the cave just to come back with some food for the rest of the colony ? It felt very EQesque with camps and pull tactics and named placeholders, but it feels artificial.
And as someone else mentioned, towns also should feel alive. A tavern should have people that laugh and drink and play cards or dice. Once you have all these people going about their scripted life, you can add quests that will feel that more immersive.
Getting a sense that things are going on even in places that my character is not. (the world doesn't revolve around my character)
Places that are not dangerous can feel alive. In cities or towns having NPC's talking to each other and going about their business is helpful. Having music going at a local pub, maybe someone getting booted out of that same pub for causing trouble, having NPC's have multilpe things to do or say rather than repeating the same phrase over and over. NPC's that go to different locations at different times of day.
Out in the wild danger is definitely important. If my character decides to go sniffing around an area that he has no business being in I should feel scared as the player. I should know I'm taking a risk and I likely will not get away with it.
NPC's should not all treat me the same way and know who I am just because I exist. If I have not made a name for myself there is no reason certain NPC's will have heard of me.
Solving problems in more than one way could help make the world feel alive. The solution maybe shouldn't always be "kill them." Maybe there are other ways that could exist sometimes.
a big one for me would be not being able to obviously see where mob spawn regions are while walking through the world. I dont think pantheon will suffer much from this though due to mob density being main factor to make that obvious. but in fast pace mmo's you'll be walking through the map and be able to visualize an oval shaped area crammed with 20-100 mobs all locked in one field or something with a nice safe trail 5 feet away. would definately like to see mobs pathing across roads on occasion as well.
Savanja said:Sometimes when you step into a game world, you feel a distinct sense of vitality and liveliness. It transcends graphic stype, and sometimes even player population. What are the things, little and big, that make a world feel alive for you?
Well, it sure isn't NPCs just stupidly standing there, static, in the same place hour after hour, day after day. For a world to be alive, there must be movement. Yes, if an NPCs is set to be a guard, it should stand at its post, but beyond that....move. Go somewhere, do something you stupid NPCs. I'm surprised at this day and age, 20+ years into the MMO genre and we still have worlds dominated by static NPCs. Boring. Old. Stale.
Nabren said: @Vandraad -- vendors are also welcome to stay static, but I wouldn't mind having to find my guild master in multiple places, as long as guards might be able to provide a hint as to where the heck they are at the moment, haha
Vendors can move about inside their shop/store, doing various things in their shop. The baker can be baking bread, the smith forging weapons, etc. Just not standing there behind the counter 24/7/365.
My observations from various example MMORPG worlds are the following:
WoW:
- it has many non-stationary NPCs, which go around, patrol, do their every-day stuff -> NPCs live their lives
LOTRO:
- it used to have (quest) NPCs that are only visible at night (i.e. ghost in Bree) -> this makes the world more dynamic
GW2:
- if you go into major cities, you'll hear NPC conversations, some hint to quest, others are just for entertainment -> feels even more alive than WoW's non-stationary NPCs
- the random events in the open world, that make players come back to low-level zones
Black Desert:
- wlaking, talking NPCs, NPCs that are only visible at night (black market vendors), NPCs in the open world
- overall they seem to have GTA-like NPCs that spawn everywhere; when you go into a big city, you will see a lot of people walking around
- knowledge system where you can get to know NPCs better -> gives the NPCs a deeper dimension
Vandraad said:Nabren said: @Vandraad -- vendors are also welcome to stay static, but I wouldn't mind having to find my guild master in multiple places, as long as guards might be able to provide a hint as to where the heck they are at the moment, hahaVendors can move about inside their shop/store, doing various things in their shop. The baker can be baking bread, the smith forging weapons, etc. Just not standing there behind the counter 24/7/365.
That's fair, I probably should have clarified just in the general vicinity. While some travelling merchants are cool, if all merchants wandered and were not predictable, that could be annoying when your bags are full :)
Maybe go full Skyrim-esque with merchants closing up shop and sleeping for the night would be a nice touch to see in an MMO? The only major difference is you probably won't have an easy way to automatically pass time to the next morning in an MMO :)
Nabren said:Vandraad said:Nabren said: @Vandraad -- vendors are also welcome to stay static, but I wouldn't mind having to find my guild master in multiple places, as long as guards might be able to provide a hint as to where the heck they are at the moment, hahaVendors can move about inside their shop/store, doing various things in their shop. The baker can be baking bread, the smith forging weapons, etc. Just not standing there behind the counter 24/7/365.
That's fair, I probably should have clarified just in the general vicinity. While some travelling merchants are cool, if all merchants wandered and were not predictable, that could be annoying when your bags are full :)
Maybe go full Skyrim-esque with merchants closing up shop and sleeping for the night would be a nice touch to see in an MMO? The only major difference is you probably won't have an easy way to automatically pass time to the next morning in an MMO :)
But there could be a totally different set of merchants that operate at night. We have 24hr stores in RL, but it's not always the same person working those 24 hrs.
Nabren said:Maybe go full Skyrim-esque with merchants closing up shop and sleeping for the night would be a nice touch to see in an MMO? The only major difference is you probably won't have an easy way to automatically pass time to the next morning in an MMO :)
You can fight the undead until dawn !
For me, the two most important factors are Verisimilitude, and Sense of Place.
Verisimilitude is like in-game "realism." The world and the game need to "make sense," I need to be able to reason about things adequately, with as few inconsistencies and as little arbitrariness as possible. I want to be able to play the game "in character."
The thing that really gripped me about EverQuest so long ago was the sense of being some place. Not just discovery, as awesome as that it, but also a sense of familiarity, of being home, or at least a familiar neighborhood.
Of course it's really the other players that make the game alive. I am hopeful for decent NPC behavior, and the Lore is already compelling, but if the world serves as a stage for me to act our my character's story, then that is what I want most.