I have to admit ive been really skeptical of the hopes of seeing the game ever launch but the recent Dev and Cohh streams were amazing and I find myself excited again, even for Alpha that may come towards end of next year.
There were a few things in the recent streams that I hope get tweaked over the course of time.
1) Purple club crawling around. I hated it. Id rather see you just drop unconcious and if you get lucky with a heal or bandage, then fine, but I really hated seeng the crawling around for what was a long time, it didnt look good. I also think there should not be any loss of aggro, thats like a lucky feign death that should only be available to certain classes.
2) I loved the swinging pendulum of the mez graphic but found it really too big and distracting and it didnt really hover over the mob, it looked a bit off to one side. Something smaller and directly over the mob would look better visually for me, like maybe a quarter of the size its now.
3) Definitly dont like the rogue being completely invisible in stealth to everyone including themselves unless you have a name plate, but then a floating only nameplate looks silly. I think I heard this was going to be tweaked to something we all are more used to seeing like a shaded character, so kudos there.
4) I like how the con system targeting works in EQ where the mob you target shows its con. I dont think I saw that in the streams but may have missed it. It looked like the targets were always same color to me, especially in Cohh's stream and the con color and message was only via a seperate text in chat?
5) Emergency bandage while fighting? Can we just say no to this like how can you bandage while something is beating on you?
Honestly even if they stayed as is and made it into final game release, it would not be terrible as the rest looked crazy good so far.
Deathwish said:
1) Purple club crawling around. I hated it. Id rather see you just drop unconcious and if you get lucky with a heal or bandage, then fine, but I really hated seeng the crawling around for what was a long time, it didnt look good. I also think there should not be any loss of aggro, thats like a lucky feign death that should only be available to certain classes.
I kinda disagree with you on this. I can think of situations where you would want to crawl away: fire, AoE near you, Boss that is strampling all around. Sometimes, as a severely wounded person, you may want to crawl away, and it comes with a penalty as you bleed to death faster. Now, as for the animation. I didn't mind it.
As long as they make dispositions that will double tap downed players sometimes it will add to the fear. Light the downed player on fire and force the party to save them instead of killing the enemy. When every assassin double taps and the party knows they can't mess anything up at all is a fun idea but not one the entire game needs to have. The fact that two warriors can duo together and if one goes down they are not always dealing with death mechanics but a long recovery I think is great.
Also worth keeping in mind the idea is crawling shortens your time on the ground. As long as they tune it well, the goal of crawling out of fire that will kill you faster or crawling out of the tent to die in a place for an easier corpse recovery is a fun concept. Crawling itself needs to be very punishing, I hope they can fine tune it to be just that. Perhaps it costs more resources the further you crawl. Move 3 feet out of danger could be a minor cost but moving 10 feet will have you dying just from bleeding out. I hope we are never really crawling more than 10 feet before dying or it just gets silly, even 10 feet feels silly.
With that said, I really hope we have a crawl movement to squeeze through tunnels. Hold crouch and you go prone and start crawling slowly. Squeeze into a tunnel too small for the dangerous monster to follow. The massive high level spider is patrolling by, quick everyone hide!
As for 5, combat medics are a thing in real life. But I hope the game follows the real life idea and doesn't let you heal up that way while being the current target of the attacks. Saving your ally while the combat happens around you is fine. Emergency treatment to stop your own bleeding then getting back into the fight also works as long as you are not the target being attacked during that window.
Deathwish makes good points but I will withhold judgment. The one thing I want to specifically second is that there shouldn't automatically be a feign death in the game. That should be a special ability limited to one or two classes as one of the class-defining skills.
On the other hand - by feign death I am referring to the fight being over and the enemies heading off and leaving a character alive. Loss of aggro is a very different thing entirely. It is more than reasonable for enemies to leave seriously wounded characters for later and switch to characters that can still kill them. It is only after the fight is over that one expects the enemies to finish off *all* characters other than those with a special ability to persuade the enemies that they are *already* fully dead.
this got me thinking about additional NPC dispositions
could there be soft, secondary or reactive dispositions? Possible secret expansion thirst-trap? "new skills! new quests! enemies now have SECONDARY dispositions! see if you can find out what they are!"
What I mean is the triggered (<- ha ha) "Coup de gras" disposition. If a Player Character is crawling: *pop* right to the head. Or call it a mafia disposition "bada-BING! and then pop, right to the head"
Rules: Coup de Gras is triggered only when 3 or greater players in secondary CdG aggro range are crawling. CdG aggro range is 50 yards. CdG aggro range is directional 35degree arc outward from NPC. NPC will put all crawling players on top of hate list and target all players crawling with single minded intent to eliminate crawling players ignoring all others (<- could be used as a strat for a multi group/raid event to "pull" a certain mob from a mini boss prep fight? before main event?)
Deathwish said:1) Purple club crawling around. I hated it. Id rather see you just drop unconcious and if you get lucky with a heal or bandage, then fine, but I really hated seeng the crawling around for what was a long time, it didnt look good. I also think there should not be any loss of aggro, thats like a lucky feign death that should only be available to certain classes.
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3) Definitly dont like the rogue being completely invisible in stealth to everyone including themselves unless you have a name plate, but then a floating only nameplate looks silly. I think I heard this was going to be tweaked to something we all are more used to seeing like a shaded character, so kudos there.
This is actually an important tool/thing to have in the game given the focus on challenge/difficulty and very large "zones." If the healer goes down and a group is deep in a dangerous dungeon then the group should have some means to recover if not everyone goes down. Working down into a dungeon for a long period of time and having a near wipe can be way too punishing. It also discourages taking risks or exploring less populated areas, both negatives for an MMO.
As for stealth? I think at best the player should see themselves in some transparency (though I am fine if invisible), but other players should not see them even if grouped. Add some value to utility spells/items like See Invisible.
Iksar said:This is actually an important tool/thing to have in the game given the focus on challenge/difficulty and very large "zones." If the healer goes down and a group is deep in a dangerous dungeon then the group should have some means to recover if not everyone goes down.
I kinda agree here... and let us not forget that the world of Terminus is filled with magic. I could imagine that a sort of magical bandage exists that allows you to heal a fighter while he is hitting stuff or gets pummeled. Make it so that the guys getting bandaged can't move while he is bandaged, or the bandaging is interrupted, and there you go.
Deathwish said:1) Purple club crawling around. I hated it. Id rather see you just drop unconcious and if you get lucky with a heal or bandage, then fine, but I really hated seeng the crawling around for what was a long time, it didnt look good. I also think there should not be any loss of aggro, thats like a lucky feign death that should only be available to certain classes.
I like what I've seen of it and it feels like it's both more realistic and more fun. It's unrealistic to be 100% unimpaired at 1 HP, then get 1 paper-cut worth of damage and be stone dead. I do think some dispositions should continue to target downed players.
2) I loved the swinging pendulum of the mez graphic but found it really too big and distracting and it didnt really hover over the mob, it looked a bit off to one side. Something smaller and directly over the mob would look better visually for me, like maybe a quarter of the size its now.
I agree it needs to remain directly above the mob. I hope the art changes a bit, either by changing color to be multi-color or by changing the pocket watch to a symbol that's specific to the caster (like their deity). Keep the chain and the swinging.
5) Emergency bandage while fighting? Can we just say no to this like how can you bandage while something is beating on you?
So long as the person doing it is more vulnerable to damage, I'm all for it. This makes it risky and thus a tactical decision.
Deathwish said:1) Purple club crawling around. I hated it. Id rather see you just drop unconcious and if you get lucky with a heal or bandage, then fine, but I really hated seeng the crawling around for what was a long time, it didnt look good. I also think there should not be any loss of aggro, thats like a lucky feign death that should only be available to certain classes.
Not against the concept of moving whilst near death, but crawling does look a bit odd and I guess would cause some clipping issues on slopes as 4 limbs rather than 2. Before art team invests time maybe a better bet would be:
- A knock down for a few seconds
- Followed by players getting up , but in an exausted / near death standing pose (arms drooped, back hunched etc.)
- Can also tint them red and / or put a symbol over them to make it clear
- Also agree, should lower agro but not drop.
Manouk said:this got me thinking about additional NPC dispositions
could there be soft, secondary or reactive dispositions? Possible secret expansion thirst-trap? "new skills! new quests! enemies now have SECONDARY dispositions! see if you can find out what they are!"
What I mean is the triggered (<- ha ha) "Coup de gras" disposition. If a Player Character is crawling: *pop* right to the head. Or call it a mafia disposition "bada-BING! and then pop, right to the head"
Rules: Coup de Gras is triggered only when 3 or greater players in secondary CdG aggro range are crawling. CdG aggro range is 50 yards. CdG aggro range is directional 35degree arc outward from NPC. NPC will put all crawling players on top of hate list and target all players crawling with single minded intent to eliminate crawling players ignoring all others (<- could be used as a strat for a multi group/raid event to "pull" a certain mob from a mini boss prep fight? before main event?)
Well just more "Coup de grâce", because "Coup de gras" means "Fat strike".
Mauvais_Oeil said:Well just more "Coup de grâce", because "Coup de gras" means "Fat strike".
I was itching to make the remark, but then as an ogress, I didn't want to go into the "fat" stuff... that makes me always hungry and I don't have any 'nome anymore in my fridge. Have to go hunting.
Iksar said:This is actually an important tool/thing to have in the game given the focus on challenge/difficulty and very large "zones." If the healer goes down and a group is deep in a dangerous dungeon then the group should have some means to recover if not everyone goes down. Working down into a dungeon for a long period of time and having a near wipe can be way too punishing. It also discourages taking risks or exploring less populated areas, both negatives for an MMO.
As for stealth? I think at best the player should see themselves in some transparency (though I am fine if invisible), but other players should not see them even if grouped. Add some value to utility spells/items like See Invisible.
I agree with Iksar on both points here.
As for the con system, did they even use it? They knew it was a level appropriate dungeon, plus Minus mentioned seeing levels is part of the dev tools.
Iksar said:Deathwish said:1) Purple club crawling around. I hated it. Id rather see you just drop unconcious and if you get lucky with a heal or bandage, then fine, but I really hated seeng the crawling around for what was a long time, it didnt look good. I also think there should not be any loss of aggro, thats like a lucky feign death that should only be available to certain classes.
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This is actually an important tool/thing to have in the game given the focus on challenge/difficulty and very large "zones." If the healer goes down and a group is deep in a dangerous dungeon then the group should have some means to recover if not everyone goes down. Working down into a dungeon for a long period of time and having a near wipe can be way too punishing. It also discourages taking risks or exploring less populated areas, both negatives for an MMO.
I have always thought of going purple as hitting zero HP so you go unconscious but not dead, just mostly dead and you either got a heal or bandage or you died very quickly if not attended to. Going purple for what looked like a good minute just crawling around the ground is not very realistic and if you can crawl, then you can do all other actions, cast a spell, bandage, drink a potion etc. I think when you are purple you basically should not be able to do anything and have to rely on someone else to administer aid and if you are crawling and moving, a mob standing over you would certainly not forget about you and think you were dead and drop aggro.
I hope it gets refined more during more testing to make it more lethal and debilitating when you do go purple to keep it more realistic.
Deathwish said:I have always thought of going purple as hitting zero HP so you go unconscious but not dead, just mostly dead and you either got a heal or bandage or you died very quickly if not attended to. Going purple for what looked like a good minute just crawling around the ground is not very realistic and if you can crawl, then you can do all other actions, cast a spell, bandage, drink a potion etc. I think when you are purple you basically should not be able to do anything and have to rely on someone else to administer aid and if you are crawling and moving, a mob standing over you would certainly not forget about you and think you were dead and drop aggro.
I hope it gets refined more during more testing to make it more lethal and debilitating when you do go purple to keep it more realistic.
As with many things for games, gameplay is more important than strict realism...though I can imagine someone on the verge of death not having the energy/ability to cast spells, bandage, or do much of anything but one last crawl with whatever adrenaline is left. And a mob doesn't forget about a downed person rather it has more pressing concerns given up to 5 other creatures are still actively trying to kill it; prioritize active threats.
But rest assured it will see refinement. Not sure it will be much more lethal as the purpose of this mechanic seems more based on recovering from near wipes, but I could be wrong.
Deathwish said:1) Purple club crawling around. I hated it. Id rather see you just drop unconcious and if you get lucky with a heal or bandage, then fine, but I really hated seeng the crawling around for what was a long time, it didnt look good. I also think there should not be any loss of aggro, thats like a lucky feign death that should only be available to certain classes.
I agree with this on some aspects. If you fall in combat, but are still moving, any enemy in a fight for their life will take you out (and certainly won't lose agro). If you fall unconcious however, they may mistake you for being dead, and that I could see as acceptable. I'm also good with the NPC dropping the PC from agro if they're unconcious... and then don't move... like a corpse. And then perhaps, very slowly, recover HP if no further damage is taken. I don't think this is anything like feign death (personally).
Deathwish said:2) I loved the swinging pendulum of the mez graphic but found it really too big and distracting and it didnt really hover over the mob, it looked a bit off to one side. Something smaller and directly over the mob would look better visually for me, like maybe a quarter of the size its now.
I believe the pendulum is supposed to be swinging in the target's face (to emulate hypnosis). So being above their head would be ineffective.
I will go with the floating square health bars everywhere and another floating square casting bar that appears below it with the exact information of the spell or action that the mob is doing ( like where did you get the lore to JUST KNOW what that particular mob is doing) , and in the background if multiple mobs EVEN MORE floating health bars is pretty dumb.
This is starting to 'look' like a WoW clone unfortunately, i wonder if there is a WoW dev in the mix somewhere.
Will also point out that the items in the inventory look too cartoony and feels like i'm playing with my 2 year olds Playskool toys look. That will also go with the goblin design, straight pulled out of Saturday morning cartoons.
Sraalok said:
This is starting to 'look' like a WoW clone unfortunately, i wonder if there is a WoW dev in the mix somewhere.
I have to disagree on this one. This looks nothing like WoW aside from the obvious fact that it is an MMO that requires an interface that players need to... you know, interface with.
I like some of the ideas in the thread about purple club. Maybe going purple and you drop and then have a choice, you can stay still without moving and you last longer and have a higher chance of staying off aggro or you can move but you lose health at accelerated rate to take into account moving while injured causes aggrevation and worsening of injuries and also the longer you move the higher chance of getting mobs attention again as you get in EQ with low health aggro. I could see this as an interesting mechanic trying to decide if its better to play possum or move ot get out of maybe AOE range and take your chances.
The bandaging while being attacked just doesnt work for me unless you throw in an additional mechanic in that attacks on you while being bandaged need to not only have a good chance of disrupting the bandage but also the attacks against you should get bonuses to hit and damage to take into account your reduced attention to defense. If you are emergency bandaging yourself while being attacked and you are looking to see if you are bandaging yourself in the right places, you are reduced dodging and defending so the attacks on you should gain an advanatge in between what a direct back assault advantage would get and frontal attacks. I still have a problem with it during combat, even if you are trying to bandage someone else because how can you effectively bandage somoene that is constantly moving and dodging and changing positions defending against attacks or being hit and moved around?
Maybe make this a class skill you have to learn and work to get better at to be more effective
Deathwish said:The bandaging while being attacked just doesnt work for me unless you throw in an additional mechanic in that attacks on you while being bandaged need to not only have a good chance of disrupting the bandage but also the attacks against you should get bonuses to hit and damage to take into account your reduced attention to defense. If you are emergency bandaging yourself while being attacked and you are looking to see if you are bandaging yourself in the right places, you are reduced dodging and defending so the attacks on you should gain an advanatge in between what a direct back assault advantage would get and frontal attacks. I still have a problem with it during combat, even if you are trying to bandage someone else because how can you effectively bandage somoene that is constantly moving and dodging and changing positions defending against attacks or being hit and moved around?
Maybe make this a class skill you have to learn and work to get better at to be more effective
I think if VR wants to make bandaging a skill based ability, that's cool. If they want to have it be slower or interruptable while being attacked, I think that'll be great too. If they make it so you just bandage normally while being attacked, it won't be any less immersive for me than when I'm casting a complicated spell that will heal every wound on your body while getting bashed in the face by an ogre.
I know everyone has their peeves. This is something that is easy to suspend belief about for me and take as is for the sake of the mechanic. Unless they change it to look like you're applying a magical ointment. Would that be better? Requires less attention and precision.
Feastycentral said:I would add that the bandages need to be crafted (OR bought off of a player vendor who crafted them ((economy)) no from a npc ) . And yes they would drop on death do to being in inventory , which makes death more consequencial . Would also add dropping all your gear so that crafters could make that coin by you buying retrieval sets of armor and weapons from them. Make Crafting Great Again 8P.Deathwish said:The bandaging while being attacked just doesnt work for me unless you throw in an additional mechanic in that attacks on you while being bandaged need to not only have a good chance of disrupting the bandage but also the attacks against you should get bonuses to hit and damage to take into account your reduced attention to defense. If you are emergency bandaging yourself while being attacked and you are looking to see if you are bandaging yourself in the right places, you are reduced dodging and defending so the attacks on you should gain an advanatge in between what a direct back assault advantage would get and frontal attacks. I still have a problem with it during combat, even if you are trying to bandage someone else because how can you effectively bandage somoene that is constantly moving and dodging and changing positions defending against attacks or being hit and moved around?
Maybe make this a class skill you have to learn and work to get better at to be more effective
I think if VR wants to make bandaging a skill based ability, that's cool. If they want to have it be slower or interruptable while being attacked, I think that'll be great too. If they make it so you just bandage normally while being attacked, it won't be any less immersive for me than when I'm casting a complicated spell that will heal every wound on your body while getting bashed in the face by an ogre.
I know everyone has their peeves. This is something that is easy to suspend belief about for me and take as is for the sake of the mechanic. Unless they change it to look like you're applying a magical ointment. Would that be better? Requires less attention and precision.
Grobobos said:Deathwish said:
1) Purple club crawling around. I hated it. Id rather see you just drop unconcious and if you get lucky with a heal or bandage, then fine, but I really hated seeng the crawling around for what was a long time, it didnt look good. I also think there should not be any loss of aggro, thats like a lucky feign death that should only be available to certain classes.
I kinda disagree with you on this. I can think of situations where you would want to crawl away: fire, AoE near you, Boss that is strampling all around. Sometimes, as a severely wounded person, you may want to crawl away, and it comes with a penalty as you bleed to death faster. Now, as for the animation. I didn't mind it.
Agreed! Makes more sense to provide a small window of opportunity to revive and get out of a tight spot then hit 0HP and then be dead without realizing!
Purple club: Drop aggro to lowest on the list in the group, but it climbs the list depending on who bandages the player back to health based on where the assisting party member was in terms of aggro. If more than one party member assists in bandaging, more aggro is transferred / more attention is drawn to the wounded player on the ground. Also, as a way to counterbalance aggro reduction, purple club could increase aggro to certain NPCs in the vicinity such as vultures, hyenas, rats, etc. looking for an easy meal. All of which might be lower in level overall but would pose a significant threat to anyone on their last limb.